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Denver Broncos Thread

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    #182
    spiralism
    Registered Users Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    Tebow will open up the run game slightly. I don't know why you think that will take pressure off your passing game.



    Ah here now you are taken the piss take off your bias blinker for a moment. Orton is not a bad leader and again your offensive coordinators chose to throw the ball on 42 occasions.

    Blaming Orton for the poor offense is nonsense at best. 300+ yards he had. What more can you ask for a guy who was under that much pressure. Brady and Rodgers and Manning would struggle under the same pressure if their run game fell asunder especially if they are asked to throw so much to try win when they are getting so much pressure.

    As I said typical Broncos fans looking for a scapegoat.

    Stat padding, meaningless yards. QBR of 72, 1 passing TD in 42 passes and 2 awful turnovers. Choking the game away on a go ahead drive didnt do us much favours. I have the funny feeling that Brady, Rodgers or Manning wouldnt do that in a similar situation. Manning has never had a very good run game, has often carried scrub wrs and has often played behind subpar olines. Rodgers got 11-5 and a wildcard defeat to arizona two years ago in GB with no oline at all and won a superbowl last year with a generally weak run game and tons of injuries, i dont buy that tbh.

    We have an unknown sitting on the bench and its highly likely this season is done for from the offset with a good QB draft to follow. We are wasting our time grafting for 5-6 wins at best with captain checkdown under centre when we can at least take a relatively low risk gamble on tebow. I mean, if it pays off, then we have a great player and if it doesnt, we don't and will get the opportunity to draft a great QB. simples.


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    #183
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    spiralism wrote: »
    Stat padding, meaningless yards. QBR of 72, 1 passing TD in 42 passes and 2 awful turnovers. Choking the game away on a go ahead drive didnt do us much favours. I have the funny feeling that Brady, Rodgers or Manning wouldnt do that in a similar situation. Manning has never had a very good run game, has often carried scrub wrs and has often played behind subpar olines. Rodgers got 11-5 and a wildcard defeat to arizona two years ago in GB with no oline at all and won a superbowl last year with a generally weak run game and tons of injuries, i dont buy that tbh.

    Ah here for fook sake you cant compare Orton to either Brady or Rodgers or Manning regardless of what WR corp they have had. Those guys are elite QBs Orton isnt and neither will Quinn or Tebow be either. If this is your defense argument to try make Orton look worse and trying to deflect away from the real issues well then you are barking up the wrong tree.

    I never said Orton was elite :rolleyes:
    We have an unknown sitting on the bench and its highly likely this season is done for from the offset with a good QB draft to follow. We are wasting our time grafting for 5-6 wins at best with captain checkdown under centre when we can at least take a relatively low risk gamble on tebow. I mean, if it pays off, then we have a great player and if it doesnt, we don't and will get the opportunity to draft a great QB. simples.

    Unknown? He has played games for the Broncos last year and shown what he can do. FFS you swear Tebow was the messiah and has never played before. But if it doesn't work will you throw him under the bus and whinge? Yes you will I guarantee it.

    Its hilarious where you argument is going to be honest. Trying to discredit Orton by comparing him to the 3 best QBs in the NFL.


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    #184
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    It might sound like a "simples" decision for you Spiral when you can just say "hey, If tebow tanks and we do horrible this season then we can jut draft a top QB next year so it's all rosey" but John Fox has his job to consider, and so do all of the Denver players. Fox will want to put out the best QB who he feels can win him the most games, and that's still clearly Orton and Fox will rightfully do that for the majority of the season.


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    #185
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,648 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    You mean its still clearly Orton in your opinion and maybe John Fox's opinion. It doesn't mean your or he is right.


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    #186
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    eagle eye wrote: »
    You mean its still clearly Orton in your opinion and maybe John Fox's opinion. It doesn't mean your or he is right.

    No because Broncos fans and Tebow fans and you are right yeah?


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    #187
    spiralism
    Registered Users Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    Ah here for fook sake you cant compare Orton to either Brady or Rodgers or Manning regardless of what WR corp they have had. Those guys are elite QBs Orton isnt and neither will Quinn or Tebow be either. If this is your defense argument to try make Orton look worse and trying to deflect away from the real issues well then you are barking up the wrong tree.

    I never said Orton was elite :rolleyes:



    Unknown? He has played games for the Broncos last year and shown what he can do. FFS you swear Tebow was the messiah and has never played before. But if it doesn't work will you throw him under the bus and whinge? Yes you will I guarantee it.

    Its hilarious where you argument is going to be honest. Trying to discredit Orton by comparing him to the 3 best QBs in the NFL.

    Well no, but they're the 3 QBs you mentioned earlier. But would you compare him to the likes of romo, eli and cutler, 3 good but not great QBs... probably not... therefore hes average. We're a bad team, we know what to expect as a result by combining a bad team with an average QB so why go with it instead of taking the leap of faith on the fella who's already proven he can win games on his own? not saying hes the next steve young or anything but he could at least run around and make a few things happen on this depressing shíte team regardless, a la vince young in his first season
    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    No because Broncos fans and Tebow fans and you are right yeah?

    well our front office, or that of many teams in the league for that matter, is far from infallible, see the 2009 nfl draft where we wasted each and every selection as example of that.

    Not saying we're certainly right, but we're not definitely wrong either


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    #188
    Le King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    So help me out you are saying Orton should be offloaded but even a fit Peyton Manning would have struggled in the same environment yesterday? How does that make any sense. Either you agree that Orton couldn't have done any better than he did yesterday due to the lack of protection or you are contradicting yourself.

    I'm talking about Orton not doing it for a while now. Obviously there is a huge reaction to the game against the Raiders.


    Also comparing the QB battle between Brady and Bledsoe v Orton and Tebow is crap. If Orton had the stats Bledsoe had we wouldn't be having this conversation. I don't remember many Pat's fans being up in arms when Brady turned around that winless streak to beat the Colts and the Jets. You can't compare the two. I remember most of the press in Boston were pro-Brady.

    So I don't see why you need to shove this pro-Orton stuff down peoples throat. You can argue all you want about Orton, but your talking shíte if you think he is the right option for Denver atm and going forward.


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    #189
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    eagle eye wrote: »
    You mean its still clearly Orton in your opinion and maybe John Fox's opinion. It doesn't mean your or he is right.



    It pretty much does to be honest. I think only Tebow and his parents would claim he was the best QB to be starting for the Broncos if they want to win games.


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    #190
    Le King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    It pretty much does to be honest. I think only Tebow and his parents would claim he was the best QB to be starting for the Broncos if they want to win games.

    Wouldn't change the fact that Orton clearly isn't the answer either.


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    #191
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    spiralism wrote: »
    Well no, but they're the 3 QBs you mentioned earlier.

    Yes but I said they would struggle not fail.
    But would you compare him to the likes of romo, eli and cutler, 3 good but not great QBs... probably not... therefore hes average.

    Oh so wait every QB under these guys are average? No I dont think so there is another level of guys who are good and these are guys who can perform when the full package is there. Orton, Cassel and Fitzpatrick to name 3. I would then have the average class and then the pure muck class.
    We're a bad team, we know what to expect as a result by combining a bad team with an average QB so why go with it instead of taking the leap of faith on the fella who's already proven he can win games on his own? not saying hes the next steve young or anything but he could at least run around and make a few things happen on this depressing shíte team regardless, a la vince young in his first season

    Oh so now you saying the Broncos are a bad team? Changing your tune much? And now its because he is an average QB in your eyes and thats why he isnt working out. So its no longer his fault then for the losses but the fact he is an average player on a bad team and because of the bad team he will never do anything?

    Oh ok so its ok to create scapegoats when the guy is average and the team are sh1t? Got to blame someone right?


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    #192
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Le King wrote: »
    Wouldn't change the fact that Orton clearly isn't the answer either.


    He's the best answer they have at the moment though.


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    #193
    Le King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Le King wrote: »
    Wouldn't change the fact that Orton clearly isn't the answer either.


    He's the best answer they have at the moment though.

    Maybe, I don't know. But Fox ain't going to have many friends keeping him there when so many Bronco fans want Tebow in there.


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    #194
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    Le King wrote: »
    I'm talking about Orton not doing it for a while now. Obviously there is a huge reaction to the game against the Raiders.


    Also comparing the QB battle between Brady and Bledsoe v Orton and Tebow is crap. If Orton had the stats Bledsoe had we wouldn't be having this conversation. I don't remember many Pat's fans being up in arms when Brady turned around that winless streak to beat the Colts and the Jets. You can't compare the two. I remember most of the press in Boston were pro-Brady.

    So I don't see why you need to shove this pro-Orton stuff down peoples throat. You can argue all you want about Orton, but your talking shíte if you think he is the right option for Denver atm and going forward.

    You completely missed my point about the Bledsoe/Brady thing. It had nothing to do with performance but to do with Fan reaction after it. In fact when Bledsoe was passed fit many Pats fans called for his return so he could finish out the season even though Brady was doing a good job. I was poking at EE because of the knee jerk reactions of us Pats fans thinking we knew best and who should start. Fans aren't always right.


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    #195
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Le King wrote: »
    Maybe, I don't know. But Fox ain't going to have many friends keeping him there when so many Bronco fans want Tebow in there.


    It's not up to the bronco fans to decide if he keeps his job or not. Like with nearly all NFL HC jobs it comes down to wins and very little to do with fans opinion.


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    #196
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    Le King wrote: »

    So I don't see why you need to shove this pro-Orton stuff down peoples throat. You can argue all you want about Orton, but your talking shíte if you think he is the right option for Denver atm and going forward.

    Same could be said for you and spiral being anti Orton. And Im talking sh!te am I? :rolleyes: Someone doesn't go with the grain and challenges Broncos fans they have to retort to calling people's opinions sh1te? Good man


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    #197
    Le King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    You completely missed my point about the Bledsoe/Brady thing. It had nothing to do with performance but to do with Fan reaction after it. In fact when Bledsoe was passed fit many Pats fans called for his return so he could finish out the season even though Brady was doing a good job. I was poking at EE because of the knee jerk reactions of us Pats fans thinking we knew best and who should start. Fans aren't always right.

    Yeah, correct. I also know a few Denver fans who don't want Tebow either. I don't think Tebow is a great QB at all. In fact, he'd be eaten up IMO. But Orton isn't a good QB either. But if the team continues to fail it won't harm trying him out. Denver are a long way off being a respectable team atm.


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    #198
    Le King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    It's not up to the bronco fans to decide if he keeps his job or not. Like with nearly all NFL HC jobs it comes down to wins and very little to do with fans opinion.

    But this team looks like winning nothing anyway. Eventually Fox will give in if this continues.
    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    Same could be said for you and spiral being anti Orton. And Im talking sh!te am I? :rolleyes: Someone doesn't go with the grain and challenges Broncos fans they have to retort to calling people's opinions sh1te? Good man

    I'm not just anti-Orton, I'm anti-Tebow too. I'm not a Bronco's fan, I'm a Giants fans. Don't take it too personally. I agree with a lot of your content. Just not on Orton :)


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    #199
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    This thread is realy busy in the early hours :)

    Don't think I've posted on this since July, anyway

    Broncos look to me much the same as last season

    The offensive line is poor and while Clady did a solid job, the interior got mauled last night. Well when you are up against Richard Seymour and Tommy Kelly, it's not suprising.
    Seymour doesn't have flashy stats but he's one of the top at his position in the league, so underrated by many.

    And the OL struggles affect the run game. Terrible running game last night and on a rainy night that's what you should be doing. McGahee and Moreno are fine players but it's not clicking yet

    I've confidence John Fox is the man to sort this and sort the defense but it's takes time especially after the state that team was left in by the last head coach.

    So Orton just like last season puts up big passing yards but that's down to chasing the game and a lot comes in garbage time.

    Fans see Tebow for at most sixty minutes a week, the coaches see the players six to seven days a week.

    Right now Orton is the starter and the best player to bring about wins.
    The priority is the running game and defence, plugging in Tebow isn't going to turn around the team. Pump up the teammates and franchise maybe but he's still not an NFL QB, if he ever will be


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    #200
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,648 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    He's the best answer they have at the moment though.
    The statement of fact sense that I get from your posts is just so annoying. Especially coming from somebody that has been so wrong in the past.


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    #201
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,648 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    No because Broncos fans and Tebow fans and you are right yeah?
    I didn't say that. I personally believe he will make it as a QB in the NFL for reasons I've stated many times. I've never claimed to be the football guru who knows all though. I have my belief on the matter but its my opinion, the statement of fact attitude of some posters on here is just annoying. And some of them probably never had a football in their hands and probably were never at a real game.


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    #202
    Johnny_Fontane
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Johnny_Fontane


    eagle eye wrote: »
    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    No because Broncos fans and Tebow fans and you are right yeah?
    I didn't say that. I personally believe he will make it as a QB in the NFL for reasons I've stated many times. I've never claimed to be the football guru who knows all though. I have my belief on the matter but its my opinion, the statement of fact attitude of some posters on here is just annoying. And some of them probably never had a football in their hands and probably were never at a real game.

    Ortons record though is so poor.....3-14 in last two seasons that they need to do something.


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    #203
    SantryRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭SantryRed


    Johnny_Fontane wrote: »
    Ortons record though is so poor.....3-14 in last two seasons that they need to do something.

    :confused:

    Hardly means it's his fault though?


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    #204
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    Johnny_Fontane wrote: »
    Ortons record though is so poor.....3-14 in last two seasons that they need to do something.

    Yeah because QBs are the reason why teams lose all the time. Never mind the shocking o-line or the receivers that drop footballs or the running backs who couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag and a defense that get bitch slapped all day.


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    #205
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    eagle eye wrote: »
    The statement of fact sense that I get from your posts is just so annoying. Especially coming from somebody that has been so wrong in the past.


    Only a blind person would rate Tebow ahead of Orton. Maybe someday I'll reach your zen like knowledge on the game. :pac:


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    #206
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    Totally agree with Tallaght here.

    The Broncos lost because of a piss poor o line, terrible play calling and an anemic backfield.

    Orton is by far and away the best QB on the Denver roster right now. I would rate Tebow ahead of Brady Quinn but hes not an NFL starting QB right now.

    The NFL is a win now league. Fox would be off his trolley to start anybody bar Orton at the moment.


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    #207
    SantryRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭SantryRed


    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=QB&conference=NFL&year=season_2010&timeframe=All&qualified=1&sort=49&old_category=QB

    QB stats from last year for all NFL QBs.


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    #208
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,648 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Only a blind person would rate Tebow ahead of Orton. Maybe someday I'll reach your zen like knowledge on the game. :pac:
    Well going by what I seen of him last year I think he makes it. Going by stats of which there aren't many but his DVOA on FO was worse than only 9 other QBs in the league. While he didn't play enough to be included in the main rankings it was still impressive. Orton's DVOA was 17th best of those with a lot of passes.


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    #209
    spiralism
    Registered Users Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    Le King wrote: »
    Yeah, correct. I also know a few Denver fans who don't want Tebow either. I don't think Tebow is a great QB at all. In fact, he'd be eaten up IMO. But Orton isn't a good QB either. But if the team continues to fail it won't harm trying him out. Denver are a long way off being a respectable team atm.

    exactly. what have we to lose? people can keep defending orton all they want but the fact remains that he's nothing more than a game manager on a shíte team and we have a QB that is at least capable of being something special. Whether he will be or not is another thing entirely, so why not found out? It's not only broncos fans who see the fault with orton either, look at this for example, its from a nfl betting site:
    I really don't understand it. Kyle Orton is incredibly overrated because so many people love to say he's underrated. He's not accurate; he doesn't have a good arm; and he spontaneously combusts in the red zone and on third down. He's a solid game-manager, but that's it. He's not a tenth of the quarterback Tim Tebow is capable of becoming. He's actually the opposite; he shines in practice and isn't nearly as good in games, whereas Tebow struggles in practice, but knows how to pull off victories when it counts. Unless the Broncos' grand-master plan is to "Suck for Luck," they are being incredibly stupid.

    I'm the only broncos fan that regularly posts here by the looks, yet i'm not the only one who thinks that we're going nowhere the way we're going, its proof that there's a considerable argument regarding himself and tebow and its not just a broncos thing

    we should give Tebow a chance, even if it's like what Vic Lombardi suggests and play orton in between the 20s while using Tebow on wildcard packages in the redzone or some third downs like we did last year at times


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    #210
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Well going by what I seen of him last year I think he makes it. Going by stats of which there aren't many but his DVOA on FO was worse than only 9 other QBs in the league. While he didn't play enough to be included in the main rankings it was still impressive. Orton's DVOA was 17th best of those with a lot of passes.


    As I said, when I reach your zen like knowledge of the game I will finally know better and realise Tebow is a stud QB. Maybe I just need to touch an NFL ball and then all the knowledge will just instantly transfuse into me. :pac:


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    #211
    spiralism
    Registered Users Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    As I said, when I reach your zen like knowledge of the game I will finally know better and realise Tebow is a stud QB. Maybe I just need to touch an NFL ball and then all the knowledge will just instantly transfuse into me. :pac:

    Bill Belichick, Mike Shanahan, Jon Gruden, Tony Dungy, Mike McCarthy and many others have said that they believe Tebow can be great... i'd classify them as having a zen like knowledge of the game and knowing better than any one of us here given that they combine for 8 superbowl rings between them


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