*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012*

NoHarm1994

drbtrenier wrote: »

Anyone else nervous about results day yet?? Sometimes I forget about all this HPAT stuff, and then it comes back to me like a smack across the face! Every time I think about the 25th April it makes me so nervous, even though I can't do anything about it. I think maybe that's what's worst: the feeling of powerlessness. Scary how one 2 and half hour exam determines so much...

All the best to y'all anyway

Just a tad, the sooner we get them the better though! Its such a pain having it hover over you 24/7 :P What does everyone think will be a sufficient Hpat score this year to get medicine? (Obviously it depends on the L.C)

spasmaster

Patri wrote: »

spasmaster wrote: »

I believe a there will be a points raise of 15-20 points this year for each college. So the the cut off will probably around 745-750 for galyway and 755-760 for trinity.

Based on what? It's fairly hard to predict the rise this year because of the extra twenty five points for maths, it'll be interesting to see what the points are though!

Well, hpat scores go up by 10 each year and there will be extra 5 for maths now.

drbtrenier

NoHarm1994 wrote: »

Just a tad, the sooner we get them the better though! Its such a pain having it hover over you 24/7 :P What does everyone think will be a sufficient Hpat score this year to get medicine? (Obviously it depends on the L.C)

Its pretty hard to tell, but simply based on my own feelings that HPAT results are going to improve again this year, I'd say minimum 185, plus pretty much a perfect leaving. Otherwise 200+ and a 550+ leaving. That's not really based on anything though!

hollingr

Don't get too lost in speculation, it's bad for your health!

It's not sustainable for the scores to increase 10-15 points year on year as the trend has been so far. Acer will be under huge pressure to ensure the scores begin to taper off and the overall scores should 'theoretically' be comparable year on year... I'd like to see their definition of comparable.

If they can't make it fit and the points keep going up and up then serious questions will be asked of their test system and whether it is the solution to choosing candidates for medicine.. Can see interviews coming in in the next few years if this trend continues.

I really think they will be pushing for tighter scores this year or alternatively try and blame honours maths for any further increases!

drbtrenier

So @hollingr, do you see the hpat scores perhaps staying a little bit steadier this year, rather than increasing by 10 or so again? I know, you're absolutely right, there's not really much point in speculating, but I just cant wait to find out one way or the other. Really wishing 25th april would hurry up already!

hollingr

Pretty hard not to think about it now and then but going through the permutations and combinations just makes it worse!

I'd say with the honours maths a jump is inevitable, but it's all guesswork til the 25th! 1 month to go..

finality

Sorry but what has honours maths to do with hpat scores?

hollingr

It's not directly related, but the extra points for honours maths this year will give a lot of people attempting to get into medicine a nice bump up in scores.

An A1 in honours maths can push someone with 525 up to 550 - and into contention if they have a competitive hpat. Or, someone with 600 and an A1 in hons maths will be up to 625 (i.e an extra 5 points to the final med score)

An extra 5 points can be the difference between getting in or not for most people..

Stalin and rugby

finality wrote: »

Sorry but what has honours maths to do with hpat scores?

Bonus 25 for people doing maths, works out to be 5 in the end. Or if you're asking about Hollingrs reference to permutations and Combinations, it has nothing to do with anything but if you use those words you sound smart

hollingr

its not 5 points if you got under 550 stalin, that's where it's going to make the most difference! (speaking as someone using a previous l.c of 520 to try and get in this year! )

Stalin and rugby

hollingr wrote: »

its not 5 points if you got under 550 stalin, that's where it's going to make the most difference.

Given the extreme competition I don't think you're in any contention if you get any under 550. All about getting the 625 saying that I run the risk of getting absolutely hammered....

hollingr

People have gotten in with as low as 515! Not the norm though, i'll give you that.

A strong hpat can compensate for a below 550 l.c.. although obviously it makes more sense to put the work into the leaving cert and not need to rely on an exceptional hpat which is much trickier to achieve and very difficult to actually 'study' for.

finality

Stalin and rugby wrote: »

Given the extreme competition I don't think you're in any contention if you get any under 550. All about getting the 625 saying that I run the risk of getting absolutely hammered....

Not if you have an exceptional hpat. :P

And yeah but the hpat scores themselves have been increasing each year, if they increase again this year that will be completely unrelated to honours maths. :pac:

NoHarm1994

Lads at the end of the day Hpat results need to be forgotten about for the next month! Just give the L.C. beans until the 25th haha

Patri

Stalin and rugby wrote: »

Given the extreme competition I don't think you're in any contention if you get any under 550. All about getting the 625 saying that I run the risk of getting absolutely hammered....

I dono! I mean I'm up to 551 with the honors maths which is just 14 points off the maximum leaving cert. Otherwise based on last years rules, I'd be 30 points off the maximum! The extra 16 points would have had me in medicine this year with a few points to spare, so I'd expect with a decent hpat anyone 540 or upwards is in with a brilliant chance We just need to see how far theses damn points go up in August....

Somalion

spasmaster wrote: »

I believe a there will be a points raise of 15-20 points this year for each college. So the the cut off will probably around 745-750 for galyway and 755-760 for trinity.

While I'd tend to agree it's been increasing every year, last year the HPAT scores were considerably inflated. With the addition of the extra points for honours maths it could be possible that the HPAT score drops by a few points this year. Remember that last year the colleges had to bring down their points requirements second round to get people into the course. While I wouldn't be surprised at them increasing the overall points I think it may not make a difference as they'll probably come right back down second round.

finality

Somalion wrote: »

While I'd tend to agree it's been increasing every year, last year the HPAT scores were considerably inflated. With the addition of the extra points for honours maths it could be possible that the HPAT score drops by a few points this year. Remember that last year the colleges had to bring down their points requirements second round to get people into the course. While I wouldn't be surprised at them increasing the overall points I think it may not make a difference as they'll probably come right back down second round.

Er....there was no second round for any medicine course in the country last year, as far as I'm aware. And the colleges have nothing to do with the points going up or down.

Somalion

finality wrote: »

Er....there was no second round for any medicine course in the country last year, as far as I'm aware. And the colleges have nothing to do with the points going up or down.

I might have been wrong to say second round however Trinity started at 741 and finished at 739. While I agree colleges don't have anything to do with points going up or down, I never said they did, what I was stating was at least one college had to lower it's points to get people into Medicine last year even after, what I saw as, a much higher scoring HPAT test. I can't see them increasing the HPAT even further now, if anything I would have said they'd use the extra points for maths as an excuse not to increase the points for the HPAT again this year. That's just my theory on it though, could be way way off.

This is the article with the initial score (couldn't find a CAO initial score sheet anywhere!) http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2011/08/breaking-news-cao-points-requirement-for-medicine-continues-to-climb.html

These are the actual final points requirements: http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/assets/pdf/TCD_2011_Minimum_Entry_Points.pdf

Also, the HPAT has come in for massive criticism and is looking like it'll be scrapped. The big issue with it was it was initially going to even up the gender difference in medicine. The first year it did achieve that and looked good but ever since then it has been shown that it can be studied for and this has resulted in the gender split reverting to how it was when it was only the LC determining medicine entry. If the points increase once again for medicine it's going to have people saying that it's no better than just using the LC and as such the HPAT will be scrapped. They don't want that to happen so what I can see is slightly lower HPAT scores and slightly higher LC scores this year. Take that with a pinch of salt though as I'm not the first person to make a prediction on the points system in Ireland and get it horrendously wrong.

finality

Somalion wrote: »

I might have been wrong to say second round however Trinity started at 741 and finished at 739. While I agree colleges don't have anything to do with points going up or down, I never said they did, what I was stating was at least one college had to lower it's points to get people into Medicine last year even after, what I saw as, a much higher scoring HPAT test. I can't see them increasing the HPAT even further now, if anything I would have said they'd use the extra points for maths as an excuse not to increase the points for the HPAT again this year. That's just my theory on it though, could be way way off.

This is the article with the initial score (couldn't find a CAO initial score sheet anywhere!) http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2011/08/breaking-news-cao-points-requirement-for-medicine-continues-to-climb.html

These are the actual final points requirements: http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/assets/pdf/TCD_2011_Minimum_Entry_Points.pdf

But there aren't people sitting around increasing or decreasing the points based on arbitrary criteria - the thing is, people are just scoring higher in general. Say there are 80 places on a course - the points the 80th best person got are the points for that year. The only reason for the 2 point drop in Trinity I can think of would be that the article got it wrong.

Somalion

finality wrote: »

But there aren't people sitting around increasing or decreasing the points based on arbitrary criteria - the thing is, people are just scoring higher in general. Say there are 80 places on a course - the points the 80th best person got are the points for that year. The only reason for the 2 point drop in Trinity I can think of would be that the article got it wrong.

I know it didn't get it wrong because I was there the day the first points requirements were announced and it was 741. I'll get you some more articles with the same score. Here's another one from the Irish Times http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0822/1224302808028.html Says the same score for medicine in Trinity. Also, this article references a small number of hopeful medicine students that will be getting good news in the second round offers http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/3300-get-second-round-cao-offer-166099.html I might add that the Irish Medical Times wouldn't get something like that wrong.

As for the people doing better part, you're right they are but what this shows is that, even with higher scores in the HPAT, TCD had to reduce its points (I know only by 2 but it is still significant.) This ever increasing system won't keep going the way it is, eventually a perfect 300 in the HPAT and at least 550 will be needed to even be in with a shout at medicine. They're going to want to buck the trend soon otherwise the whole thing becomes a mess.

The whole arbitrary criteria thing I don't quite understand since every year they try to manipulate the Leaving Cert scores so they stay roughly similar. As such, the only thing that is pushing up scores is the HPAT's increasing points and they're going to want to reel that in before the system becomes completely unsustainable.

hollingr

Don't get too carried away.. any 200+ score in the hpat is very exceptional and there is no indication that this is changing over the past 3 years. If you look at the results graphs the number of people getting over 200 hasn't changed in any meanginful way since the exams insheeption..

The raw hpat scores are tallied, put through a statistical evaluation, then weighted by a mystical mathematical formula in order to manipulate the data into a nice little bell curve. All that will change year on year is the weighting system, so they can get data to fit the curve.

Somalion

hollingr wrote: »

Don't get too carried away.. any 200+ score in the hpat is very exceptional and there is no indication that this is changing over the past 3 years. If you look at the results graphs the number of people getting over 200 hasn't changed in any meanginful way since the exams insheeption..

The raw hpat scores are tallied, put through a statistical evaluation, then weighted by a mystical mathematical formula in order to manipulate the data into a nice little bell curve. All that will change year on year is the weighting system, so they can get data to fit the curve.

I wouldn't suggest at all that the numbers getting unreal scores are changing too much. The highest possible score has increased each year since its insheeption (love the use of insheeption :P). What I'm really saying is that each year that the majority of the scores in the bell curve (the main area of it) are higher than previous years. This trend hasn't really shown any signs of slowing down either. Now, my example of everyone needing 300 and 550 to be in with a shot was obviously way exaggerated It was just to make the point that we can't keep a system in which the points each year for medicine increase. It's no better than having just the LC then! And, as the LC is moderated to keep grades relatively consistent each year, it comes down to the HPAT to change what's happening.

hollingr

you are right about the bell curve peak moving slightly to the right each year, weighing can only go so far!

The test makers will argue that the hpat is a better indicator of the suitability of the candidates to due medicine, since 600 points in the leaving is not a very good indicator of interpersonal skills and other things which would be crucial to a successful career in medicine.

Acer claim to measure different aspects of intelligence (such as emotional intelligence) that give a better idea of who would make a good doctor. Personally I think it is a slightly better test of overall intelligence than the leaving, but not by much. Also, if we could peak into how they come up with the weighing there would probably be uproar about how unfair it is.

A much better system would incorporate interviews and would take into account similar elements as entry by mature student path such as life experience, motivation, and evidence of interest/exposure to the career and what you're getting yourself in for.

Somalion

hollingr wrote: »

you are right about the bell curve peak moving slightly to the right each year, weighing can only go so far!

The test makers will argue that the hpat is a better indicator of the suitability of the candidates to due medicine, since 600 points in the leaving is not a very good indicator of interpersonal skills and other things which would be crucial to a successful career in medicine.

Acer claim to measure different aspects of intelligence (such as emotional intelligence) that give a better idea of who would make a good doctor. Personally I think it is a slightly better test of overall intelligence than the leaving, but not by much. Also, if we could peak into how they come up with the weighing there would probably be uproar about how unfair it is.

A much better system would incorporate interviews and would take into account similar elements as entry by mature student path such as life experience, motivation, and evidence of interest/exposure to the career and what you're getting yourself in for.

I can't argue with any of this My main issue with the HPAT would be how big a difference studying for it can make. In theory it's a good idea but when studying can be done for it it eliminates the value of it. As for the interviews, that's exactly what the Australian system has. They have school results, UMAT (HPAT) results and interviews. Naturally we decided to take their system from ACER but leave out the interviews, since we like only doing things halfway

I like the idea of the interviews and taking into account the aspects of the mature student entry system, do you reckon we could ever properly implement it? I suppose that's the biggest issue with a lot of these things, implementation. I'd love to see a system like that brought in because I feel very sorry for the LC student having to work so very hard for this. I've a number of friends who busted their asses and didn't get it, missed by only a point or two. I suppose I'm in that category too

QueenOfLeon

finality wrote: »

Er....there was no second round for any medicine course in the country last year, as far as I'm aware. And the colleges have nothing to do with the points going up or down.

There have been 2nd, 3rd and even further rounds for most colleges in the last few years. Last year the points were:

Trinity 741* (739* on 2nd round)
UCD 738 (735 on 2nd round)
UCC 734 (no 2nd round, 733* final)
RCSI 733* (732 on 2nd round)
NUIG 729* (729 on 2nd round, 728* final)

I'm getting this from a previous post of my own, I'm not sure where exactly I can point you to a source as the CAO points spreadsheet only gives the points of the very last offer that was given out, but I am 100% certain that those are the figures from last year.

Generally once there is a drop in one of the colleges there will always be a knock on effect to the ones with lower points, eg, if someone in Trinity declines their place, it may be offered to someone who had accepted UCD, so now their place becomes available.

Almost all of the time you will get 2nd round offers going out, people decline courses for all sorts of reasons or may decide to repeat or defer. You just might not see that there is any change, for example Trinity with 741* random selection may have offered places to 5 more people on 741 in the second round and their published score would still be 741*.

finality

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

There have been 2nd, 3rd and even further rounds for most colleges in the last few years. Last year the points were:

Trinity 741* (739* on 2nd round)
UCD 738 (735 on 2nd round)
UCC 734 (no 2nd round, 733* final)
RCSI 733* (732 on 2nd round)
NUIG 729* (729 on 2nd round, 728* final)

I'm getting this from a previous post of my own, I'm not sure where exactly I can point you to a source as the CAO points spreadsheet only gives the points of the very last offer that was given out, but I am 100% certain that those are the figures from last year.

Generally once there is a drop in one of the colleges there will always be a knock on effect to the ones with lower points, eg, if someone in Trinity declines their place, it may be offered to someone who had accepted UCD, so now their place becomes available.

Almost all of the time you will get 2nd round offers going out, people decline courses for all sorts of reasons or may decide to repeat or defer. You just might not see that there is any change, for example Trinity with 741* random selection may have offered places to 5 more people on 741 in the second round and their published score would still be 741*.

Ah ok, sorry about that. Looks like I interpreted it incorrectly.

hollingr

I think it's very dishonest that they tell people 'officially' that you can't study for it, that studying won't make a difference, but behind closed doors they know full well from their experience in Australia that practise can improve your score significantly.

Mankind is yet to come up with an intelligence test that isn't "study-able" for. By doing even minimal practise of a particular type of test, your score improves, simply by exposure to that type of test. There are a finite number of problem types they throw at you in the HPAT, and you can hone your skills for each type with extensive practise.

For instance, you can go from being terrible at truth/false logic in section 1 to a whiz at it in a pretty short space of time with the right guidance. You can learn to spot logical fallacies in dense but short paragraphs, learn to speed read, improve clerical accuracy, get faster at doing simple maths without a calculator, improve graph interpretation skills, (I could go on all night). There are also many different techniques and approaches you can use for section 3 and knowing which work best for which question type will improve your speed and ultimately your score.

Somalion

I'd agree hollingr, it's a dishonest system. The proof is out there, I know people who came up by 35-40 points in the HPAT after studying for it. I suppose the only other method would be the interviews that you mentioned earlier I just don't see them implementing them properly, I wish they would though!

drbtrenier

Well, I'm not quite sure that they specifically say you can't study for it, but it is implied. I'm quoting here from the HPAT website: Intensive preparation is not advisable or necessary...

They do go on to say though (and this not me taking acer's side, I also wish they were more honest and open about the test in general!)

... wide and critical reading may provide helpful preparation for Sections 1 and 2. However, as with any test, some practice in answering questions of a similar type, and under similar time constraints as those found in the real test, is helpful and reassuring to most candidates.

Oh well, complaining here about acer isn't really going to make any difference to the results!

hollingr

I would lean towards the argument that intense preparation is advisable and entirely necessary if you want to see a significant score improvement!

I'll bite my tongue though until I actually get my results, I could be cursing, f'ing and blinding preparation courses in 4 weeks time