Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

Deise Doodler

Mountainlad wrote: »

Hutchison wasn't dropped, he broke his arm.

Was talking about the full back position/starting 15 after the 1st goal by Downes in the Limerick game last year he was moved to wing back before being taken off, dont remember him involved after that, at what point did he break his arm ?

Mountainlad

Deise Doodler wrote: »

Was talking about the full back position/starting 15 after the 1st goal by Downes in the Limerick game last year he was moved to wing back before being taken off, dont remember him involved after that, at what point did he break his arm ?

I see what you're saying, but he may not have been dropped if he hadn't sustained the injury. About two weeks before the Munster Final. Dunno when he returned to training.

Deise Doodler

Mountainlad wrote: »

I see what you're saying, but he may not have been dropped if he hadn't sustained the injury. About two weeks before the Munster Final. Dunno when he returned to training.

Didnt realize that, thought he was another casualty of our fullback poison chalice,

Anyone hear of news of any cuts to panel for league ?

Mountainlad

Deise Doodler wrote: »

Didnt realize that, thought he was another casualty of our fullback poison chalice,

Anyone hear of news of any cuts to panel for league ?

Bit dramatic, no?

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

Bit dramatic, no?

We haven't had a proper full back since sean Cullinane retired in 2001, tha'ts well documented. imo Its one of the main reasons we didnt win an AI in the last decade. Any great team is backboned by a powerhouse of a fullback. Think of Brian Lohan, Diarmud O'Sullivan, Noel Hickey. Paul Curran of Tipp wouldnt be in that mould but still streets ahead of any FB weve had

Dickys Back Garden

Christy Ryan is a super half back and wasn't he also voted full back of the year last year in the county championship by the local newspapers? Surprised he hasn't been mentioned at all and he has seen very little game time so far. Kept Eoin Kelly scoreless from play against Passage last year, no mean feat. Should have benn tried more in my opinion.

hurler on de ditch

lovelypoint wrote: »

The injuries would seem to narrow down the selection alright, and can see a team close to what you named. Personally, would prefer to Shane O'Sullivan midfield, with Molumphy going to corner forward with his usual remit to drift and ruck.

Hopefully a little experimentation with the wing backs too, as for a county allegedly awash in decent wingbacks, I cannot understand how Sully and Nagle are our best options there. The former seems to do his best work from midfield where he has the energy and vision to control the game, and the latter is not an intercounty standard player unfortunately, imo. Surely David O'Sullivan and Philip Mahony warrant their shot there during the league.

Pity about the injuries to Foley and Hutchinson, the league would have been a good opportunity to ascertain Foleys strongest position, as well as perhaps seeing if Hutchinsons immense performances at half back can be transferred to the county team.

Lastly, am I the only one who fears we are a little light at the very back, in terms of cover..

jesus take one of our most influential and stick him in the corner ,christ your not davy fitz are ya

Deise Doodler

Mountainlad wrote: »

Bit dramatic, no?

Is it ? I rekon its not a position that many waterford players would relish being tried in at this stage, not saying that anyone of them would refuse the chance to be on the starting 15 but between ourselves and the press we have made what is naturally a unforgiving position almost unfillable,

Vicious cycle
The more we too and fro over the position the more the press pick upon it and other teams percive it as a weakness. The more they percive it as a weekness the more they seek to exploit it and the more presure the position come under. More pressure the more likely mistakes will be made, the more we chop and change

Think its time we settled on and specifically coached the position with 2-3 players and then like the keeper, pick the best and keep working with them, Its a long list over the last 10 with many fine players being deemed not suitable for the position , not saying that they all were but it is a long list

deisebhoy17

Dickys Back Garden wrote: »

Christy Ryan is a super half back and wasn't he also voted full back of the year last year in the county championship by the local newspapers? Surprised he hasn't been mentioned at all and he has seen very little game time so far. Kept Eoin Kelly scoreless from play against Passage last year, no mean feat. Should have benn tried more in my opinion.

Ah Hes okay. You could make a case for many club players keeping county stars scoreless in club games on different occasions. I think hes on the provisional panel but theres a lot of options at wing back as it is

mickmcl09

1st. Great Full Backs don't win All-Irelands, it takes 15-20 players on any given Sunday over the course of the summer.
2nd. Strangely enough it's really only been 2011 that other counties have looked at this weakness in the Waterford team and it's not that ye have a poor FB, it's the holes that can be punched around him so easily.
Any of the great FBs, their corner backs never wandered far and if their half backs wandered down the field, one midfielder would wander back into the hole.
3rd. All the great FBs from other counties bar KK, had a great GK behind them. Think Cusack, Fitzgerald, Cummins etc.

FB is not a poison chalice. The Fives, Lawlor, Connors ; that's 4 solid players with 2 FBs among them. Unfortunately, I think it's your HB line that's going to create the problems for the FB line in 2012.

The Brick is too good a player to be wasted at CF.
CFs generally don't score much. An effective CF is more important. How much primary possession can he get and distribute? How much can he reduce the effectiveness of the CB. Think John Power, Brendan Lynsky, Storey(Wexford), O'Connell(Clare), McCormack & McCarthy (Cork). I could go on.

The point is ye have players for the FB line. Brick at CB, Moran at WB and a choice of about 3 maybe for the other spot. With a proper HB LINE, the FB line will be a lot less prone to being taken apart.

With all that I said, I don't go to every club game, nor do I go down to see who is/is not going well at training and like it or not that's the basis for much of the team selection added to performances of the most recent outings.

Mountainlad

Dickys Back Garden wrote: »

Christy Ryan is a super half back and wasn't he also voted full back of the year last year in the county championship by the local newspapers? Surprised he hasn't been mentioned at all and he has seen very little game time so far. Kept Eoin Kelly scoreless from play against Passage last year, no mean feat. Should have benn tried more in my opinion.

Hey played the whole game against UCC, which is the only game I've seen him play. Didn't cover himself in glory have to say.

mickmcl09 wrote: »

1st. Great Full Backs don't win All-Irelands, it takes 15-20 players on any given Sunday over the course of the summer.
2nd. Strangely enough it's really only been 2011 that other counties have looked at this weakness in the Waterford team and it's not that ye have a poor FB, it's the holes that can be punched around him so easily.
Any of the great FBs, their corner backs never wandered far and if their half backs wandered down the field, one midfielder would wander back into the hole.
3rd. All the great FBs from other counties bar KK, had a great GK behind them. Think Cusack, Fitzgerald, Cummins etc.

FB is not a poison chalice. The Fives, Lawlor, Connors ; that's 4 solid players with 2 FBs among them. Unfortunately, I think it's your HB line that's going to create the problems for the FB line in 2012.

The Brick is too good a player to be wasted at CF.
CFs generally don't score much. An effective CF is more important. How much primary possession can he get and distribute? How much can he reduce the effectiveness of the CB. Think John Power, Brendan Lynsky, Storey(Wexford), O'Connell(Clare), McCormack & McCarthy (Cork). I could go on.

The point is ye have players for the FB line. Brick at CB, Moran at WB and a choice of about 3 maybe for the other spot. With a proper HB LINE, the FB line will be a lot less prone to being taken apart.

With all that I said, I don't go to every club game, nor do I go down to see who is/is not going well at training and like it or not that's the basis for much of the team selection added to performances of the most recent outings.

Definetly disagree with that, it's been well documented since the emergance of the Waterford team. 2003 against Cork we were badly exploited. 2004 against Kilkenny (it was more the entire full back line at that stage). Cork in 2007, and most notably Limerick in 2007 (all Ireland semi) and Kilkenny targeting Ringo in 2009.

mickmcl09

I know what your saying and I can't disagree with you, but the problem lies out further in most cases i.e. breaking the tackle in the HB line leaving one of the poor souls in the FB line in a 2 on 1 situation. Having said that I think 2009, which is most relevant to now, it wasn't a case of targeting any one in particular, it could have been any of the Waterford players. Ringo was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. KK tore all teams apart bar Tipp in 2009. Waterford as a whole were simply not at their level across the board.

It's like dealing with great forwards, sometimes it's more effective to cut the supply. Equally sometimes the easiest way to breach FB line is to breach the HB line first to make a suspect CB vulnerable on the double. There's no end to the tactical permutations.

Tactics are far from simple. Cody has the material, so I'm not sure how tactile he is. Daly and O'Grady are tacticians beyond belief. Davy & Justin before him to a lesser extent wouldn't exactly put the place on fire in that dept.

drumhills

Deise Doodler wrote: »

Didnt realize that, thought he was another casualty of our fullback poison chalice,

Anyone hear of news of any cuts to panel for league ?

Thomas and Maurice O Gorman,Seamus Lawlor,Jamie Barron,Brian O Sullivan,Brian O Halloran and some say Johm Mullane?

Mountainlad

drumhills wrote: »

Thomas and Maurice O Gorman,Seamus Lawlor,Jamie Barron,Brian O Sullivan,Brian O Halloran and some say Johm Mullane?

4 of them walked, Mullane is resting, and I heard nothing about O'Halloran.

Mountainlad

mickmcl09 wrote: »

I know what your saying and I can't disagree with you, but the problem lies out further in most cases i.e. breaking the tackle in the HB line leaving one of the poor souls in the FB line in a 2 on 1 situation. Having said that I think 2009, which is most relevant to now, it wasn't a case of targeting any one in particular, it could have been any of the Waterford players. Ringo was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. KK tore all teams apart bar Tipp in 2009. Waterford as a whole were simply not at their level across the board.

It's like dealing with great forwards, sometimes it's more effective to cut the supply. Equally sometimes the easiest way to breach FB line is to breach the HB line first to make a suspect CB vulnerable on the double. There's no end to the tactical permutations.

Tactics are far from simple. Cody has the material, so I'm not sure how tactile he is. Daly and O'Grady are tacticians beyond belief. Davy & Justin before him to a lesser extent wouldn't exactly put the place on fire in that dept.

In my opinion, it's the half forward line over the last few years has been the main problem for the fullback line. The lack of ball being won up there meant that their was a constant onslaught of pressure on our backline, and unless you have really 6 phenomenal defenders you're going to wilt at some stage.

That said, it's undeniable that Kilkenny put Shefflin on Ringo when he was full back because they saw a weakness, and Shefflin scored 1-2 and setup a goal for the 20-25 minutes that Ringo was left in there.

Fullback is an immensely difficult place to play and in this day and age with managers coming up with plenty of effective ways to exploit full backs you need a counter plan to give cover. Coming up with one of those is very difficult it must be said, and certainly taking one of your forwards and throwing them in the backline doesn't seem to work to me anyway. Daly uses it and while you might say it has helped Dublin in their recent drastic improvement, I think any further progress can be limited with an adopted tactic such as that.

hardybuck

Team announcement tonight I presume? Sean Og is back for Cork I see.

Talking to a few Cork lads, they are very optimistic for Sat night. Jimmy Barry Murphy back at the helm and a big crowd in Pairc Ui Rinn should swing things in their favour you'd think.

HillFarmer

Cork team named in An Fear Rua

Saturday night at 7pm in Páirc Uí Rinn will be as follows:

1. Donal Og Cusack
Cloyne

... 2. Brian Murphy 2. Stephen McDonnell 4. Shane O'Neill
Bride Rovers Glen Rovers Bishopstown

5. John Gardiner 6. Ross Cashman 7. William Egan
Na Piarsaigh Kilbrittain Kilbrin

8. Sean Óg Ó hAilpín 9. Darren Sweetnam
Na Piarsaigh Dohenys

10. Conor Lehane 11. Pa Cronin 12. Cathal Naughton
Midleton Bishopstown Newtownshandrum

13. Patrick Horgan 14. Paudie O'Sullivan 15. Ben O'Connor
Glen Rovers Cloyne Newtownshandrum


Sean og midfield, interesting. New full back and centre back. Still think going on our current form this Cork team will should win it.

HillFarmer

Any word when the Waterford team will be named?

mickmcl09

Mountainlad wrote: »

In my opinion, it's the half forward line over the last few years has been the main problem for the fullback line. The lack of ball being won up there meant that their was a constant onslaught of pressure on our backline, and unless you have really 6 phenomenal defenders you're going to wilt at some stage.

That said, it's undeniable that Kilkenny put Shefflin on Ringo when he was full back because they saw a weakness, and Shefflin scored 1-2 and setup a goal for the 20-25 minutes that Ringo was left in there.

Fullback is an immensely difficult place to play and in this day and age with managers coming up with plenty of effective ways to exploit full backs you need a counter plan to give cover. Coming up with one of those is very difficult it must be said, and certainly taking one of your forwards and throwing them in the backline doesn't seem to work to me anyway. Daly uses it and while you might say it has helped Dublin in their recent drastic improvement, I think any further progress can be limited with an adopted tactic such as that.

We could debate this for a while, but you'll find that the majority of goals (not all obviously) in hurling are scored via assists of less than 30 metres and not long ball.

My point is that almost as much ball is going to come down the field with Brick at CF. He's just such a high calibre CB, it's a waste of team resources. Having said that I can't argue with the Mgt's train of thought ie trying out HBs in the HF line.
In an earlier post I put forward a suggested back line. That leaves alot of backs that could be tried out in the HF line, just don't use one of the best HBs in a position where he might not be any more effective than one of the Prendergasts, who, while it might be a little late in their careers now, how nobody really honed them into big time ball getters to cause simple havoc surprised me. Maybe nobody else saw the potential, maybe you simply couldn't turn them into that type of hurler, I don't know.

On the subject of Daly. Tactics are far more elaborate than dropping a forward in the middle of 6 backs. A tactic that I believe ruined Waterford by the way as backs got too used of having this luxury and weren't able to deal with a straight 6 on 6 when they reverted to a straight 15.

Tactics are less about being shoulder to shoulder in every part of the pitch now. Some CBs stand a couple of yards behind CFs or CF operates 55m out instead of 45. Some CFs ramble and CBs have to make calculated decisions. Midfielders the same. Fennelly will operate closer to the attacking 65 for most of a match and when the opportunity arises he's splitting down the middle. Others will operate in front, beside or behind a CB. Some WBs sit up to 10 metres behind the 45 to stifle a corner forward from operating.
Theres a diamond shape from within, is a scoring zone. Back lines set themselves up to be within that zone as much as possible it has a 2 fold advantage. Backs on the opposition tend to drive balls into no scoring zones hence the forwards have to work harder for scores. It the ball is dropped into scoring zones, the area tends to be more condensed than a conventional set up making it more difficult for forwards to operate in.

There's so much more to a game now. Listening to Dignan, Flynn and 1 or 2 more on the Sunday Game about basic 15 man games makes me cringe at their inability to analyse games fully, picking up on tit bits to justify their analysis.

The biggest problem for most teams now is a managements inability to man manage, to pull certain individuals and groups of players aside to give them feed back on their game and more importantly what to do differently the next time. This reminds me of Davy's half-time chat with LIT in a fitzgibbon match. Ya, he's OTT (one GAA columnist I know personally, calls it passion), but it's all that is wrong with managing a team. You can't just speak to 15 lads in general terms and expect results, you have to be specific in what you say, who you say it too and how you say it (for fear they head off in a tiff :rolleyes:)

I'd like to see Waterford do well this year, not at Clare's expense mind. But maybe to put some of the big teams that will inevitably be in the qualifiers to the sword.

Corks team looks interesting for the weekend too. Alot of eyes will be on Séan Og no doubt.

Deise Doodler

Mountainlad wrote: »

In my opinion, it's the half forward line over the last few years has been the main problem for the fullback line. The lack of ball being won up there meant that their was a constant onslaught of pressure on our backline, and unless you have really 6 phenomenal defenders you're going to wilt at some stage.

That said, it's undeniable that Kilkenny put Shefflin on Ringo when he was full back because they saw a weakness, and Shefflin scored 1-2 and setup a goal for the 20-25 minutes that Ringo was left in there.

Fullback is an immensely difficult place to play and in this day and age with managers coming up with plenty of effective ways to exploit full backs you need a counter plan to give cover. Coming up with one of those is very difficult it must be said, and certainly taking one of your forwards and throwing them in the backline doesn't seem to work to me anyway. Daly uses it and while you might say it has helped Dublin in their recent drastic improvement, I think any further progress can be limited with an adopted tactic such as that.

Agree 100% the half forward line has been the main problem, for the very reasons you outline, As regards our full back,teams will always look for a weakness , I just think that we have made to much of it, also no matter how good you full back it is the support of the corner and halfbacks droping backand covering fast enough that will often make the difference

nexusg

Mountainlad wrote: »

drumhills wrote: »

Thomas and Maurice O Gorman,Seamus Lawlor,Jamie Barron,Brian O Sullivan,Brian O Halloran and some say Johm Mullane?

4 of them walked, Mullane is resting, and I heard nothing about O'Halloran.

Brian O'Halloran is supposed to be injured knees are bad. Sounds serious that he's pulled out of the squad. Poor guy. Was hoping he'd start showing his potential that everybody knows he has!

lovelypoint

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

jesus take one of our most influential and stick him in the corner ,christ your not davy fitz are ya

Ha ha, hardly. After his declining form of the last year or two, the jury is out for me on Molumphy. I would love to see him rediscover his form of old, as he has few peers when it comes to winning dirty ball. He always chipped in with a few scores and select passes, both elements absent from his game in the last year or two under Davy.

A re-energised Molumphy is vital for the cause, but for now perhaps take the pressure off, start him at corner forward, let him roam and drift and re-build some form. Plus, Molumphy always seems his best, drifting back from a forward position as breaks in the play present themselves. Doesn't seem to have the same influence as a straight midfielder, and definitely best at either wing or corner forward, for me. In any case, for my money

HillFarmer

I'll have a go at a team Ryan might pick for tomorrow night.

Wouldnt be my choice, think Brick should have been left Center back.

Iggy

Dec Pender/P mahony, Darragh Fives, Ringo Kearney
Shane Sull, Kevin Moran, Jamie Nagle,

Paul O'Brien,Molomphy,

Seamy Pender, Brick, Paudie Mahony
Martin O Neil ? Shane Casey

DOnt even know who we could put in Full forward if Shane walsh is out.
Anyone know how long Maurice will be out for.?

Mountainlad

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'll have a go at a team Ryan might pick for tomorrow night.

Wouldnt be my choice, think Brick should have been left Center back.

Iggy

Dec Pender/P mahony, Darragh Fives, Ringo Kearney
Shane Sull, Kevin Moran, Jamie Nagle,

Paul O'Brien,Molomphy,

Seamy Pender, Brick, Paudie Mahony
Martin O Neil ? Shane Casey

DOnt even know who we could put in Full forward if Shane walsh is out.
Anyone know how long Maurice will be out for.?

Seamus will almost certainly be full forward meaning Twomey, Nevin or possibly Gavin O'Brien wing forward.

UCD are out of the colleges as well so I wonder will David O'Sullivan feature.

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

Seamus will almost certainly be full forward meaning Twomey, Nevin or possibly Gavin O'Brien wing forward.

UCD are out of the colleges as well so I wonder will David O'Sullivan feature.

Was David O'Sullivan dropped though? Whats the story with Connors as well with regard to availability?

lovelypoint

Listening to wlr a little while ago, there seems to be a number of injury doubts ahead of tomorrow night, with Noel Connors, Maurice Shanahan, and Shane Walsh joining Liam Lawlor and Wayne Hutchinson on the injured list. If talk of something broken is true, then I imagine Maurice is out for a while, with Shane Walsh seeming the most likely to make it for Saturday. I believe Ringo is a doubt too.

Seems injury could force managements hand with regard to experimenting and trying new players out during the league. I suppose that means a new face or two in the full back line, which I feel is a good thing as cover is light there. Also if Shane Walsh is out, then someone else at full forward, although in this case we're probably looking at Seamus up there, which means a few new faces at wing forward, which is also no harm.

Hopefully sense will prevail, and we will see a few players getting a chance at wing back too during the league..

hurler on de ditch

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'll have a go at a team Ryan might pick for tomorrow night.

Wouldnt be my choice, think Brick should have been left Center back.

Iggy

Dec Pender/P mahony, Darragh Fives, Ringo Kearney
Shane Sull, Kevin Moran, Jamie Nagle,

Paul O'Brien,Molomphy,

Seamy Pender, Brick, Paudie Mahony
Martin O Neil ? Shane Casey

DOnt even know who we could put in Full forward if Shane walsh is out.
Anyone know how long Maurice will be out for.?

well done there name a team with 14 players clap clap

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

Was David O'Sullivan dropped though? Whats the story with Connors as well with regard to availability?

David O'Sullivan? Be stunned if he was.

We're also missing Foley and Mullane, dunno what the story with Daniels is.

Mountainlad

Anyone have the team?

The blue blaa

Daniel's involved with C.I.T so is not available.