Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

hans aus dtschl

That's kinda the point isn't it? Anything and everything can be a greenway. Some paint on a footpath is a greenway now.

You don't need to adhere to cycling standards because "it's not a cycleway" and you don't need to adhere to pedestrian standards because "it's not a footpath".

So low-standard rubbish can sometimes be built and when people don't actually make a modal shift it's because "people don't want to cycle" etc. And worse: "we spent all this money on a perfectly good greenway and they won't bloody use it, so I'm going to punishment pass them".

There's a greenway at Dunkettle interchange at the moment. It goes from the Dunkettle roundabout to a road to the North of the interchange. It's a low-quality uphill route designed to get people cycling and walking "out of the way of real traffic" and it's being called a greenway.

roadmaster

A Bridge is now in place for the Navan Kingscourt Greenway over the N52

https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2022/08/12/new-bridge-will-link-nobber-and-castletown-greenway-sections/

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475368#Comment_119475368

Yeah, that new uphill (when going east) greenway isn’t great. I do think however that what it connects to at the top of the rise is higher quality, i.e. the emerging greenway all along the old N25 through Glounthane. I find that very usable, even going fast on a road bike. My major gripe is that at the various property entrances that cross over the greenway, there needs to be severe speed bumps so that cars have to almost stop. Drivers aren’t stopping/yielding at the posted signs and I’ve had many close shaves. I just hope it doesn’t require a serious injury or fatality before Cork County Council reacts.

hans aus dtschl

There have been incidents. The council have reacted.

I've spoken to councillors and they've told me "it's not for cyclists who go fast".

You should use the road, I've been told.

QED.

It'd be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous. I know a good few people who have had near misses now and refuse to use it as a result.

whisky_galore

If you are a Tour De France wannabe, a greenway isn't for you.

People have to be told this.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119504060#Comment_119504060

If it intersects loads of driveways and is on the side of a road, it is a cycle lane not a greenway

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119504060#Comment_119504060

Until you use the road and drivers scream at you to get off "their" roads 🤣

I wouldn't make the Ras nevermind the TdF but I tend to avoid the Greenways near me because of the constant yielding to pedestrians.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119504060#Comment_119504060

This is a problem. Not many are willing to say this out-loud in an official capacity, or put it on signage etc. Councillors have told me various things like "it's not for cyclists, it's for kids", "we're building them in the hope that people might decide to cycle" or "they're not for leisure cyclists" or "they're for leisure not commuting" etc.

But honestly from a transport perspective the whole thing just looks like one big dangerous fudge, to me. If you're expecting dogs and small children then it cannot also be an appropriate transport corridor.

For much of the cycling I do, you can consider me a "tour de france wannabe" as you say. I travel at around 30kmh typically. With a tailwind it could be 50kmh. Commuting most days. People like me make up a significant portion of existing cyclists. (Hopefully we're not the majority!)

If I submit at design stage that segregation is needed, I'm told that there will be no conflict between end user types. If I point out the very clear conflict between someone cycling at speed and a pedestrian, the response is that it's "not an appropriate place for faster cyclists to be".

(I think/hope we all agree on here that it's NOT an appropriate place to cycle fast!)

So then the next questions are: what is the appropriate speed, and how can it be enforced? On roads we use lines to segregate users, and/or we use speed limit signage. All of this is considered "faux pas" when it comes to greenways. It's a free-for-all. And the real answer is "no speed is slow enough" because if there's a small child or dog on the greenway you simply must slow to nothing. It's the ONLY responsible decision.

On the other hand we tell people "cycling is convenient" and "cycling can replace your commute" or "e-bikes mean you can go fast with little effort" etc. If I'm slowing to a crawl every few minutes then it's absolutely not going to replace my car commute. Zero chance. So it's a totally inappropriate place for me to cycle and accordingly I use the road beside them most days of the week: I get "punishment passes" for this.

So you can maybe see I'm irritated by some of the current designs. I suspect we're designing greenways for maybe 50-60% of intending cyclists. I believe the funding is coming from the transport budget, but they're patently not for transport. They're for leisure. And they're not even appropriate for a good chunk of leisure users, at that.

Sorry for the very long post!

whisky_galore

Agree, they're being sold as being all things to all people when they're clearly not.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119504215#Comment_119504215

The problem is the transport budget part. Greenways mostly due to route are often not suitable for commuting and are leisure amenities that should be paid for same as parks and sports fields.

The appropriate speed is the safe one which yes means crawling along busy sections as cyclists must yield to pedestrians. No need to enforce it as it seems to be enforcing itself as seen by the lack of incidents on Greenways.

Furze99

The Greenway model is a current sexy 'fad' with local authorities. It all started with the success of the Great Western Greenway in Mayo. As with these things, the other county councils etc looked over their shoulder and said, sure we'll copy that idea. But the Great Western is primarily for the tourism experience and to be used by walkers as well and very different from the needs of an area/ region looking to have sustainable cycling transport for commuting and school runs as well as leisure cyclists and club cyclists etc. This seems lost though on the local authorities who think Greenway = Good and we have nice Funding, so lets build them and have a nice virtue signalling opening event.

Maybe the term Greenway & spec for same should be very definitely kept for rural/ tourism type cycling / walking. And for urban areas build two two parallel cycle/ walk ways; one for children, dogs, buggies, walkers and slow cyclists and another for those who want to travel at a decent speed.

hans aus dtschl

Exactly my thoughts yep. Greenways are not appropriate as urban commuter infrastructure, is my current thinking.

But we're getting exactly that by the absolute bucketload right now, at least in Cork.

Glanmire, Glounthaune, Blackrock/Marina, Midleton, Carrigaline, Harley Street, Mary Elmes Bridge, Dunkettle, Carrigtwohill etc. Storing up lots of problems for the future I believe. I don't know yet whether they'll all be redesigned and rebuilt or whether they'll default to being unused and a waste of money.

(I suspect a mix of both!)

whisky_galore

The Australian 'rail trails' are gravel topped/compacted earth trails. Only suitable for walkers, long distance hikers and mountain bikes, connecting forest parks and towns and villages. They don't pretend to be anything else.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119504443#Comment_119504443

Yep or the opposite side of the coin are the Netherlands "cycle routes" and "fast cycle routes". Basically mini-roads beside the road, including white line down the middle. They'll sometimes include footpaths beside these, but not always. The intent is very clear.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119504431#Comment_119504431

If they end up being unused then they do become viable for the fast cyclists again.

hans aus dtschl

That's true. Every cloud has a silver lining and all that!

flazio

Is there anyway, without going down the "enforcement" route that Greenways could be speed zoned like roads. Say for example The Rail Trail in Westmeath on approach to any of the car parks, stations, built up areas an advisory speed limit of say 10-15 km/h is signposted which reverts to free speed once you get maybe 2-3km away. Those flashing speed indicators popping up everywhere can pick up bikes as well so bring them in as well.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505100#Comment_119505100

Roads are the biggest unnatural killer in this country.

How many people have been killed a bike on a Greenway. There is no safety issue on the Greenway just a bit of inconvenience for cyclists.

mikeryanqs

The distances are to the town centres, not to where the greenway ends.

Pete_Cavan

First off, I don't like the term "tour de france wannabe" but I'm going to use it purely because it has already been used in this discussion and I think everyone knows what is meant by it so no point in introducing a new term. I don't mean it to be derogatory in case it comes across that way. As an aside, I also don't like the term Greenway and feel it's use is so broad that it essentially just means somewhere you can cycle. With no standards for what constitutes a Greenway, the term is meaningless.

Some of the posts above seem to be claiming all commuting cyclists as TdF wannabes but that isn't my experience. TdF wannabes are at best a subset of commuting cyclists (as well as an entirely separate group) so its a bit disingenuous to be talking in terms of commuting cyclists generally. Most commuting cyclists, around Dublin at least, are not looking to travel at high (for a bike) speeds, they just want a hassle free and reliable way of getting to/from work. In that way, most of what are branded as Greenways are adequate for the majority of commuting cyclists and funding from Transport budget is appropriate. I doubt there is much overlap between commuting cyclists and small children/dogs given the times used so I don't think that's an issue.

For the TdF wannabes, most of the existing Greenways are not long enough for them anyway, and those that are are not in urban/suburban areas. In urban/suburban areas, compromises have to be made in terms of the infrastructure and there will naturally be more and broader spread of users. If the TdF wannabes want a different class of facility for more sporty use, surely they should be looking to have that provided through Sport funding.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505287#Comment_119505287

You are speaking from a very Dublin point of view. None of the Greenways I've seen have any use for commuting and are a tourist and leisure facility.

The actual real greenways (old railway tracks) should under no circumstances be funded from money that should go to cycle lanes, lock stations etc.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505100#Comment_119505100

Asking nicely never works in Ireland, neither do penalties unless enforced. Users have to police each other, which sometimes leads to unpleasantness. As we see elsewhere, rules are for other people and will be heartily ignored whether that's litter, speeds, dogs on leads, keeping to one or other side of a greenway, etc.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505287#Comment_119505287

I'm only very slightly at odds with what you're saying: City centre commuters are what I'd consider "utility" cyclists. Most of them are going slowly enough to be reasonably happy with greenway speeds. Most wouldn't dream of wearing lycra. I'd hope they're the majority of cyclists.

However many people I know commute longer distances and are going much faster. Some are doing as much as 30km commutes each way. I, for instance am not looking for a race, I just want to get to work in what is a reasonable timeframe. If an e-bike cuts out at 25kmh, then surely that's not an unreasonable speed to expect to be able to travel at?

You're saying that in urban/suburban areas, compromises have to be made in terms of the infrastructure. I don't fully understand what you mean, if the funding and space are available, why this should be the case? I don't think it's reasonable to plan new greenways, on greenfield or brownfield sites with ample space all around, and not segregate the end users. If there's room for a 4m wide or 6m wide greenway in a urban area, why would we not segregate the end users? This is what I'm talking about.

Many/most greenways I see being commissioned are effectively very wide footpaths on the side of roads. I don't think it's appropriate at all.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505466#Comment_119505466

Even just from a walking perspective, there's sometimes conflict around stretchy dog leads, loose dogs, groups fanning across the path or blocking the way. It seems very odd to me to expect people to all adhere to "unwritten rules" and hope for the best. If it's transport infrastructure.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505127#Comment_119505127

I don't fully agree with you. We're only a few years into the "greenway" thing. I have heard stories of people ending up on bonnets of cars. I also unfortunately expect we'll hear about a pedestrian/cyclist collision sooner or later. I don't think it's only an issue of inconvenience.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505576#Comment_119505576

Bonnet on a Greenway ?

Those are roads you are talking about. Maybe slow the cars down coming to the junctions or maybe people need to have a bit of personal responsibility and not cross over a road without checking.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505610#Comment_119505610

Afraid not, the greenway in Glounthaune. People exiting a housing estate or house or petrol station without looking, is what I was told. Cyclist expected priority, motorist didn't agree!

Edit: here's an image of the "greenway" type I'm talking about and the approximate location I'm talking about (thanks, CorkRunning blog!). https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-no19mXhHXjU/Xhmw5F7v7XI/AAAAAAABGnA/6elmYqBKbekSxoUkbV4xfvXo9UNJ1OwcACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Burys-Bridge-Carrigtwohill-path-elm.jpg

This type of greenway just seems chaotic to me.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119500731#Comment_119500731

Exactly as cantalach says here, actually, come to think of it. Drivers don't yield across that particular greenway, in my experience. They're not expecting cyclists to be moving at anything like a reasonable pace. Perhaps they treat it like they treat footpaths, and expect priority across it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505622#Comment_119505622

Right I haven't seen one like that before. That to me looks like a roadside cycle lane.

And I don't see how forcing the bikes to slowdown solves people pulling out of houses and petrol stations. Victim blaming is what you are at.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119505562#Comment_119505562

Problem is, even when the rules ARE written, they're ignored.