Your thoughts on pet cats roaming free

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

Cats are not kids. And if you wish to compare them, how about this - if my kid was to vandalise property (not that he could, being a year old!), I would most likely be expected to pay for the damages. Are you willing to pay for the damages your cats do to other people's property?

It's not about intolerance. It's about responsibility. To own a cat is fine, however that ownership implies responsibility. If you're not willing to accept this, you should not own the animals in the first place.

There is no legal requirement to control a cat because the law recognises that it is impossible without caging it.

Bizzum

Discodog wrote: »

There is no legal requirement to control a cat because the law recognises that it is impossible without caging it.

There is no legal requirement to neuter your dog/cat but it's still the right (generally) thing to do as it addresses a problem.

If you own a nuisance cat that you allow roam free don't be surprised if they don't come home some day.

I'm not trying to blow this problem out of all proportion, it's not a massive problem for me, but it has occured, and necessary steps have to be taken. Vermin control is simply another aspect of farming, albeit a minor one.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

There is no legal requirement to control a cat because the law recognises that it is impossible without caging it.

Fine, but that doesn't address the point I made - namely, do you think that the owners of these cats should be financially responsible for the damage they may cause

EDIT: You also raise an interesting point - you state that it is impossible to control a cat? In what way is it then domesticated and therefore how can it be considered a valid pet?

Heroditas

We have three cats and only occasionally allow them out for "supervised play". We've had two of them since they were only a few weeks old so they've never really had an opportunity to experience outdoors or miss it.
The third arrived as a waif last year and adopted us. Whenever we open either the front or back door, she runs away from it as if to say "you have to be kidding me! I lived on the street for a year or two.... do you think I'm going back to that life?!"
She's set foot outside the house TWICE in the last year while the others have been out a good few times.

They like their comforts, y'see.

kildare.17hmr

Discodog wrote: »

Many pet cats do not wear collars & those that do can easily lose them.

Cats have a surprisingly long range so just because you can't see a house it doesn't mean that the cat is not a pet.

Any cat could be "hanging around livestock or bales".


There is no way of knowing for sure that you are not killing someone's pet.

Well then if people care about their "pets" they should keep an eye on them.

I will add i only really do this when asked by a farmer. sometimes he might ask to get rid of them all

Discodog wrote: »

There is no legal requirement to control a cat because the law recognises that it is impossible without caging it.

Id love to see where it says thats why its not a legal requirement. if im wrong ill hold my hands up and say so but im gonna go out on a lim here and say YOU JUST MADE THAT UP!

The Sweeper

Outdoor restricted access using exclusion fencing or a cat run. The cats get to be outside but only in your garden, they don't crap in the neighbour's yard, they don't tease the neighbour's dog and cause nuisance barking, they don't fight, they don't spread and contract disease by fighting, they don't get attacked by dogs, they don't get hurt by people who don't like cats, they won't get shot, they won't be hit by a car.

kildare.17hmr

The Sweeper wrote: »

Outdoor restricted access using exclusion fencing or a cat run. The cats get to be outside but only in your garden, they don't crap in the neighbour's yard, they don't tease the neighbour's dog and cause nuisance barking, they don't fight, they don't spread and contract disease by fighting, they don't get attacked by dogs, they don't get hurt by people who don't like cats, they won't get shot, they won't be hit by a car.

exactly. I built a run for my dogs to keep them in and it works perfectly and didn't cost much because i did it myself. I was in an open farm in kildare last year with the kids and they have a act run on the side of the house with a window into the house and a tree and other things for them to climbe on

anniehoo

Kildare you started a thread on peoples "thoughts" so you had to expect to get a completely opposite opinion to your own. I honestly do appreciate your point of view, but it doesnt mean i have to agree with you and the the same for you. Its about tolerance at the end of the day and whats reasonable to complain about and whats not. I tolerate a lot with my neighbours that i probably could complain about,but i let it go, otherwise id be a stressed out control freak. I could go to my management company every single day with a complaint about noise, kids breaking things in the estate etc

Im reading about comparisons to cows here. Seriously? You have a garden...not a sterile sanitised lab...a garden.It is teeming with organisms and parasites from all walks of life. Its common sense regardless of whether a cat was ever on your property to make sure your child understands its never clean...ever! My point is not "moot" regarding the lack of potential health hazards from dewormed pets. You have a far likelier chance of getting salmonella or cryptosporidium from wild bird faeces than anything from my cat. Do you freak out as much when a bird lands on your wall???You could nearly guarantee that swabbing surfaces in your bathroom will be positive for faecal coliforms.

An urban environment is also vastly different to what a farmer has to deal with and shouldnt be compared at all. We'd be all day arguing that one. Snails (yes snails) are a huge risk to their livestock (intermediate host for canine and bovine lungworm). The same level of worry does not need to be applied to snails in an urban environment unless you've an unwormed pet. A bit of perspective really needs to be applied for this particular debate and level of understanding of the health consequences of every animal too.

kildare.17hmr

i thought it would be split down the middle which it fairly does seem to be. Im in no way a control freak im very easy going and in other peoples houses like my grand mothers i have no problem with cats, id go there for lunch the odd time if im working that area and her cats would be all over me and its not a problem.

My garden has a few feeders for birds, they are more than welcome.

Maybe if the thread was about cats and dogs it might be different? If it was dogs sitting all over your garden im sure you and a few others would be just as annoyed as me with the cats am i right?

At the end of the day other peoples cats come in, ****, fit open bags, let themselves into my house and it is me or my girl who has to clean up their mess not their socalled owner! To me thats bull

DBB

To those that have cats and who clearly make it their business to be responsible for where they are and what they're doing, I applaud you. You are utterly respectful not just of your neighbours, but of your cats too, because you are protecting them from harm, as all pet owners should do.
Similarly, I applaud the owners of any animals, whatever species they are, who stand up to the mark and ensure their safety at all times.

To those who don't care where their cat is and allows it out to roam free like the wild animal he is, could you please PM me your address.
I'd like to bring my dogs around to crap in your garden, as clearly it's not a problem for you. Oh, it's okay, don't worry... they're wormed.
If it's okay by you, I'll get my dogs to dig up your vegetable patch and plants, causing you several hundred euros worth of damage. Oh, no need to be surprised they'd do this, sure isn't it natural behaviour.. they're just demonstrating their wild instincts! That's okay, isn't it?
Oh yes, if you don't mind, my dogs are just going to kill a multitude of the songbirds you have taken the time and energy to attract to your garden. You don't mind.. do you? It's natural behaviour, you see!
Dogs will be dogs after all!
What? You want me to keep my dogs on MY property? And pay for proper fencing to stop them getting out to damage other people's property? Like any responsible owner of any animal should do? Surely you don't want me to restrict their free spirits like this.. it's bad karma!
What do you mean, if I want to see a wild animal behaving naturally that I should go on safari!

I have no problem with cats. I have a big problem with owners who don;t take responsibility for them. As long as I can't be as responsible for my cats as I am for my dogs, I won't get one. I don't see why anyone should have to suffer for my lack of social responsibility, or my animals have to suffer because I'm not looking out for them wherever they are.

borderlinemeath

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Well then if people care about their "pets" they should keep an eye on them.

I will add i only really do this when asked by a farmer. sometimes he might ask to get rid of them all

So you're not even the farmer/landowner and you say you treat cats like they're vermin if they're in a field?

So you will eradicate peoples pets at the request of a farmer, and not have any thought for the owner? :eek:

Seriously, you are a bit warped when it comes to pet ownership.

DBB

borderlinemeath wrote: »

So you will eradicate peoples pets at the request of a farmer, and not have any thought for the owner? :eek:

The cat is entirely the responsibility of its owner. It is the owner's fault if their cat gets knocked down, shot, killed by dogs, whatever.
Just like it's my fault of my dog gets out and causes damage, gets shot whilst chasing sheep, causes damage to a car that knocks him down etc.

Similarly, if a farmer's livestock get out and damage someone else's property, the farmer is liable for damages.

Can I ask people who have a problem with farmers protecting their livelihood (and it is common for farmers to ask local lads who are good with a gun to shoot vermin on their farms)... how do you feel about a farmer shooting a dog that is worrying/killing his livestock?

Bizzum

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Seriously, you are a bit warped when it comes to pet ownership.

I would content that the warped one are those that allow their 'pets' (or pests) roam freely without a care in the world as to the damage they do.

Is this responsible pet owenrship?

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Id love to see where it says thats why its not a legal requirement. if im wrong ill hold my hands up and say so but im gonna go out on a lim here and say YOU JUST MADE THAT UP!

Law doesn't work that way. There is only a legal obligation to control an animal if the law dictates it & there is no law to control cats. We have dog law, horse law, livestock law etc but not for the control of cats. If you think I am making it up then do a few searches - maybe you can find something that I have missed.

borderlinemeath

DBB wrote: »

The cat is entirely the responsibility of its owner. It is the owner's fault if their cat gets knocked down, shot, killed by dogs, whatever.

Can I ask people who have a problem with farmers protecting their livelihood (and it is common for farmers to ask local lads who are good with a gun to shoot vermin on their farms)... how do you feel about a farmer shooting a dog that is worrying/killing his livestock?

I have a dog, I live in the country, I understand perfectly if a farmer has to shoot a dog that is worrying his livestock. We have done everything in our power to ensure our dog doesn't get outside the perimeters of our land and at considerable expense.

However, Kildare describing cats that could be other peoples pets as "vermin" really upsets me. Then reveals he isn't even the landowner/farmer. He description is almost sadistic, almost like those fcukers who "aim" for cats on the road.

My neighbours cats roam about, and cut across our land and go over to the farmer across the road and he has never had issue with it, he gets on very well with my neighbours and has dogs and cats himself. If he took his shotgun to them for worrying his chickens then maybe I would understand, but the only reason that Kildare has put across is because they allegedly rip the ties on silage. I don't think that any animal should be shot for allegedly doing this.

anniehoo

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

i thought it would be split down the middle

Its split alright but not

wrote:

fairly

as the "anti cat" people arent reasonably explaining their argument tbh and it doesnt seem to end well for the cat...any cat.

Imagine if i was your neighbour and HATED birds and killed every bird that crossed my property yet you adore them and actively encourage them to your garden:

wrote:

My garden has a few feeders for birds, they are more than welcome.

They defaecate all over my washing line, my car, carry numerous parasites, eat my new seedlings etc. What would you do? Seriously. Would you respect my opinion and remove your bird feeder,continue and pay no heed or try and reach a compromise and see where im coming from?

I make sure my cats are healthy (wormed),wear a collar (reflective so drivers can see them),tagged for identification with bells to minimise wildlife casualties,only let them out in the evening and back in at night so arent let roam all day, if they leave hair on the main stairs i hoover it up.

Im not irresponsible or have no regard for my neighbours...i do my utmost to make sure i cause them minimal fuss. They have 2 litter trays which they use and if i did see them foul outside (which i havent) i would have no hesitation in cleaning it up. Us cat owners do care about our neighbours believe it or not, so maybe that you see the lengths i go to cause minimal hassle you mightnt think so bad of us

john t

Cats should not be allowed to roam freely....

DBB

Which owner do I contact re wild birds defaecating on my property?
They don't have owners, do they? But cats do. As do dogs. And for them, we must take responsibility.
There is no excuse, none whatsoever, for other people's pets defaecating in my garden or damaging my property.

Discodog

DBB wrote: »

The cat is entirely the responsibility of its owner. It is the owner's fault if their cat gets knocked down, shot, killed by dogs, whatever.
Just like it's my fault of my dog gets out and causes damage, gets shot whilst chasing sheep, causes damage to a car that knocks him down etc.

Similarly, if a farmer's livestock get out and damage someone else's property, the farmer is liable for damages.

Can I ask people who have a problem with farmers protecting their livelihood (and it is common for farmers to ask local lads who are good with a gun to shoot vermin on their farms)... how do you feel about a farmer shooting a dog that is worrying/killing his livestock?

I am surprised that you, as a perceived animal lover, would make these remarks. How is a cat worrying or killing livestock ? How is a cat vermin when it's catching mice & rats for food ? Farms have always had a population of cats that were encouraged by the farmer to reduce the losses of grain etc to rats.

The crux of this discussion is whether you can control a cat. The law & past history accepts that you can't. I think that it is totally unrealistic to suddenly expect 100,000 Cat owners to contain their cats.

DBB

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I have a dog, I live in the country, I understand perfectly if a farmer has to shoot a dog that is worrying his livestock. We have done everything in our power to ensure our dog doesn't get outside the perimeters of our land and at considerable expense.

My enquiry about farmers shooting dogs wasn't aimed specifically at you, borderlinemeath:).. it's a general enquiry of everyone who feels it's okay to allow their cats roam and seem mystified that the farmer shouldn't be angry that his livelihood has been affected when silage bales are destroyed by cats (and crows, which ARE wild animals and nobody is liable for damage caused by them: and I don't think it's "alleged" damage by cats). One hole in silage wrapping and the bale is ruined. Each bale is worth somewhere between €20-30.
Thank you for your reply, all the same, but it is a general enquiry!

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

Fine, but that doesn't address the point I made - namely, do you think that the owners of these cats should be financially responsible for the damage they may cause

EDIT: You also raise an interesting point - you state that it is impossible to control a cat? In what way is it then domesticated and therefore how can it be considered a valid pet?

I have no idea if you could sue the owner of a cat, for example if it scratched the paintwork on your car. But the type of damage that people are referring to here is unlikely to be perceived as being of any value. Also proving that a specific cat did the damage would be difficult.

It is domesticated because it has a mutually beneficial relationship with it's owner. It could be caged but one might argue that this constitutes cruelty if it deprives the cat of sufficient exercise etc.

Bizzum

Anyone gonna tell me who is going to fix the ruined silage bales?
Who is going to replace them?

Anyone?

Discodog??????????

Should I bury my head in the sand and ignore it?
Who will feed my stock in the winter when I open the bales to find them rotten?

Who will I ring?

kildare.17hmr

borderlinemeath wrote: »

So you're not even the farmer/landowner and you say you treat cats like they're vermin if they're in a field?

So you will eradicate peoples pets at the request of a farmer, and not have any thought for the owner? :eek:

Seriously, you are a bit warped when it comes to pet ownership.

I shoot on farms where the farmer has not got his own gun or is too old to do it his self anymore, he lets me shoot there so if he asks me to help him out i will no problem once its legal.

in answer to the first part of your second question, yes if they are causing a problem. in answer to the second part, of course i have a thought for the owner. the last dog i shot was a collie that the owner let out every evening for a walk:rolleyes: and started chasing sheep and killed a few. the gards were notified and said grand shoot away and let us know if anything happens. that owner ended up with a dead dog and a bill for a few hundred quid for the sheep. Had that been a responsible pet owner the dog would have been walked on a lead by the owner and would prob be curled up in in its bed now. tell me who was wrong there?

Im certainly not warped i am a responsible owner

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I shoot on farms where the farmer has not got his own gun or is too old to do it his self anymore, he lets me shoot there so if he asks me to help him out i will no problem once its legal.

in answer to the first part of your second question, yes if they are causing a problem. in answer to the second part, of course i have a thought for the owner. the last dog i shot was a collie that the owner let out every evening for a walk:rolleyes: and started chasing sheep and killed a few. the gards were notified and said grand shoot away and let us know if anything happens. that owner ended up with a dead dog and a bill for a few hundred quid for the sheep. Had that been a responsible pet owner the dog would have been walked on a lead by the owner and would prob be curled up in in its bed now. tell me who was wrong there?

Im certainly not warped i am a responsible owner

So you shoot cats for pleasure or are you such a magnanimous chap that you offer to do the farmers dirty work for him even though you hate doing it ?

I am staggered that a dog owner could shoot a dog rather than trying to catch it or trace it back to an owner.

Same old Ireland - punish the animal & not the owner.

kildare.17hmr

Discodog wrote: »

So you shoot cats for pleasure or are you such a magnanimous chap that you offer to do the farmers dirty work for him even though you hate doing it ?

I am staggered that a dog owner could shoot a dog rather than trying to catch it or trace it back to an owner.

Same old Ireland - punish the animal & not the owner.

:rolleyes:

Discodog

Bizzum wrote: »

Anyone gonna tell me who is going to fix the ruined silage bales?
Who is going to replace them?

Anyone?

Discodog??????????

Should I bury my head in the sand and ignore it?
Who will feed my stock in the winter when I open the bales to find them rotten?

Who will I ring?

Well firstly the majority of damage is done by birds. Secondly good farming practice recommends that bales are netted. Thirdly are the cats trying to get into the bales to catch mice or rats that are already in them ruining the silage ?

ISDW

I thought that by law, cats aren't 'owned' as they aren't legally a domestic animal? Which is why they have no protection under the law - if you hit a cat with your car you don't have to stop, unlike with a dog (I think, is that way in the UK, assume its the same here, as dogs are licensed?)

My cats roam free, I live in the middle of nowhere, they go in my front garden, in my lane and into my fields. They do also go into my neighbours field, but there are no bales in there. I also have visits from the feral cats that live on my neighbour's property. They come in through our cat flap and eat my cats food:rolleyes: A couple of years ago there was a feral cat and her kitten sheltering in my kennel block from a torrential downpour - imagine going into a building with lots of dogs in for safety:eek:

If we do move back to a more urban environment, I plan to build a cat run, to keep my cats safe from my dogs as well as other things like cars, as we won't have the land that I now have.

homerhop

planetX wrote: »

I'd rather live next door to 20 cats than one man with a gun.

I know both men and women who own guns and have never shot a living creature, their sport is target shooting. Should I go around stero typing everyone with a staffy or bull breed like you just have someone who owns a gun?

DBB

Discodog wrote: »

I am surprised that you, as a perceived animal lover, would make these remarks. How is a cat worrying or killing livestock ? How is a cat vermin when it's catching mice & rats for food ? Farms have always had a population of cats that were encouraged by the farmer to reduce the losses of grain etc to rats.

The crux of this discussion is whether you can control a cat. The law & past history accepts that you can't. I think that it is totally unrealistic to suddenly expect 100,000 Cat owners to contain their cats.

"Perceived" animal lover? For goodness sake, Discodog, master of the sweeping statement, will you ever cop yourself on?:rolleyes:

This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether I like animals or not. That is not in question, and I have made it clear that I do not blame the cats, I blame their owners. So enough of this "perceived" animal lover nonsense, it's just silly:rolleyes:
If someone's animal causes damage to another's property, then compensation must me made. But when have you ever heard of the owner of a cat being found, that they can pay their dues? Never. Handy, huh?
As you may know, there is no mention in law of cats: neither does it say anywhere in law that they don't legislate for cats because they know it's impossible to enforce. You did, in fact, make that up. And indeed, you may know from talking to people who have expertise in cats, that cats, because they have no protection in law, are often considered vermin. I didn't coin that phrase... the first time I heard it was from someone deeply involved in cat rescue.

I am not saying anything about cats worrying livestock. Look at my post again: it says DOGS worrying livestock, not cats. You've gone and added 2 and 2 together and got a ridiculous answer.
Allow me to explain my point, as you clearly decided to misinterpret it.
Anyone who owns a dog which worries/kills livestock, because they are responsible for their dog's actions, can expect to (a) have their dog shot, and (b) to have to pay compensation to the farmer, who as an innocent party in the whole affair, has suffered loss to his livelihood.
So, I wondered, what is the difference when somebody's cat, and because it is their cat they are responsible for it, destroys a number of silage bales belonging to a farmer, who is still an innocent party in the whole affair?
Why shouldn't a cat owner have to take the same responsibility for their cat as a dog owner has to take for their dog? The fact that the owners can't be found leaves farmers with little option.

I'm not talking about farm cats that catch mice, rats etc. At least these cats BELONG to the farmer. Farmers storing baled silage probably don't keep cats much. And not all farms keep grain which attracts rats. I'm talking about cats that are allowed to stray onto someone else's property. So, again the question remains, why should the farmer have to suffer damage from someone else's animal, dog, cat, or whatever species?

I know a number of people who control their cats very well. They have super outdoor runs for them. They have gone to the same trouble to be responsible for their cats as I have for my dogs. So it's not in question at all that it can be done. If the owner is truly responsible, they'll do what has to be done. It's not done because people know fine well they can get away with not taking responsibility for their cats.

homerhop

Discodog wrote: »

Well firstly the majority of damage is done by birds. Secondly good farming practice recommends that bales are netted. Thirdly are the cats trying to get into the bales to catch mice or rats that are already in them ruining the silage ?

Can they net wrap silage bales?