Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119548918#Comment_119548918

How have they dealt with accessing the businesses there?

It looks like you have 2 houses, a shop, an off licence and an apartment building; is there just one access point or is it bandit country with access the entire length of where bike path/lane crosses front of properties?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119553035#Comment_119553035

In short, there's an "entrance" on the West and a combined "Entrance/Exit" on the East.

The shop has expanded across the full commercial footprint, and I believe the houses may actually be part of the shop too. So it's just the shop and apartments. There's two or three crossings of the greenway in one short stretch. Private dwelling access etc. I'll try and take some pics.

hans aus dtschl

As requested pics of the Glounthaune Greenway below...hopefully the below come through. I was dashing across the road so the pics aren't perfect. To answer the question as clearly as I can: these are the only places where vehicles can access the shop.

Greenway1.png

Greenway2.png

Greenway3.png

Risoc

That really isn't a greenway, is it?

To be fair to the whingey priveleged shop-owners, it does look dangerous. Having said that, it used be more lethal.

breezy1985

I still don't see how it's dangerous. Many of the cars parked in the hard shoulder had to cross a lane of traffic to park. I bet they all stopped checked for on coming traffic and waited till it was safe.

The only danger is car drivers who think they can bomb through a pedestrian footpath/cycle lane without checking to see if the way is clear.

That's dangerous drivers not a dangerous path.

9320

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119558517#Comment_119558517

I know it's not what you mean but vehicles can't access shops, only people can.

There's still parking on the hard shoulder, as seen in your photos, this seems to me to be pure driver error - cyclists definitely have priority here. Any collision would have to be driver's fault.

It's definitely safer than what was there before you'd have to agree.

hans aus dtschl

Bad drivers yep, no question. But we all see it from the 2-wheeled perspective, here.

Say you've never cycled. Who has right of way as you go towards the shop? Who is crossing a line? What do the sharks teeth mean? What does the red surface mean? It's not an extremely legible environment from a drivers perspective.

If the cyclist is moving faster than the driver (very possible here) and "undertakes" the left-indicating driver, who has right of way? I presume it's a question of whether they are considered to be "undertaking". We'd all say no, but it's not explicit: the driver isn't crossing a road lane that I can see.

Obviously everyone in this thread will be looking both ways for greenway users, but some motorists aren't of that mindset, and there's nothing really clear there from my perspective, telling them that they do not have priority as they cross the greenway.

Edit: just to pre-empt the obvious question of what I'd like to see... a white line on the greenway and/or a yield sign facing the road wouldn't go amiss! And make the red "speed bump" more severe. Or perhaps have the greenway itself a different colour/surface than the road, to show that it carries on straight, and drivers are "crossing" it. I don't think that painting a zebra crossing would suffice.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119559026#Comment_119559026

Sorry I posted before I read this. It's waaaay safer than before. Several people crashed SUV's right IN the door of that shop and flipped vehicles into the shop door. It was an absolute death trap. And the road itself was always extremely sketchy, passing on bike or car: people just drove at full tilt both in and out of the parking area. It was crazy.

On the "vehicles accessing the shop" I meant "vehicles accessing the shop-side parking area yep :D. The autonomous vehicles don't yet visit that shop, that I know of.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119559044#Comment_119559044

Simple the driver is crossing a footpath so has to practice due care.

If car drivers are not of the mindset that they need to check for pedestrians/traffic/bikes when crossing a lane or path then they should not have a license.

Can drivers entering a garage or driveway just fly in without checking to see if it's clear ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119559168#Comment_119559168

A few minutes of review the "Near Misses" thread on the cycling forum will show you that no amount of education or expected responsibility will prevent poor driving and protect vulnerable pedestrians and cyclists.

Where safety has been engineered in as a solution, the risk is typically eliminated

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119559330#Comment_119559330

Traffic lights are about the only solution here. That or an underground carpark or bridge.

If we go with traffic lights then every single left turn with a bike lane needs them along with a lot of petrol stations and shops that have paths crossing the entrance.

hans aus dtschl

I don't think traffic lights would be workable, but I do think the greenway needs to be delineated. I think what they've created, really, is speed bump markings to warn motorists that they might damage their vehicle if they drive too quickly. I could be wrong on this one, but I don't think anything they've done explicitly tells motorists that they must yield. I don't think there's even a line that they're crossing.

Obviously I, (and probably everyone who knows me :D) will be watching out for cyclists here, but it's possible for bad drivers to make a mistake.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119559607#Comment_119559607

Your still ignoring the point with your lines and bumps and all that.

No line is needed as everyone knows you have to stop and look before crossing a path or lane. Shops all over the country have entrances that require you to cross a path and no special requirements are needed.

Delineate all you want because it won't make it one bit safer because nyone who doesn't do the above is doing so because they are a fking cnt and not because they there was no line drawn on the road.

Your still trying to blame everyone except the motorist.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119559905#Comment_119559905

Crossing what path? What tells the motorist that they're crossing a path? It's the same colour as the road, or the same colour as the car park they're driving around. It's a speed bump, no?

I don't actually care about "blame". "Blame" is a reasonably unproductive after-the-event discussion. I'd prefer to discuss "prevention", if possible. In simple terms: how do we prevent motorists from making mistakes here.

And if you say "it's just one inattentive motorist" then my riposte will be "there's a lot of inattentive motorists on this stretch of greenway, going by the number of collisions and near-misses"... so maybe someone should do something about it.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119559330#Comment_119559330

This is exactly where my head is at. Safety should be engineered in. We shouldn't be reliant on the vigilance of motorists, because they're often not very vigilant at all.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119560434#Comment_119560434

There is a concrete path that turns into an opening that is clearly marked.

Nobody turning into anything like that should be doing so without due care regardless of the colour of anything.

If I was turning in there with my bike I would be fully aware that there will be people crossing my path and also nobody absolutely nobody doesn't know they are pulling into a shop car park which is full of hazards.

Any driver making that turn regardless of what he thinks that off road tarmac path is is an absolute prk if he takes it at speed. No amount of signs is stopping anyone. It's traffic lights or nothing. It's not naivety that is causing accidents.

By your standards every driveway in the country needs a yield sign.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119560873#Comment_119560873

But the problem is that there are lots of people who turn into absolute pricks when they are behind the wheel. @[Deleted User] earlier mentioned the "Near Miss" thread in the cycling forum. This was posted there this morning and is in no way unusual...

Cycling in from Parkgate St towards the quays this morning at 06:30 and at Wolftone Quay (here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.347412,-6.2902263,3a,75y,105.12h,72.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-16pGzQtZgjZ8FaUTsX2Sg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) using the narrow and poorly surfaced dedicated cycle lane there was a cyclist in front of me so had reduced speed. Silver Prius left hooked us and cyclist in front nearly went over the handlebars with rear wheel off the road trying to brake in time. I’m covered in high vis with two rear lights and a strong front light used to light dark country roads so he saw us but proceeded anyway so I let a shout and he stopped after he’d completed his turn. He then got out of his car to defend his decision and was adamant he had right of way and that cyclists had to yield to him and for some reason he kept pointing at the sign above which is No Left Turn from 07:00 – 10:00, Mon – Sat. Calmer than I’d usually be since it wasn’t too much of a close pass for me and it’s a section I’d always be weary off I just said if you’re that stupid you can plead your case with the guards which he was very willing to do. Will log a call with traffic watch later with the details and his registration since it’s something he’ll do again with his might is right ruling.

In the UK he would be a typical candidate for A Driver’s Awareness course but here nothing will happen since he didn’t kill anyone. Hopefully the guard can at least advise him as there was no point in me arguing with him this morning so I continued on.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119560918#Comment_119560918

I agree and no amount of signs or road marking will stop that because it's not a design flaw it's a humanity flaw. With the exception of traffic lights nothing will have the affect Hans wants as signage will be ignored and even traffic lights will be ignored to an extent.

It's the same as how every driver knows that indication is the law but loads don't bother.

whyulittle

The first section of the bridge in Athlone leaving its staging area to float the short distance down the river to be installed.

https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/2022/09/02/installation-of-athlones-new-cycleway-bridge-about-to-get-underway/

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119558807#Comment_119558807

To me, that is the very same logic as “guns don’t kill people - people kill people”. While road user education has its place in improving road safety, making roads intrinsically safer by design makes a far greater contribution. Let’s consider a non-cycling example. Wherever a main road pass through a village, it has become the norm in the last 20 years for the relevant authority to put in place traffic calming measures that essentially force vehicles to slow to the posted speed limit. Your perspective seems to be that these measures are unnecessary, that a wide main road through a village isn’t dangerous at all and that it is only the speeding motorists that are dangerous. I reject that. Infrastructure exists in the real world where drivers are imperfect. There’s no point being right but dead.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564801#Comment_119564801

We are not talking about a straight road we are talking about a car turning across a path

What is your suggestion for this particular junction or similar ones ?

It already has a speed bump so outside of lights (which I have been told won't work here) what will make drivers check before turning here. The suggestion that started this argument was that cyclists should have a speed limit slapped on when approaching the junction.

roc77

First of 3 sections installed on Saturday.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119565228#Comment_119565228

I don't believe anyone mentioned cycle speed limits as part of the measures required here. I realise that you may not want to discuss with me directly, but I have suggested more severe speed bumps, a different colour surface for the greenway, and white lines on the greenway edges that the car must "cross".

What's there at the moment is a gentle gradient painted red with white "sharks teeth" and a greenway surface of the same colour as the road and car park, with a crossing motorist "stop" line painted on it, where cars will presumably wait - on the greenway - for a break in traffic.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573130#Comment_119573130

I'de have no problem with all of those things. I don't think they will help that much or at all but they are certainly welcome all the same.

Just to be clear it wasnt you who mentioned the speed limit.

Large bottle small glass

You are trying to find an answer to a difficult problem which has resulted from poor/nonexistent planning.

A commercial facility with open access on the side of a former national primary road is really difficult to build safe infrastructure around.

Also new infrastructure always takes time for all road users to get used to eg those kerb to protect cycle lanes in Cork city created a trip hazard for pedestrians which resolved over time; helped no doubt by a High Court appeal dismissing one of the resultant claims.

Cycle lanes are easy to design and build until you get to junctions; the solution is often some non standard Hodge Podge or just yield fcukers 😰

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571408#Comment_119571408

Is there a map or plan which shows how and where this bridge will connect to the Greenway?

At present does the Greenway just end abruptly where it hits the Ballymahon road?

whyulittle

No it has already been extended past that. Continues along the rail track, through the hospital grounds and ends at the entrance of the marina.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4258307,-7.9420463,3a,75y,244.85h,94.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR7U9dlQ_IMYPI1foL5-mXQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Jayuu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119558517#Comment_119558517

Maybe I'm missing something here but to me the problem seems to be one of signage to indicate to cars that they should give way to cyclists assuming that is how the right of way is meant to be. You can see in the second image on what I assume is the exit that there is a STOP sign for cars crossing cycle lane.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119575631#Comment_119575631

Yup. Exactly my thoughts.

Coming from the car park I believe there's no ramp markings also So the greenway kinda "blends into" the car park. It should be easy to put in a white line, and a stop sign.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119575631#Comment_119575631

Yes. At last. This.

Signs, flashing lights whatever it takes.

Anything else assumes that all callers to the shop, apts etc are local and sick to death of hearing greenway this and greenway that in their local media and are well aware of it. The usual berating of 'motorist' as if they're some sort of separate, alien species, funnily enough most cyclists are also motorists. Both are human and both are well capable of fcuking up.