Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505744#Comment_119505744

MOST of the greenways around me planned or in construction are of this design believe it or not. Many have a <1m wide "green boundary", but it's basically a shared footpath and cycle lane.

Me victim blaming? Rather the opposite, I was worried I would be considered an apologist for careless cycling!

Personally, I would expect a greenway design to be forgiving of people cycling at a reasonable speed (let's call it 25kmh?). I don't think people should need to slow to a crawl near entrances or side-roads, or bends (of which there are many) just in case someone else makes a mistake. I don't think that's a reasonable design.

But what the councillors tell me is that these greenways aren't intended or designed for cyclists moving at those kinds of speeds. What the replies to the Part 8 generally say is that it is "unlikely that there will be conflict" and that the design is fine.

Should I be cycling on that greenway? I'm erring on the side of caution and staying off it, personally.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505894#Comment_119505894

But these are no different to a driver pulling on to a path/road so I don't see the issue.

Sorry about the victim blaming bit. I thought you were the same guy who said that greenways should have a speed limit (although you did seem to be backing him up)

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505556#Comment_119505556

It is pretty much impossible to have kilometres of largely segregated cycle routes through built up areas. In many cases it wont be possible to get over/under perpendicular roads and there are likely to be existing entrances crossing the cycle route, hence compromises have to be made. The best chance for a few km of uninterrupted cycle route in built up area would along a canal but they still have road crossins and geven the Royal Canal around Phibsborough has to allow cars drive on the Greenway to access houses.

The long distance commuters you talk of can travel fast further out but naturally have to slow down in suburban/urban areas where there is likely to be other users and interaction with motor vehicles. I don't see the issue with this. It is unrealistic to expect a route through suburban/urban areas to allow them maintain a constant high speed.

The problem really is the term Greenway. The level of segregation of the Old Rail Trail or Waterford Greenway can't be achieved in highly developed areas. It creates an unrealistic expectation and really, a different term is needed for urban areas.

cantalach

In terms of terminology, I find that sports cyclist gets the point across. In the lead up to repealing the mandatory use of cycle tracks the term club cyclist was used by some politicians. It's not entirely accurate though because many (most?) sports cyclists are not members of a cycling club or triathlon club.

So, yeah, full disclosure... When I'm out training alone, I tend to ride on longer stretches of extra-urban greenway where provided. The simple reason is that over the years I've grown sick of the agro. I have had enough of horn blowing, punishment passings, windscreen cleaner showers, wheels being spun aggressively, people screaming at me from a few feet away, etc. When I was 20kg lighter and 10kph faster I used to get a charge from all that...adrenaline! But now it just depresses me and I seek to minimise interaction with motorised road traffic wherever possible. Since I gave up Strava, having to slow down for dog-lead-and-airpods-lady doesn't matter to me much. Call me a wimp.

Just to address something Pete_Cavan said:

"If the TdF wannabes want a different class of facility for more sporty use, surely they should be looking to have that provided through Sport funding."

I appreciate that this suggestion is well intended but speaking as a co-founder of a cycling club, I think sport cyclists who do road cycling (i.e. the majority of sport cyclists) neither need nor want any facilities. The very thing that defines road cycling compared to other cycling disciplines is the fact that it happens on the road. It's like field sports taking place on a field. It's intrinsic to the sport.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506768#Comment_119506768

I agree a different term is needed for urban areas.

Luckily we have one. Cycle lane.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119507807#Comment_119507807

I was being a bit facetious about funding for sports cycling facilities, it was in response to a sports cyclist (agree that's a much better term) questioning Transport funding of Greenways because they don't always allow sport-style cycling.

Markcheese

Actually the old black rock railway in cork would be an interesting "study " , it is recreational, it's also commuter .. and while it doesn't have driveways and petrol stations opening on to it ,it is pretty urban in places. .

But it seems to largely work ,possibly down to timing ? Different crowds at different times of the day ..

( I haven't been on it In a while )

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508908#Comment_119508908

Do you not have that backwards. People are saying it should not have transport funding because they are not suitable for commuting not "sport" cycling.

Transport funding should be for efficient transport infrastructure not meandering rail/canal paths.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119506036#Comment_119506036

Yes perhaps I wasn't clear. The issue as I perceive it is that we're seeing a large investment in infrastructure which ostensibly "for cycling". Just not THAT kind of cycling. Or THAT kind of cycling. Or THIS kind of cycling, etc.

I guess I'm complaining that the vagueness of greenway design criteria and usage intent means that the end result will be sub-optimal for many transport-oriented end-users.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509206#Comment_119509206

Very sub-optimal for transport-oriented cyclists yes which is why it shouldn't come out of the transport budget.

Greenways are a cheap way for councillors and TDs to pay themselves on the back and say "look how much we spend on cycling infrastructure" when that's not what it is. Greenways are essentially a park in a straight line rather than square.

It would be like boasting about creating sustainable travel by putting bus lanes on roads with no buses.

Seth Brundle

Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons, the likes of the Grand Canal and Royal Canal greenways (or blueways I guess) have a lot of commuting traffic on them heading into Dublin. The Royal would have more if it was accessible past Blanch.

Greenways can work for commuters and can allow fast moving traffic.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509359#Comment_119509359

A canal through the centre of Dublin is probably the exception in fairness.

I was on a stretch around Charlemont recently that had excellent separated paths and cycle lanes.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509166#Comment_119509166

No, I was saying that it does work for the majority of commter cyclists. That it doesn't allow sports cyclists maintain high speeds is not an issue for most commuting cyclists.

Genuine question; how do you provide that kind of cycle infrastructure in built up areas with high levels of segregation from motor vehicles and not following "meandering rail/canal paths"? Okay you could reallocate large volumes of road space but you will still have regular junctions with other roads and accesses to existing properties which are not compatible with high speed cycling (which was the original complaint here).

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509384#Comment_119509384

As stated the Blackrock/Passage one works pretty well for commuters, too. I think it's reasonable that a cyclist should expect slow pace in the urban area. After all, if you were on the road, you'd be stopping at traffic lights.

Perhaps I'm not getting my point across because the greenway types I'm talking about aren't what everyone else is seeing around them? I'm talking about ones that are predominantly on the side of a road, and used or intended as an inter-urban link or commuter transport link. And if you're to ask me "what's the proposed alternative" I'd suggest side-by-side footpath and cycleway with visibly different surfaces.

Here's an example of one that I feel confident that everyone on here (and the Local Authority) will consider unacceptable:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.8772038,-8.3838037,3a,60y,279.57h,95.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-KmXwWCV-ywIsNihx6yUHg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Here's another:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.8132976,-8.3882609,3a,60y,119.36h,79.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_pm2t7xro6NdFStfzFsUMg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Those are older versions of what's currently being constructed around me. The newer ones look a bit more elegant but they're effectively the same thing. Here's an example:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.9175225,-8.3908961,3a,75y,315h,72.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTFBJFzPNrwHZeTm7Q2phrQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509437#Comment_119509437

This is literally the question. I am not currently convinced that a greenway is an appropriate design for the situation you and I are now describing.

Here's the one that cantalach and I were describing:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.9109804,-8.3108856,3a,75y,254.81h,79.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTnsjAEsyf5CoX3yHoXkL7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509471#Comment_119509471

But my point is that the perfect situation just isn't possible in developed areas, hence why compromises have to be made. I think the perfect is being made the enemy of the good here. In truth, most urban cycle routes are very successful and attract large numbers of users across a wide spectrum. That sports cyclists can't maintain 30km/h shouldn't be a stick to beat them with.

hans aus dtschl

That's a reasonable premise, that we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

But would a side-by-side cycleway and footpath not make more sense?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509581#Comment_119509581

Perhaps, if space allows, but even then, maintaining high speeds may not be possible due to the presence of other users and junctions/accesses (where applicable). I don't think it is realistic to facilitate sports cyclists moving at speed through built up areas no matter what you do.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509437#Comment_119509437

Which greenways do you commute on ?

I'm not asking for or expecting segregation from road traffic in built up areas. A strip of paint where possible to make a cycle lane is enough for me. High speed cycling is still slower than cars 99% of the time so access to properties is the exact same as any other road. The person entering or exiting the property must act with caution and has nothing to do with the speed of the person on the main road.

Junctions can be dealt with using dedicated traffic lights which already exist in Ireland and all over the world.

Anyway I get the feeling you are here on some anti bike rant so best I leave the conversation here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509446#Comment_119509446

Again you are confusing a Greenway and a cycle lane.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509678#Comment_119509678

I'm not sure how you feel I'm confusing the two? These links I have posted are: Blackrock-Passage Greenway, Carrigaline-Crosshaven Greenway, Glounthaune-Carrigtwohill Greenway, Glanmire to Glounthaune greenway.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509703#Comment_119509703

Some of what you listed above are Greenways ya but the links you provided are roads.

Regardless of what the local council call it if it is "predominantly on the side of a road" as you say yourself it's not a Greenway.

Any roadside cycle lane should be treated the same as a road. Why should bikes slow down for every property access ?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509678#Comment_119509678

The topic of conversation is the suitability of our Greenways for commuting sports cyclists (unless I am very mistaken). My point is that speeds in built up areas will always be limited, there will be more junctions and more other users. A strip of paint to separate walking and cycling wouldbe beneficial where there is enough space for wide enough lanes but that is rarely the case. Where it can't be done, users need to share the space and respect each other. The fact is that Greenways attract many different types of users and in my experience, they work well for the majority of them.

If you think I am on an anti bike rant then it is because you are looking for an argument.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509817#Comment_119509817

Again here the terminology may be a problem, but I think we may be all on the same page. "Faster moving cyclists" basically. Are the greenways I'm posting links to, appropriate for them? I don't think so. Would dedicated cycle infrastructure be more appropriate for these? In my opinion yes, but I think you and others don't agree.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509878#Comment_119509878

I commute at 25kph and I would definitely still use them over the road. I'll have to slow for pedestrians of course but it would be worth it to be away from the cars.

I would always take a cycle lane over a road as long as it's as direct as the road.

ArmaniJeanss

Interesting debate (to which I've nothing much to add) but just a thank you to Hans for the google map pics of what passes for 'Greenways' nationally.

I'd 100% assumed whenever I saw a 'greenway' mentioned here or in the media that it was always something like my local one (the Royal Canal route Clonsilla to Maynooth) or the much-publicised Dungarvan one. I never knew so many of them were merely what I'd call footpaths / cycle lanes.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509878#Comment_119509878

Dedicated cycle infrastructure may be more appropriate for these for developing that is not realistic. To maintain high speeds, you need high levels of segregation, which isn't going to be achievable in built up areas. Also, where do you find the space for that dedicated infrastructure into Dublin/Cork/Galway city centres? These "Faster moving cyclists" are too small a group to justify developing dedicated cycle infrastructure, particularly for the cost. What is being built caters for more people at lower cost, it doesn't make sense to duplicate that just to fulfil some peoples desire to travel a bit faster.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510211#Comment_119510211

I must say that I disagree, on the basis that none of what I'm talking about, or that I've given examples of, have been in particularly constrained areas. I haven't been talking about city centres, where I've already said that I have no issue with people slowing down (if you're on the road you'll likely need to stop frequently anyway!). I'm talking about suburban areas along fairly direct routes.

Space doesn't appear to be the primary constraint for these greenways. Nor is cost, given that the effort to build them would be marginally cheaper than fully segregated facilities. And anyway, as we've been saying earlier in this thread, cost isn't a significant factor at the moment anyway: there's a lot of funding available right at the moment.

From discussions with Councillors, the big saving has been in the planning process: it's apparently easier to get these greenways over the line than it is to get dedicated cycle infrastructure over the line. They tell me that complainants block cycle infrastructure more frequently than they do greenways, hence so much being brought forwards as "greenway" now, for the 2 LA's in question.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510200#Comment_119510200

They're still valuable: if you have small kids or whatever then I'm absolutely certain that you'll appreciate the "roadside greenways" I've linked.

My only concern was that when speeds increase and/or volumes of pedestrians increase these become less useful to me. That's countered by others here saying they're pretty happy with them!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510200#Comment_119510200

Basically the term Greenway has become cool and trendy amount councillors.

So what we have now is real greenways running along old train lines and canals and also some cycle lanes and shared paths which are called greenways because it sounds nicer and also some car drivers have heart attacks at any mention of "cycle lane"

The real greenways are the same old trails many of us have probably walked for years just with improved access and pathways.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510821#Comment_119510821

In fairness to councillors, they often choose the path of least resistance, and in this case, they may be right. It's far easier to get funding and, more importantly, political and local support for a "greenway" than basically any other type of cycling project. It might not be accurate, but I can see why they've smudged the definition a bit.