Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

deiseach

Jaysus, that was grim stuff. I've put together a match report here but be warned! The writing of it felt like an exercise in trying to come up with as many different ways of saying how badly Tallow were out of their depth

hurler on de ditch

premierstone wrote: »

No its definitely Drom v Ballygunner, pretty poor planning by the Limerick County Board IMO, Na Piarsiagh will be going into that game not having played in a month, what was the panic with the Limerick County Final??

SURE THEY WILL HAVE CHALLENGE GAMES

hurler on de ditch

deiseach wrote: »

Jaysus, that was grim stuff. I've put together a match report here but be warned! The writing of it felt like an exercise in trying to come up with as many different ways of saying how badly Tallow were out of their depth

WELL DONE ON YOUR REPORT ALTHOUGH AFTER SEEING IT I COULD NOT SUBJECT MYSELF TO READING IT IN ITS ENTIRETY ,but sure better 2 have loved and lost as they say,minor match great and dan the man going through de motions ,entertaining 2 say the least

rebel girl 15

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

What time did the news break? papers already printed. It'll be in tomorrows.

I got a text at 12.30ish about it - presume it broke shortly before that, depending on the paper, print deadline would be about 10.30ish - I know from the soccer reports that they would have to be in around 20 mins after the final whistle, which would be 9.50.

Delighted for him, got to know him through ladies football, and he's a lovely man, wish him the best of luck with it. I heard Sunday that Pat Flanagan won't be overall trainer on his own, that there will be two of them in charge of it.

lovelypoint

Michael Ryan & co due to be ratified tonight, perhaps anyone in the know can keep us posted here, as to how things go. Hopefully the lads will get three years at the helm (with perhaps a review after two), and won't be hamstrung by having to look over their shoulders every year.

Mountainlad

To any onlooking mods, I suppose we could take down the poll?

lovelypoint

All the best to Michael, Nicky, Pat & Br. Philip, who seem to have been ratified for two years at the helm, last night. Don't think there will be too much of a honeymoon period, and the lads have it ahead of themselves to address our touch, attacking play, ball winning ability and the cohesion of our full back line, as well as manage new blood while dealing with retirements.

Really looking forward to 2012 now, and hopefully the new mgt. team will get the support they need in what is not the easiest of jobs, and not end up having to look over their shoulders every 12 months!

premierstone

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

SURE THEY WILL HAVE CHALLENGE GAMES

Against who, and no challenge match can remotely prepare for a munster semi.

hardybuck

premierstone wrote: »

Against who, and no challenge match can remotely prepare for a munster semi.

They would get very good games against the college sides - UL, LIT - both in Limerick, and NUIG and UCC are only an hour or so away probably for them.

hardybuck

Folks,

I'd like to bring up a topic for discussion, although it has probably been muted before - group selections in senior championship.

In senior hurling we have a two, or possibly three-tiered championship. DLS and Ballygunner are capable of blowing many teams off the field by 20 points, and many of our teams would be of intermediate standard in other counties.

Senior football is probably more evenly contested, but there is still a dominance held by three clubs.

Increasingly on our underage and senior county teams, an increasing number of players are being sourced from junior and intermediate clubs. What worries me here is the lack of games and poor standard of game players in these grades get in comparison to neighbouring counties. Waterford have to put a lot more work into developing senior players than the likes of Cork or Tipp.

As a result, I think we should explore the possibility of developing Group teams like what is done in Cork and Kerry - with a great deal of success. Cork footballers in particular have a huge amount of junior club players in their ranks - many of whom would not have had a chance to be spotted.

Advantages:

• Player development - talented young players who are playing a lower club standard can benefit from a more competitive senior club standard, while still being able to line out for their home clubs.
• Junior and Inter clubs have reduced risk of losing players - something which has been quite common in Waterford over the years
• The overall standard of the club championship is raised improving the enjoyment for players and spectators
• County sides benefit from more players playing at a higher standard for more of the year

Disadvantages:

• County Board has to put better fixture structures in place
• County Board and clubs have to place a lot of time into planning and strategy
• Some smaller senior clubs will complain about dropping down a grade

Now, I know a lot of people will say it'll never work, but I think many things which are worth doing present challenges and require quite a lot of effort.

Thoughts and opinions?

hurler on de ditch

Cake Man wrote: »

Was wondering myself, I reckon Chuck O' Connor again. Also I'd hazard a guess at Fergal back for another year with the U21's.

now we know john burns ferrybank ,ray o brien butlerstown OMG

deisebhoy17

hardybuck wrote: »

Folks,

I'd like to bring up a topic for discussion, although it has probably been muted before - group selections in senior championship.

In senior hurling we have a two, or possibly three-tiered championship. DLS and Ballygunner are capable of blowing many teams off the field by 20 points, and many of our teams would be of intermediate standard in other counties.

Senior football is probably more evenly contested, but there is still a dominance held by three clubs.

Increasingly on our underage and senior county teams, an increasing number of players are being sourced from junior and intermediate clubs. What worries me here is the lack of games and poor standard of game players in these grades get in comparison to neighbouring counties. Waterford have to put a lot more work into developing senior players than the likes of Cork or Tipp.

As a result, I think we should explore the possibility of developing Group teams like what is done in Cork and Kerry - with a great deal of success. Cork footballers in particular have a huge amount of junior club players in their ranks - many of whom would not have had a chance to be spotted.

Advantages:

• Player development - talented young players who are playing a lower club standard can benefit from a more competitive senior club standard, while still being able to line out for their home clubs.
• Junior and Inter clubs have reduced risk of losing players - something which has been quite common in Waterford over the years
• The overall standard of the club championship is raised improving the enjoyment for players and spectators
• County sides benefit from more players playing at a higher standard for more of the year

Disadvantages:

• County Board has to put better fixture structures in place
• County Board and clubs have to place a lot of time into planning and strategy
• Some smaller senior clubs will complain about dropping down a grade

Now, I know a lot of people will say it'll never work, but I think many things which are worth doing present challenges and require quite a lot of effort.

Thoughts and opinions?

Have we not been down that road before? The group teams were experimented with before in the late 90s/early 00s and quite frankly were a disaster. We had group teams giving walkovers and not having enough players to field. At senior championship level this is unacceptable. The group teams that did field gave very poor showings with depleted teams and lacked any kind of spine and were well beaten by teams theyd be expected to brush aside. Theres just not the same tradition as in Cork and Kerry or hunger for it, end of story.

The real solution imo, is staring us in the face. The intermediate championships need to be all-county. Scrap the east and western divisions for this grade and use a similar system as is in Cork, an intermediate Premier Grade, and an intermediate 'A grade. 12 teams in each grade, comprimising of 2 groups of 6 in each, guaranteeing each team at least 5 games. The top 2 qualifying for the semis and 2nd and 3rd place in each going into 2 quarter finals. The bottom 2 from each group playing off for relegation. Winners of the A' Grade to go Premier and Premier Grade to go senior. Keep the junior grade divisional alright as with some of the lesser intermediate teams being regraded this would be more competitive anyway.

This system would benefit everyone. It would improve the standard of hurling for staters. Anyone at the intermediate final on sunday would agree with me. There would be less one-sided games and do more to entice people to attend games. The lesser intermediate clubs would have a better chance at a county title in the A' grade and would bring more county semi finals and finals for clubs to get excited about. The Minor championship went all-county this year and anyone that saw the standard on show on Sunday will see the benefits. One of the best in living memory.

hurler on de ditch

hardybuck wrote: »

They would get very good games against the college sides - UL, LIT - both in Limerick, and NUIG and UCC are only an hour or so away probably for them.

GOOD MAN HARDYBUCK

hurler on de ditch

hardybuck wrote: »

They would get very good games against the college sides - UL, LIT - both in Limerick, and NUIG and UCC are only an hour or so away probably for them.

GOOD MAN HARDYBUCK

Et Cetera

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Have we not been down that road before? The group teams were experimented with before in the late 90s/early 00s and quite frankly were a disaster. We had group teams giving walkovers and not having enough players to field. At senior championship level this is unacceptable. The group teams that did field gave very poor showings with depleted teams and lacked any kind of spine and were well beaten by teams theyd be expected to brush aside. Theres just not the same tradition as in Cork and Kerry or hunger for it, end of story.

The real solution imo, is staring us in the face. The intermediate championships need to be all-county. Scrap the east and western divisions for this grade and use a similar system as is in Cork, an intermediate Premier Grade, and an intermediate 'A grade. 12 teams in each grade, comprimising of 2 groups of 6 in each, guaranteeing each team at least 5 games. The top 2 qualifying for the semis and 2nd and 3rd place in each going into 2 quarter finals. The bottom 2 from each group playing off for relegation. Winners of the A' Grade to go Premier and Premier Grade to go senior. Keep the junior grade divisional alright as with some of the lesser intermediate teams being regraded this would be more competitive anyway.

This system would benefit everyone. It would improve the standard of hurling for staters. Anyone at the intermediate final on sunday would agree with me. There would be less one-sided games and do more to entice people to attend games. The lesser intermediate clubs would have a better chance at a county title in the A' grade and would bring more county semi finals and finals for clubs to get excited about. The Minor championship went all-county this year and anyone that saw the standard on show on Sunday will see the benefits. One of the best in living memory.

This. 100%.

The intermediate standard is currently highly diluted in both hurling and football. There's no need for east/west boards full stop, everything should be on an all county basis. With too many teams brings the standard down.

Mountainlad

The Senior championship is three-tiered (or maybe more) but to be fair Ballygunner and De La Salle would walk through the Cork championship at the moment, and there are 250+ clubs in Cork!

I think what is more of an issue is combination teams at underage level.

With clubs like Ballinameela, Modeligo, Mellary, St.Marys and the like being combined in underage teams such as Naoimh Brid (St.Pats) and St.Olivers how are they supposed to get players for Senior teams? If there are five teams involved in the combination, then you'd get say 3 players off the starting 15 maybe, and how many would progress to Senior? How to they survive as teams? Barely staying alive at Junior and Intermediate level. So there is a problem there.

Also, agree completely, the revamp in the underage system has worked wonders, a great decision.

PTH2009

Sad to say but it think 2012 will our transition year. Tony Browne or even Eoin Kelly mite call it a day before the end of this year. A few new players might enter the frame. Id be happy to get to a Quarter final in next years championship. Would love to beat Davy Though

Have a feeling next year will be another Kilkenny vs Tippearary final with maybe Galway or Dublin causing a surprise.

Id be worried with next years league were in with Kilkenny, Tipperary, Dublin, Galway and Cork. The last thing we want is to be in Divison 1B with the likes of Antrim and Offaly

hardybuck

Agree that the prior Group teams weren't a success, but I wonder how much support the county board gave them, and how well the clubs themselves organised it.

In the case of St.Brendans you had three intermediate clubs all around the same standard. As a group they weren't much better than the individual club teams.

I would propose that every player playing below senior in a region could have a punt - and to break the county into regions like Cork and Kerry. City, Mid County and West Waterford to get proper strong teams. In the Brendans example you would have added clubs like John Mitchels, Dunhill, Fenor, Kilmac, Portlaw, Ballyduff. Among those I'm sure you can pull together a strong outfit, and I'm sure a hurling context in somewhere like the west would be similar.

I also agree with an all county intermediate premier, I don't think a junior would work. I think we've gone into that before - I don't think junior players would be prepared to travel from one end of the county to another and would prefer the present arrangement.

Et Cetera

hardybuck wrote: »

Agree that the prior Group teams weren't a success, but I wonder how much support the county board gave them, and how well the clubs themselves organised it.

In the case of St.Brendans you had three intermediate clubs all around the same standard. As a group they weren't much better than the individual club teams.

I would propose that every player playing below senior in a region could have a punt - and to break the county into regions like Cork and Kerry. City, Mid County and West Waterford to get proper strong teams. In the Brendans example you would have added clubs like John Mitchels, Dunhill, Fenor, Kilmac, Portlaw, Ballyduff. Among those I'm sure you can pull together a strong outfit, and I'm sure a hurling context in somewhere like the west would be similar.

I also agree with an all county intermediate premier, I don't think a junior would work. I think we've gone into that before - I don't think junior players would be prepared to travel from one end of the county to another and would prefer the present arrangement.

As you said, it really does stem back to the group teams themselves working together. I've never really seen much evidence to suggest they take it totally seriously in this county. With that said, I wouldn't see anything wrong with WIT playing in the club championship like is done in Cork.

hardybuck

Et Cetera wrote: »

As you said, it really does stem back to the group teams themselves working together. I've never really seen much evidence to suggest they take it totally seriously in this county. With that said, I wouldn't see anything wrong with WIT playing in the club championship like is done in Cork.

No, I think if you place for of a geographic slant you are taking away the club role. The player is being offered the opportunity to step up and take part in a good team in his region.

I would be looking for serious management teams installed who would take the thing seriously and develop players for the county team. Perhaps they could be GDO's who are also charged with promoting games through schools in the area.

WIT again didn't work, and UCC in Cork normally doesn't function either. This year was an odd year when a lot of lads were around at the same time. Obviously UCC is three times the size of WIT and more lads don't move out of Cork to go to college like in Waterford, so they have far more resources.

Et Cetera

hardybuck wrote: »

No, I think if you place for of a geographic slant you are taking away the club role. The player is being offered the opportunity to step up and take part in a good team in his region.

I would be looking for serious management teams installed who would take the thing seriously and develop players for the county team. Perhaps they could be GDO's who are also charged with promoting games through schools in the area.

WIT again didn't work, and UCC in Cork normally doesn't function either. This year was an odd year when a lot of lads were around at the same time. Obviously UCC is three times the size of WIT and more lads don't move out of Cork to go to college like in Waterford, so they have far more resources.

For it to work, UCC (or indeed WIT) don't need to win anything, they just need to be competitive at a mid-senior level which UCC always are in the Cork championship. Not quite sure how WIT did a few years back when they were in it tbh.

hardybuck

Et Cetera wrote: »

For it to work, UCC (or indeed WIT) don't need to win anything, they just need to be competitive at a mid-senior level which UCC always are in the Cork championship. Not quite sure how WIT did a few years back when they were in it tbh.

WIT were awful.

Et Cetera

Really? haha. How awful? Relegation awful?

hardybuck

Et Cetera wrote: »

Really? haha. How awful? Relegation awful?

So bad that the project was scrapped. I think they may have won a relegation playoff but not 100%.

alllcounty

Et Cetera wrote: »

This. 100%.

The intermediate standard is currently highly diluted in both hurling and football. There's no need for east/west boards full stop, everything should be on an all county basis. With too many teams brings the standard down.

I agree that the Intermediate club championship in its present form is not competitive.
Currently there are too many intermediate teams of different standards playing in a diluted competition with each other with the result of a series of average to poor quality games.
I don’t favour the proposal of joining smaller clubs to form senior teams as it takes away from the parish ethos and the interest among people living in each parish of their local team.
How it is possible going into 2012 that our intermediate structure is still divided into an east and west format is a terrible indictment of our county board. For far too long either side of the county has been pulling in different directions with the end result of poor competition both in terms of quality and quanity of games in Waterford. I read in match programmes former players from the 1959 hurling team saying if we were told Waterford would not win another all Ireland for the next 50 years, they could never believe it. They just cannot understand the lack of success since those good years for the Deise between 1957 to 1963. Well the biggest reason for the lack of success in our county has been the fragmented structure of our games in the county. Waterford is not a big county, therefore to have any decent championship, all clubs in the county need to be organised together, to give more games that are at a suitable competitive level whether it is at senior, intermediate premier or intermediate A.
For years our minor structure has been based on this east versus west divide. Teams had one maybe two competitive match’s per year. Compare this to the changes implemented in 2008 where there are 28 minor teams in the county playing in 4 grades. This has allowed more competitive games whether the team is an A team, B team and so on. The last 3 years have also been good for Waterford minor teams who have reached Croke Park near the end of the championship which didn’t happen before. Other factors have added to this such as better coaching and better performances from the schools teams. But the over-riding factor for the progression of the Waterford minor team for the last 3 years has been the changes put through at club level and allowing our clubs compete county wide at this grade. But why cannot those same changes be implemented at intermediate level. You look at other counties like Kilkenny where the county is not divided. This has lead to strong intermediate teams like Dicksboro and Danesfort who will surely be playing in the all Ireland intermediate final. Compare that to the intermediate club winners in Waterford where year after year are beating in the first round. Last year Roanmore were well beating by the tipp champions who in turn were beating by the cork champions. Changes are needed in the structure of our intermediate club set up, but will the county board and those that sit on the east and west divisions be in favour of those changes? I don’t think they will so for the foreseeable future any talk of improving the club games in Waterford is just wishful thinking.

Mountainlad

Never understood universities myslelf. Don't get how the players can come together and train and still be able to train and play with their own clubs, it seems like it would be next to impossible to organise. That said, there is a lot of talent playing for these teams at college level to be fair. But amazing that in one year both UCC and CIT made county finals in Cork. I agree wthough that if you look at where there from, everybody on the UCC team was from either Kerry or Cork.

Cake Man

Harty Cup: DLS beat Charleville (0-19 to 0-12 I think)
but Blackwater were beaten by Thurles (0-14 to 0-11)

The Blackwater boys were probably still drunk from Sunday :pac:

Not sure how West Waterford Colleges got on.

hurler on de ditch

alllcounty wrote: »

I agree that the Intermediate club championship in its present form is not competitive.
Currently there are too many intermediate teams of different standards playing in a diluted competition with each other with the result of a series of average to poor quality games.
I don’t favour the proposal of joining smaller clubs to form senior teams as it takes away from the parish ethos and the interest among people living in each parish of their local team.
How it is possible going into 2012 that our intermediate structure is still divided into an east and west format is a terrible indictment of our county board. For far too long either side of the county has been pulling in different directions with the end result of poor competition both in terms of quality and quanity of games in Waterford. I read in match programmes former players from the 1959 hurling team saying if we were told Waterford would not win another all Ireland for the next 50 years, they could never believe it. They just cannot understand the lack of success since those good years for the Deise between 1957 to 1963. Well the biggest reason for the lack of success in our county has been the fragmented structure of our games in the county. Waterford is not a big county, therefore to have any decent championship, all clubs in the county need to be organised together, to give more games that are at a suitable competitive level whether it is at senior, intermediate premier or intermediate A.
For years our minor structure has been based on this east versus west divide. Teams had one maybe two competitive match’s per year. Compare this to the changes implemented in 2008 where there are 28 minor teams in the county playing in 4 grades. This has allowed more competitive games whether the team is an A team, B team and so on. The last 3 years have also been good for Waterford minor teams who have reached Croke Park near the end of the championship which didn’t happen before. Other factors have added to this such as better coaching and better performances from the schools teams. But the over-riding factor for the progression of the Waterford minor team for the last 3 years has been the changes put through at club level and allowing our clubs compete county wide at this grade. But why cannot those same changes be implemented at intermediate level. You look at other counties like Kilkenny where the county is not divided. This has lead to strong intermediate teams like Dicksboro and Danesfort who will surely be playing in the all Ireland intermediate final. Compare that to the intermediate club winners in Waterford where year after year are beating in the first round. Last year Roanmore were well beating by the tipp champions who in turn were beating by the cork champions. Changes are needed in the structure of our intermediate club set up, but will the county board and those that sit on the east and west divisions be in favour of those changes? I don’t think they will so for the foreseeable future any talk of improving the club games in Waterford is just wishful thinking.

very well put agree 100%

Et Cetera

It's much harder to fully get rid of the divisional boards than you would think, can't just wave a wand.

deisebhoy17

any sign of an allstar team yet? dont they release one team the day or 2 before and its the hurlings turn this year?