Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

merlante

Based on what we've seen from Waterford in the game:
- Eoin McGrath not up to it.
- Brick HF experiment has to continue because we have no choice.
- Seamus Prendergast is no longer up to it and hasn't been for a long time.
- Start Gavin O'Brien.
- Start/keep starting Martin O'Neill.
- Drop Nagle (please, never play him in defense again).
- Drop Iggy. It's easy for keepers to hide because 80% of the time they are not expected to save shots. But good keepers pull off saves. Iggy made himself so small for those shots that I couldn't imagine him saving any of them, not if you replayed the situation a thousand times. Where is Power?

Pretty poor stuff.

deisedude

merlante wrote: »

Based on what we've seen from Waterford in the game:
- Eoin McGrath not up to it.
- Brick HF experiment has to continue because we have no choice.
- Seamus Prendergast is no longer up to it and hasn't been for a long time.
- Start Gavin O'Brien.
- Start/keep starting Martin O'Neill.
- Drop Nagle (please, never play him in defense again).
- Drop Iggy. It's easy for keepers to hide because 80% of the time they are not expected to save shots. But good keepers pull off saves. Iggy made himself so small for those shots that I couldn't imagine him saving any of them, not if you replayed the situation a thousand times. Where is Power?

Pretty poor stuff.

Spot on, i'd agree with everything there

deisebhoy17

merlante wrote: »

Based on what we've seen from Waterford in the game:
- Eoin McGrath not up to it.
- Brick HF experiment has to continue because we have no choice.
- Seamus Prendergast is no longer up to it and hasn't been for a long time.
- Start Gavin O'Brien.
- Start/keep starting Martin O'Neill.
- Drop Nagle (please, never play him in defense again).
- Drop Iggy. It's easy for keepers to hide because 80% of the time they are not expected to save shots. But good keepers pull off saves. Iggy made himself so small for those shots that I couldn't imagine him saving any of them, not if you replayed the situation a thousand times. Where is Power?

Pretty poor stuff.

Still think seamus prendergast has something to offer if used properly. massive physical presence in the forwards something were very much lacking

lovelypoint

Congrats to Coláiste na nDéise on their Harty Cup win. A great performance, really took the game by the scruff of the neck from the start, with the goal by Cathal Curran symbolic of their intent. Great to see such appetite from a Waterford team, especially over several games and would love to see them give the All Ireland a good rattle now.

As regards the league, a disappointing performance from Waterford, and would largely agree with most of the observations above. I know we were missing quite a few, but the soft goals and danger afforded Cork by slack Waterford defending, particularly at halfback, really killed us. After that, we were really chasing our tail, and thought talk and commentary of a fantastic performance by Cork was pretty wide of the mark, as we were simply abysmal once Cork had settled after the first 10 minutes.

Giveitfong

Coláistí na nDéise 2-14 Nenagh CBS 1-10

Coláistí na nDéise (CnD) made history when seeing off a strong Nenagh CBS challenge to capture the Harty Cup for the first time in Cashel today. A combination of Dungarvan CBS and St. Augustine’s of Abbeyside, CnD are a very talented and well-balanced team which was full value for their win in front of a very large attendance.

The game was played on a reasonable (if slightly short) pitch, in overcast but otherwise good conditions, with a strongish diagonal wind which favoured CnD in the first half. CnD got off to a super start when corner forward finished to the net at the end of a good passing movement in the opening minutes, and five minutes later, his older brother and man-of-the-match Cathal confidently smashed a 20-metre free to the back of the net to put CnD very much in the driving seat.

With Colin Dunford in midfield and Michael Harney at centre forward winning possession time and again, CnD began piling on the points, mainly via Cathal Curran frees as the pressurised Nenagh defence committed foul after foul. After about 20 minutes Nenagh managed to lift the siege and gain territorial dominance for a period, but they found it very difficult to make any impression on a watertight CnD defence in which left half back Tadhg Burke was magnificent from start to finish. On the one occasion Nenagh did get through for a shot on goal, CnD goalie Eoin Kearns brought off a super save. CnD regained the initiative in the closing minutes of the half, and a flurry of points saw them going in at half time leading 2-10 to 0-5.

With wind assistance, Nenagh enjoyed the bulk of second half possession but were ill-advised in seeking to score goals right from the restart, sending a stream of balls, many from scorable frees, into the CnD goal area without fruit. Meanwhile, CnD continued to look dangerous on the break, and actually outscored Nenagh in the third quarter. Cathal Curran was desperately unlucky not to put the game out of Nenagh’s reach when he got on the end of a long delivery but his flick past the goalkeeper agonisingly went the wrong side of the goalpost.

Nenagh finally got some points on the board in the final quarter, but their search for a goal was repeatedly frustrated by the CnD defence’s combination of skill and resilience. When they finally got the ball into the net in the dying moments, it was little more than a consolation score.

CnD now go on to an All-Ireland semi-final against the Leinster final losers (St Kieran’s College or Kilkenny CBS) on March 17. They will have long-term injury victim Kevin Sheehan (who made a brief appearance as a late substitute today) and Kevin Daly (out today due to suspension) available for that fixture. Nenagh CBS remain in the All-Ireland competition in which they play the Ulster champions in a qualifying game.

Coláistí na nDéise: Eoin Kearns (St Mary’s); Kealon Looby (St Oliver’s); Tom Tobin (St Mary’s); Seán O’Donovan (Modeligo); Evan Collins (Abbeyside); Tom Devine (Modeligo); Tadhg Burke (Clashmore); Colin Dunford (Colligan) (0-1); Cormac Curran (Brickeys) (0-2, one free); Cathal Curran (Dungarvan) (1-9, 1-6 frees); Michael Harney (Bunmahon); Ryan Donnelly (Dungarvan); Michael Kiely (St. Mary’s); Kieran Power (Kilrossanty); Patrick Curran (Dungarvan) (1-2). Substitutes: Kevin Sheehan (St Mary’s), Eamon Crotty (Abbeyside).

The blue blaa

Gavin O'Brien should be starting, as someone previously stated he's got a nack of picking off some good scores something were seriously lacking. I'd swap Moran with Brick, brick is much more comfortable facing up the field while moran is very good at taking on players.Both our corner backs last night are wing backs, there's huge difference in them positions imo your either one or the other.

Regards the management and backroom team, Moran broke a hurley last night an it must of took 3/4 mins for him to get his own second hurley. Michael ryan ran out an gave him someone else's hurley and few mins later Noel Connors had to go out with Morans proper hurley,Moran didnt look too happy over this an who could blame him not very good organisation it must be said.

When Shane Casey suddenly pulled up with his hamstring he walked straight into the dugout leaving us with 14 men on the field understandable he got injured in front of dugout but Michael Ryan was staring out onto the field.While Chairman Tom Cunningham looked to be telling Thomas Ryan to get togged off is this not meant to be the managers job. Brother Phillip our selector seemed to be calling a lot more shots than our manager. I stuck up for Michael Ryan all along i was happy with his appointment but i'm not so sure now. A lot of little things are sticking out an they all add up,i seriously hope i'm wrong but were lacking something here. I completely understand we were missing a few starters but he dont look like a man that fully knows what he's doin, we had no gameplan yesterday,we just skyed the ball up to our forwards who were more suited to a low ball,something which has always been the case with our forwards we lack aerial threat..

This is just my opinion i dont want to sound like i'm running the team into the ground I'm not, it is only february but we have some tough games coming up lets hope the management learn fast an get more organised. Davy Fitz will relish playing us...... DONT STOP BELIEVING...

kkdela6

Why oh why oh lord tell me why is Eoin McGrath still on the panel. He isn't fit to be the waterboy for the passage U-14's team

deisebhoy17

kkdela6 wrote: »

Why oh why oh lord tell me why is Eoin McGrath still on the panel. He isn't fit to be the waterboy for the passage U-14's team

Came on and scored a point the other night. Id never single any individual for that kind of abuse he makes himself available for intercounty hurling and the management select him. Thats not his fault.

If hes that bad then is it not the management that need to get the abuse?

The blue blaa

kkdela6 wrote: »

Why oh why oh lord tell me why is Eoin McGrath still on the panel. He isn't fit to be the waterboy for the passage U-14's team

Well considering he's a Mount Sion man,he'l never be fit to be the passage waterboy :D..

He's a very committed fella who trains hard and gives it his all,Ya cant blame him for being picked in fairness, i personally wouldnt have him in my 24 but i wont knock him for effort year in year out.

kkdela6

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Came on and scored a point the other night. Id never single any individual for that kind of abuse he makes himself available for intercounty hurling and the management select him. Thats not his fault.

If hes that bad then is it not the management that need to get the abuse?

Fair enough i don't mean any disrespect, i've met him on occasion and he seems to be grand chap but it just really grinds my gears that he is being picked before better younger players even though he continuously proves his inability to deliver. To be fair just because he got a point doesn't make him a better player, im sure if someone from the under 14 squad got a good ball and was in the right position he could score a point too.

Controversial as this might sound, i just cant help but sometimes feel he is there due to who his brother is. Granted there are many players who are below his standard, but then there are many more who are above who should be out there before him. He may be admirably dedicated, but thats not going to get scores and wins

If it was a 100m sprint waterford vs cork then mcgrath would be my first man

PTH2009

The more I think about it the 2010 de la salle team must of been better than the current Waterford team if Michael Ryan could lead them to county and Munster glory.

deisebhoy17

kkdela6 wrote: »

To be fair just because he got a point doesn't make him a better player, im sure if someone from the under 14 squad got a good ball and was in the right position he could score a point too.

i just cant help but sometimes feel he is there due to who his brother is.

Sounds like hes damned if he does damned if he dosent!

The latter unlikely to be the reason. this is the third waterford manager that appears to rate him highly. At the moment I dont think its the worst thing in the world that hes there among the younger lads. We are in transition and more and more older lads are moving on and from what I hear hes a good fellah around the dressing room. Personally I wouldnt play him anymore and Id rather see a fully fit Eoin Kelly but shur maybe hes getting a fair chance under the new management

hardybuck

PTH2009 wrote: »

The more I think about it the 2010 de la salle team must of been better than the current Waterford team if Michael Ryan could lead them to county and Munster glory.

Well I have two observations about that DLS team. The first is that they played a very attractive brand of hurling. The full forward line had excellent movement and interplay, and would often drag the full back line out of shape, creating room for attacking players to run in from deep. There was very little aimless ball hit from what I saw of them. None of that from Waterford yet.

The second observation was that it took a while for DLS to come good under him from what I can remember. I think they were winning group games but not producing great performances. Then in the quarters and semis they exploded and blew a couple of teams off the field by 20 odd points. He won't get to do this with Waterford.

mickmcl09

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Sounds like hes damned if he does damned if he dosent!

The latter unlikely to be the reason. this is the third waterford manager that appears to rate him highly. At the moment I dont think its the worst thing in the world that hes there among the younger lads. We are in transition and more and more older lads are moving on and from what I hear hes a good fellah around the dressing room. Personally I wouldnt play him anymore and Id rather see a fully fit Eoin Kelly but shur maybe hes getting a fair chance under the new management

Not saying I told ye so, but last august, I got ripped apart on this thread for suggesting that the team would go through a transitional period. You're one of the few to mention the word since.

I also got ripped for saying the new Mgt would tinker with players positions before things would settle down and improve.

What worries me most and someone alluded to it. RE: Morans replacement Hurley, a player coming off with a hamstring injury, 14 men on the pitch and the manager is either running out on the pitch with a Hurley or just looking out onto the pitch when he should be looking to the bench. He seems like a 'rabbit in headlights' right now.
To be fair DLS took a while to transform and fair play to him. Maybe he will/won't do the same for Waterford. I said last week that early in the year the Mgt and county board could have made it easier for themselves and easier for supporters to bear, if they had put it out that there was an element of transition required. It's getting a bit late for that now and would probably be perceived as an excuse or a cope out by the Mgt.

To me it seems that the Mgt don't accept that an element of transition is required. They're forcing the issue with very questionable experimentation with the Brick and on the other hand a lack of it by not trying out others.

Last weekends game, no doubt Cork had more material on show and deserved the win. However, it's the league not the championship and listening to a manager stating the fact that so many were missing for the game doesn't cut the ice where the performance of the players on show are concerned and that's his job. Excuses like that are not warranted for a league game.
That Waterford team has 2 main issues to address IMO.

- tightening up the back 6
- getting easier scores from play. Team too heavily dependent on Mullane.

Whether he moves Brick to CB, will be part of addressing the back 6.
The 2nd point I think revolves around your FF, Shane Walsh is it, not so much how he plays but the forwards around him and the closer they operate to him the better. A 2 man FF line doesn't suit him as teams can isolate him, because after Mullane he's probably the most potent forward you have not only from a scoring point of view but from providing assists, he's a very good ball getter. That's my tuppence.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

Well I have two observations about that DLS team. The first is that they played a very attractive brand of hurling. The full forward line had excellent movement and interplay, and would often drag the full back line out of shape, creating room for attacking players to run in from deep. There was very little aimless ball hit from what I saw of them. None of that from Waterford yet.

The second observation was that it took a while for DLS to come good under him from what I can remember. I think they were winning group games but not producing great performances. Then in the quarters and semis they exploded and blew a couple of teams off the field by 20 odd points. He won't get to do this with Waterford.

Agree with both. They were very average in the group, got bet by 18 points I think by BG, before they went on a destroying spree, even leading to them killing Ballygunner in the final.

Another observation, and no matter what people say this is the most relevant thing about Saturday night, we were missing 11 players. If De La Salle were missing 11 first team players, they'd have been playing like an Intermediate team.

Sure, there are questions over the managment but at the end of the day going down to play Cork (a county with a huge pick who could probably find replacements better than us) at near full strength, who are really pushing for a good league campaign in front of their home fans, probably with a bit of pride at stake because that's the first time they've beaten us since 2008, was always going to be very difficult.

I think I agree with the view that we must persist with Brick centre forward for now, eventually Moran will be our centre back, and we really have nobody else I fear to play centre forward until one or two young players get a bit older.

I heard that if we finish last we still have a playoff against the 1B winners to stay up. Wouldn't like to play Clare before the championship again but at least we have that chance I guess. Think we should target Dublin in our final game at home. Looks like they could struggle as much as us in this league campaign. If we can get our act together for Tipp we might have a chance. Kilkenny will be very tough because they look on fire at the moment, and we've a terrible record in Salthill.

Cake Man

I heard that if we finish last we still have a playoff against the 1B winners to stay up. Wouldn't like to play Clare before the championship again but at least we have that chance I guess. Think we should target Dublin in our final game at home. Looks like they could struggle as much as us in this league campaign. If we can get our act together for Tipp we might have a chance. Kilkenny will be very tough because they look on fire at the moment, and we've a terrible record in Salthill.

I'm not fully sure how it works myself but I heard it's the bottom two teams in the group will play off in a relegation match. If that is as you suggest (ourselves and Dublin, which I think might be the case also) that would mean we'd play Dublin at home and then Dublin again in the relegation play-off. However, I'm open to correction on this.
Agree with you that we most likely won't get much from KK and we never do well in Galway. Still early days though and with many to come back and strengthen the panel (and also a few more weeks to get fitness/tactics right), I'm not going to sound the death knell for us just yet.

hurler on de ditch

kkdela6 wrote: »

Fair enough i don't mean any disrespect, i've met him on occasion and he seems to be grand chap but it just really grinds my gears that he is being picked before better younger players even though he continuously proves his inability to deliver. To be fair just because he got a point doesn't make him a better player, im sure if someone from the under 14 squad got a good ball and was in the right position he could score a point too.

Controversial as this might sound, i just cant help but sometimes feel he is there due to who his brother is. Granted there are many players who are below his standard, but then there are many more who are above who should be out there before him. He may be admirably dedicated, but thats not going to get scores and wins

If it was a 100m sprint waterford vs cork then mcgrath would be my first man

****e talk

Hslaw

was it not 2006 when cork last beat us ??

Mountainlad

Hslaw wrote: »

was it not 2006 when cork last beat us ??

2008 in the league in Walsh Park. Very strong wind that day. I remeber Bull played quite well. Cork got a goal that should have been ruled out for square ball, we would have drawn if it had I think.

Mountainlad

Cake Man wrote: »

I'm not fully sure how it works myself but I heard it's the bottom two teams in the group will play off in a relegation match. If that is as you suggest (ourselves and Dublin, which I think might be the case also) that would mean we'd play Dublin at home and then Dublin again in the relegation play-off. However, I'm open to correction on this.
Agree with you that we most likely won't get much from KK and we never do well in Galway. Still early days though and with many to come back and strengthen the panel (and also a few more weeks to get fitness/tactics right), I'm not going to sound the death knell for us just yet.

That's not actually what I was suggesting, but according to the GAA website that is actually the case, which could be very strange. Where would they play the match?

By the way, just as an irrelevant but interesting side note, all three teams in Division 1A lost by 8 points, and across the two divisions the average winning margin was 9 points with Antrim's 6 point win over Wexford being the closest run affair.

lovelypoint

Mountainlad wrote: »

By the way, just as an irrelevant but interesting side note, all three teams in Division 1A lost by 8 points, and across the two divisions the average winning margin was 9 points with Antrim's 6 point win over Wexford being the closest run affair.

Nail on head, and hopefully those getting carried away over-analysing challenge, Waterford Crystal & early league games, will see the fallacy in such. Like the league in previous years, these sort of games are best for gauging current progress and early season fitness, but it would seem many have decreed our lot for the season already, despite the fact that last weekends games have shown there is a noticeable difference in where teams are at the moment.

League could be cut-throat, but even if languishing at the foot of the table, there's still a do or die playoff to decide relegation, and even if relegated, if it allowed us to develop our players with potential, then it may not be the worst.

Haven't seen the KK-Tipp game last weekend, and with KK looming the Sunday after next, wonder what the verdict is on how Kilkenny are motoring. Consensus after the weekend, seems to be that they were awesome against Tipp, but then again people were saying the same about Cork after last weekend too, so its hard to know what to believe..

hardybuck

lovelypoint wrote: »

Nail on head, and hopefully those getting carried away over-analysing challenge, Waterford Crystal & early league games, will see the fallacy in such. Like the league in previous years, these sort of games are best for gauging current progress and early season fitness, but it would seem many have decreed our lot for the season already, despite the fact that last weekends games have shown there is a noticeable difference in where teams are at the moment.

League could be cut-throat, but even if languishing at the foot of the table, there's still a do or die playoff to decide relegation, and even if relegated, if it allowed us to develop our players with potential, then it may not be the worst.

Haven't seen the KK-Tipp game last weekend, and with KK looming the Sunday after next, wonder what the verdict is on how Kilkenny are motoring. Consensus after the weekend, seems to be that they were awesome against Tipp, but then again people were saying the same about Cork after last weekend too, so its hard to know what to believe..

From my point of view, I'm quite concerned by the fact that we were heavily beaten by two poor teams.

I don't think I need to wait until we get similar beatings in the next three games from Kilkenny, Tipp and Galway before I voice that concern.

lovelypoint

hardybuck wrote: »

From my point of view, I'm quite concerned by the fact that we were heavily beaten by two poor teams.

I don't think I need to wait until we get similar beatings in the next three games from Kilkenny, Tipp and Galway before I voice that concern.

Ha ha, talk is good, not saying it's not, lol.

For what it's worth, am a little concerned myself, but the attitudes of some who have just about written off our whole season already, is a little worrying. As someone else noted, we are still in the running for the League, Munster, and All Ireland.

hardybuck

lovelypoint wrote: »

Ha ha, talk is good, not saying it's not, lol.

For what it's worth, am a little concerned myself, but the attitudes of some who have just about written off our whole season already, is a little worrying. As someone else noted, we are still in the running for the League, Munster, and All Ireland.

No bother - reading that again I see my comment might appear a bit stern!

I'd say you could write off the league and All Ireland anyway, outside chance at a Munster. Just don't have the quality to achieve more at present.

lovelypoint

hardybuck wrote: »

No bother - reading that again I see my comment might appear a bit stern!

I'd say you could write off the league and All Ireland anyway, outside chance at a Munster. Just don't have the quality to achieve more at present.

Yes, All Ireland glory would be a bit optimistic, especially with so many of our brightest prospects nowhere near the panel at the moment. Given the step-up from minor to senior from so many of Tipps young hopefuls these last few years, gives me some hope, with the players we have coming down the track. For now though, I don't see enough there to make us more than dangerous opponents for those on their way to the All Ireland, especially with the Brian O'Sullivan's, Brian O'Halloran's, Tommy Ryan's, at al, on the periphery, if even on the panel, this year.

Re: munster, if we can handle a resurgent Clare side, I shall be impressed, and feel we were lucky to edge them last year, and that their side is only getting stronger.

Still decent chances in the league, well to avoid relegation really or possibly finish mid table, but anything more is beyond us I feel, where we are currently with injuries & where we are fitness and training-wise. What I do want to see less of from management though, is this soundbite of injuries, as shoddy defending and poor attacking are what cost us a result in Cork, in my opinion.

lovelypoint

Indo reporting Foley is out for the league, targetting a return in June against Clare (http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/foley-to-miss-rest-of-league-3034567.html).

I wonder what the injury tally is on the rest of our panel. Obviously some have just picked up knocks, while others have either had more serious knocks, or surgeries. Am I right in thinking Wayne Huthinson and Liam Lawlor are our current longer term injuries, with the rest suffering knocks, possibly with Maurice Shanahan being the worst injured of those with knocks ?

glick6

Wayne Hutchinson and Richie Foley had hip surgeries at more or less the same time in late January. Pretty much three months before return to full team training = late April all going well and then it's down to gaining match sharpness to be fit for selection come June. Liam Lawlor, as far as I've been told is training away but just not match fit. If he gets fit, he'l be available for selection, injury isn't the issue. The word is that Maurice definitely does not have a fracture so I assume a soft tissue injury means only a couple of weeks at most? Ringo should be back for Kilkenny, was told he trained a bit during the week. Not sure about Noely Connors. He didnt train at all during the week so I suppose he probably wont be available for KK.

Also I think that Independent article is hilarious. It says "but the news that he will not feature during the League will come as a blow to manager Michael Ryan, who is down a number of players through injury".......... Hardly come as a blow seeing as Ryan has known since early January that he wouldn't be available until the end of May at the earliest! Bad oul journalism trying to find a bit of hype where there is none.

IanVW

Any challenges this weekend?

glick6

none pencilled in... think they have fitness testing saturday.

lovelypoint

glick6 wrote: »

Wayne Hutchinson and Richie Foley had hip surgeries at more or less the same time in late January. Pretty much three months before return to full team training = late April all going well and then it's down to gaining match sharpness to be fit for selection come June. Liam Lawlor, as far as I've been told is training away but just not match fit. If he gets fit, he'l be available for selection, injury isn't the issue. The word is that Maurice definitely does not have a fracture so I assume a soft tissue injury means only a couple of weeks at most? Ringo should be back for Kilkenny, was told he trained a bit during the week. Not sure about Noely Connors. He didnt train at all during the week so I suppose he probably wont be available for KK.

Also I think that Independent article is hilarious. It says "but the news that he will not feature during the League will come as a blow to manager Michael Ryan, who is down a number of players through injury".......... Hardly come as a blow seeing as Ryan has known since early January that he wouldn't be available until the end of May at the earliest! Bad oul journalism trying to find a bit of hype where there is none.

Yes, silly stuff from the Indo alright, trying to pad out the article I would imagine on probably a slow sports news day.

Good to hear that Wayne and Ritchie will be back come championship, although could be difficult for Hutchinson to force his way back in, come June, I suspect. Good to hear Lawlor is back training, and at least with him and Ringo back, we have options again in the back line again. Hopefully nothing too serious with Noel or Shane Walsh, and imagine Maurice will be thankful the sooner he gets back also.