Denver Broncos Thread

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

Bill Belichick, Mike Shanahan, Tony Dungy, Mike McCarthy and many others have said that they believe Tebow can be great... i'd classify them as having a zen like knowledge of the game and knowing better than any one of us here given that they combine for 7 superbowl rings between them

Yeah they believe he can be great with the right work. They didn't say he was a guy they would stick in straight away. As many experts have said though he is still behind and is still a project player as he still has kinks that need fixing.

spiralism

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Yeah they believe he can be great with the right work. They didn't say he was a guy they would stick in straight away. As many experts have said though he is still behind and is still a project player as he still has kinks that need fixing.

so why not do it now? he's a gamer, he's the type that needs to learn in a game situation and this team wont go anywhere this year, whats the risk?

Johnny_Fontane

spiralism wrote: »

so why not do it now? he's a gamer, he's the type that needs to learn in a game situation and this team wont go anywhere this year, whats the risk?

+1

its a no brainer for the broncos - and it will happen if they keep losing.

Chucky the tree

spiralism wrote: »

Bill Belichick, Mike Shanahan, Jon Gruden, Tony Dungy, Mike McCarthy and many others have said that they believe Tebow can be great... i'd classify them as having a zen like knowledge of the game and knowing better than any one of us here given that they combine for 8 superbowl rings between them

Honestly I take very little notice of what headcoaches say about other players. It would be a PR disaster for any heahcoach to be anything other then complimentary about Tebow.


Edit: As I said before, the HC wanting to keep his job is a pretty big reason. Not only that but if you start Tebow and basically tell your players this season is a right off after just 1 game it would be possibly the dumbest thing ever to do. Do you think guys like Champ bailey, Brian Dawkins, Brandon LLoyd etc etc want to be told the HC is basically tanking the season because they want to see what Tebow can do? Do you think the players would think Tebow was such a great leader then and be fully supportive of him?

D3PO

spiralism wrote: »

so why not do it now? ?

For exactly the same reason Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady and a whole plethora of NFL starting QB's spent time on the bench. Because they arent ready.

The NFL is a win now league you only start a rookie QB or even a second year QB if oyur really in the sh*ts and ahve no other option.

Carolina in the sh*ts , Bengals in the sh*ts thats the only reason Newton or Dalton started last week. On the job trianing isnt good for a HC's shelf life

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

so why not do it now? he's a gamer, he's the type that needs to learn in a game situation and this team wont go anywhere this year, whats the risk?

Because you basically right off your whole season after one game. But no matter what either of us think about Orton or Tebow. Fox has Orton as his starter and after 1 game no coach is going to change his starter when its clear there are more pressing matters in other positions and plenty of games to turn it around

Look simple fact us fans don't pick the teams and never will. You Bronco fans are too quick to write off Orton and use him as a scapegoat just becuase Tebow sits on the bench. This is clearly about wanting Tebow in and nothing else. Because as you said you yourself if he fails so be it you will pick up a new QB next year. Your logic is flawed.

I'm the only broncos fan that regularly posts here by the looks, yet i'm not the only one who thinks that we're going nowhere the way we're going, its proof that there's a considerable argument regarding himself and tebow and its not just a broncos thing

I never said it was exclusive to Broncos fans. I also did mention Tebow lovers and fanboys and guys who are bought in by the fact Tebow sits on the bench. But of course you are going to find non Broncos fans who dont like Orton either I never said you wouldnt.

But hey whatever happens good to see you have written off your season after 1 game :rolleyes:

Chucky the tree

Also, why is the clamour for Tebow to start when Brady Quinn is ahead of him?

Peyton Manning

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

I never said it was exclusive to Broncos fans. I also did mention Tebow lovers and fanboys.

Hey leave me out of this! :mad:

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Also, why is the clamour for Tebow to start when Brady Quinn is ahead of him?

I was actually just about to post about Quinn Chucky, was reading through the rest of the posts! Quinn looked pretty impressive in preseason and deserves a shot before Tebow who struggled in preseason and who the front office have absolutely nothing invested in. John Fox doesnt have to prove anything with Tebow so I dont see why he would risk playing him anytime soon. Keepm Orton and then if needs by give Quinn a start before Tebow

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

I was actually just about to post about Quinn Chucky, was reading through the rest of the posts! Quinn looked pretty impressive in preseason and deserves a shot before Tebow who struggled in preseason and who the front office have absolutely nothing invested in. John Fox doesnt have to prove anything with Tebow so I dont see why he would risk playing him anytime soon. Keepm Orton and then if needs by give Quinn a start before Tebow

But you see thats the problem with Broncos fans and Tebow lovers they don't see Quinn as the backup which we all know he is backup to Orton.

Edit: I bet you if Tebow wasn't there and it was just Orton, Quinn and some other regular 3rd stringer this debate wouldn't be happening in the first place.

spiralism

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Because you basically right off your whole season after one game. But no matter what either of us think about Orton or Tebow. Fox has Orton as his starter and after 1 game no coach is going to change his starter when its clear there are more pressing matters in other positions and plenty of games to turn it around

Look simple fact us fans don't pick the teams and never will. You Bronco fans are too quick to write off Orton and use him as a scapegoat just becuase Tebow sits on the bench. This is clearly about wanting Tebow in and nothing else. Because as you said you yourself if he fails so be it you will pick up a new QB next year. Your logic is flawed.



I never said it was exclusive to Broncos fans. I also did mention Tebow lovers and fanboys and guys who are bought in by the fact Tebow sits on the bench. But of course you are going to find non Broncos fans who dont like Orton either I never said you wouldnt.

But hey whatever happens good to see you have written off your season after 1 game :rolleyes:

Anyone willing to disagree with me? probably not, even a blind man could see that we are awful and will struggle to win 4 games, i don't think there's a sinner here who would disagree

obviously i'd love to be wrong but that's the way it is

frostie500

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

But you see thats the problem with Broncos fans and Tebow lovers they don't see Quinn as the backup which we all know he is backup to Orton.

Edit: I bet you if Tebow wasn't there and it was just Orton, Quinn and some other regular 3rd stringer this debate wouldn't be happening in the first place.

Dont get me wrong i think they'd be foolish to drop Orton, im just saying that Tebow has to beat out Quinn to even be second string

Chucky the tree

Lloyd seems firmly in the Orton camp.

"I think it's all B.S.," Denver Broncos wide receiver Brandon Lloyd said in a phone interview Tuesday. "I think everybody is just waiting for an opportunity to move (Orton) out and play anybody other than him."

"That's the circumstances that we're in. That's the climate that we're in, and we knew we were going to be in -- so be it. There's no being patient with Kyle. Kyle is ready to go. He didn't perform maybe as well as people expected him to. Whatever. He's our quarterback, and we're going to eventually win games," Lloyd said.

vinny chase

The biggest point about Tebow is that Elway & Fox were preparing to anoint him as the face of the franchise in the summer when the said the starting job was his to lose, and they were shopping Orton.

That Orton is back as the starter on opening day isn't because there were no takers for him, it's because Tebow struggled so badly in training camp that they knew they couldn't go into the season with him under centre. This was also the opinion of numerous scouts & analysts from NFL.com and ESPN who were watching the Bronco's training camps.

I don't think Kyle Orton is any sort of star, but given the right pieces he's fairly capable. Tebow is still a big development project. If Orton continues to struggle, Fox should hand over the offense to Quinn.

spiralism

vinny chase wrote: »

The biggest point about Tebow is that Elway & Fox were preparing to anoint him as the face of the franchise in the summer when the said the starting job was his to lose, and they were shopping Orton.

That Orton is back as the starter on opening day isn't because there were no takers for him, it's because Tebow struggled so badly in training camp that they knew they couldn't go into the season with him under centre. This was also the opinion of numerous scouts & analysts from NFL.com and ESPN who were watching the Bronco's training camps.

I don't think Kyle Orton is any sort of star, but given the right pieces he's fairly capable. Tebow is still a big development project. If Orton continues to struggle, Fox should hand over the offense to Quinn.

I'd be all for handing it to Quinn if he's got it in him to do well, thing is i dunno is he really up to much

As i posted a couple of pages back, i think it's a numbers thing that has orton under centre more than anything

LuckyLloyd

Le King wrote: »

tl;dr: Broncomaniacs have lost faith in Orton. It's Tebow time.

Who cares what the fans think? Selection policies need to be a bit more nuanced than that.

LuckyLloyd

spiralism wrote: »

As i posted a couple of pages back, i think it's a numbers thing that has orton under centre more than anything

Your ability to ignore report after report from Broncos observers indicating that Tebow was performing really poorly throughout camp is, well, I don't know...

There was no indication at any point that Tebow was anywhere near Orton in terms of ability.

vinny chase

spiralism wrote: »

I'd be all for handing it to Quinn if he's got it in him to do well, thing is i dunno is he really up to much

As i posted a couple of pages back, i think it's a numbers thing that has orton under centre more than anything

I can't see that being the case.

Fox would be furious if he thought Tebow was his best option to win in his first season and would walk if this was the option presented to him.

Similarly, I think it's vital for John Elway than he be seen to turn around the Broncos. Of all the positions on the field, he's going to want the best guy under centre, and I don't think the money comes into it.

spiralism

vinny chase wrote: »

I can't see that being the case.

Fox would be furious if he thought Tebow was his best option to win in his first season and would walk if this was the option presented to him.

Similarly, I think it's vital for John Elway than he be seen to turn around the Broncos. Of all the positions on the field, he's going to want the best guy under centre, and I don't think the money comes into it.

It's a thought though, we're paying 3 coaches and have a lot of money tied up in busts and bad free agents over the last few years, i do wonder if we're in a bad way money wise given that we pursued almost nobody in FA with the amount of holes on the team

Regarding camp, as i've already said, Tebow is the type to do far better in a game situation than in camp drills. Orton is the opposite.

He's done at Denver regardless of how good he is anyways, this underlines it

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

Regarding camp, as i've already said, Tebow is the type to do far better in a game situation than in camp drills. Orton is the opposite.

But the drills they do in camp are the basics. If he isn't that good at the basics then he has no business being in the NFL. No coach is going to trust him on the field in any capacity if he is sucking at the basics. And camp is where the players bond as a unit. Hence why players are sticking up for Orton and where Orton has done the hard work as has Quinn. You are clearly just making excuses now for Tebow.

Syferus

spiralism wrote: »

It's a thought though, we're paying 3 coaches and have a lot of money tied up in busts and bad free agents over the last few years, i do wonder if we're in a bad way money wise given that we pursued almost nobody in FA with the amount of holes on the team

Regarding camp, as i've already said, Tebow is the type to do far better in a game situation than in camp drills. Orton is the opposite.

He's done at Denver regardless of how good he is anyways, this underlines it

Denver need to jettison Orton or Tebow or else this will just continue to envelope the whole team. Brady Quinn is a good enough #2 to anyone and maybe a decent starter at this point too. It just feels like the Broncos front office want to have it both ways, but this isn't a situation that can be solved with diplomacy.

If I was the owner I'd have rode with McDaniels through the storm, at least he had an idea of what to do with Tebow and, honestly, he seems like the sort of guy who is going to be a success as a head coach.

mikemac

Trade deadline in just a few weeks, if the Broncos FO are making a move it needs to happen soon

Of course if you shop around a player it can become messy as we saw with Cutler

Broncos gave up a second, third and fourth for Tebow, what would they get now?
Not sure you'd get more then a fifth for him, it's a loss for sure

spiralism

i'd be very surprised if we cut loose on Tebow at this point or even shop him for that matter

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

i'd be very surprised if we cut loose on Tebow at this point or even shop him for that matter

Cutting him wont be an option because it will cost them a fair bit either way. As for shopping him, Id say the reason he is still there is because they found no takers.

spiralism

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Cutting him wont be an option because it will cost them a fair bit either way. As for shopping him, Id say the reason he is still there is because they found no takers.

no proof of that... yet there's definite proof that that's the case with orton

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

no proof of that... yet there's definite proof that that's the case with orton

Relax your cacks Where did I say there was proof? I said "I'd say" as in I was speculating just like you keep speculating about the future of the broncos and Tebow. As for Orton they went to trade him didnt and then liked what they saw in camp. Big difference between that situation and Tebow's now.

The simple facts here are that the Broncos had 29 days from the start of the 2011 season to trade Tebow before they had to pay him $6m odd in guaranteed money. Its obvious if any trade was to happen it had to happen before that cheque was paid. There was a lot of murmur the end of August about Tebow trades after Orton was named starter. But after paying Tebow his money their backs are now firmly against the wall as Tebow is a liability either way.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chris Burke on SI.com has this to say and in the past has knocked Orton. If you ask me he summed it up nicely.

It didn’t even take three full quarters for some Broncos fans to start chanting for Tim Tebow on Monday night. Unless they wanted Tebow to take over a spot on the offensive line, his presence probably wouldn’t have mattered much anyways.

Denver wound up on the short end of a 23-20 tally in its season-opener, a crushing defeat against AFC West rival Oakland, and from the sound of it — “Te-bow! Te-bow! Te-bow!” — the home crowd was ready to pin that loss on Kyle Orton.

No, Orton wasn’t at his best Monday, hitting just 24 of his 46 passes, throwing an interception and simply dropping the ball while he set to throw for a second turnover. But everything he did came with the Raiders’ defensive line in his face. Oakland recorded four sacks and forced Denver to commit numerous holding penalties.

Even on Denver’s final scoring drive, which pulled the Broncos within three, Orton took hit after hit but managed to get his team into the end zone.

Denver and Oakland combined for 25 penalties in a chippy, drawn-out, sloppy mess of a game. Aside from some discipline problems, it was exactly what the Raiders wanted. Their defensive line dominated Denver’s front, most of the time accomplishing that goal without bringing a blitz.

The pressure resulted in a distressed Orton and a nonexistent Denver running game — Knowshon Moreno had just eight carries for 22 yards and Orton’s 13-yard scramble was the Broncos’ longest rush of the game.

Oakland has now won eight in a row within the AFC West, dating back to a Week 15 victory at Denver in 2009. The Raiders followed that up with a 6-0 intra-division mark in 2010 and Monday’s win.

Unfortunately for the Broncos, this was supposed to be their party, a national-TV audience tuning in to see how new head coach John Fox was going to turn things around after a 4-12 season. Instead, Denver was physically manhandled by a better team.

And this quarterback issue? It’s not going away.

There were rumors once the lockout ended that Denver wanted to trade Orton, who’s in the final year of a two-year deal. The fact that the Broncos kept him and Fox committed to him as the team’s No. 1 QB meant little to a fan base that seems to adamantly believe that Tebow is their future.

That attitude will no doubt pin the goat label on Orton with Denver off to an 0-1 start.

It was pretty apparent for much of Monday, though, that the Broncos had their work cut out for them. A Jacoby Ford fumble deep in Oakland territory gift-wrapped Denver’s only three points of the first half, as the Raiders stormed out to a commanding 16-3 halftime lead.

They deserved every bit of that lead, too, and certainly earned the win. While the questions swirl in Denver, we have to consider the possibility that Oakland is a legitimate threat in the AFC West.

Quarterback Jason Campbell, a maligned figure in his own right, played a controlled game, throwing for 105 yards and accounting for a pair of touchdowns. Darren McFadden, meanwhile, knocked out 150 yards on the ground and Sebastian Janikowski nailed three field goals, including an NFL record-tying 63-yarder.

Then there’s the defense. If there is one spot where you can clearly see how much the Raiders have improved from the past couple of years, it’s up front on D. Oakland is aggressive and tough, both traits that were put on display over and over again Monday.

Orton took the brunt of that Oakland attack, and in turn, bore the weight of the Broncos fans’ angst.

But it’s hard to blame Orton for Denver’s loss when his offensive line never even gave him a chance.

frostie500

spiralism wrote: »

He's done at Denver regardless of how good he is anyways, this underlines it

I was expecting an article with either Fox, Elway or lets face it anyone remotely associated with the Broncos when I clicked on your link. I dont see how a disgruntled fan taking out a billboard means that your starting quarterback is going to be traded.

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

I was expecting an article with either Fox, Elway or lets face it anyone remotely associated with the Broncos when I clicked on your link. I dont see how a disgruntled fan taking out a billboard means that your starting quarterback is going to be traded.

Im telling you Broncos fans have become deluded thinking they can tell the organisation what to do and who to pick. :rolleyes:

Chucky the tree

Syferus wrote: »

Denver need to jettison Orton or Tebow or else this will just continue to envelope the whole team. Brady Quinn is a good enough #2 to anyone and maybe a decent starter at this point too. It just feels like the Broncos front office want to have it both ways, but this isn't a situation that can be solved with diplomacy.

If I was the owner I'd have rode with McDaniels through the storm, at least he had an idea of what to do with Tebow and, honestly, he seems like the sort of guy who is going to be a success as a head coach.

Most players would have left if they kept McDaniels on. You can't keep on a terrible head coach just on the unlikely chances he manages to develop an extremely raw QB who probably wouldn't make it anyway.


edit: Bronco fans are starting to embarass themselves with that Bill board.