Denver Broncos Thread

D3PO

spiralism wrote: »

fair enough so, sure il stick around

reverting to topic:

Denver
Defensive stats:
Points per game: 20.7 (13th)
Passing yards per game: 234.7 (13th)
Rushing yards per game: 100 (14th) (notably it's only even that low because Run DMC torched us and he could be the leagues best RB right now. Benson and CJ were shut down)
Total yards per game: 334.7 (16th)

Offensive stats
Points per game: 19.3 (23rd)
Yards per game: 286.3 (27th)
Passing yards per game: 210.3 (22nd)
Rushing yards per game: 76 (27th)

The offence is definitely the problem, its near the bottom in every category. The defence on the other hand is average, if not even slightly above average.

on a related note, von miller is ****ing class

Yes the offense is the problem but that doesnt mean Orton is the problem.

1) Denver cannot run the football consistently. Becasue A) the O Line is crap and b) the running backs are crap. If you cant run its easy for the defense to put 7 hell maybe even only 6 in the box and provide additional coverage for the pass. This therefore impacts the passing game negatively

2) Denvers recieving corps has been banged up. No rush and a banged up recieving corps. Of course the offense is crap.

3) Did I mention the Denver O Line sucks badly.

mikemac

Rushing yards per game: 76 (27th)

That's very poor

A quick google shows 26th in rushing last year also

John Fox is the man to get this improved but first you need a better Oline, in particular your interior Oline

But hey, it's easier to lay it all on the QB
QB gets all the glory and all the blame for some fans

neilster

D3PO wrote: »

Yes the offense is the problem but that doesnt mean Orton is the problem.

1) Denver cannot run the football consistently. Becasue A) the O Line is crap and b) the running backs are crap. If you cant run its easy for the defense to put 7 hell maybe even only 6 in the box and provide additional coverage for the pass. This therefore impacts the passing game negatively

2) Denvers recieving corps has been banged up. No rush and a banged up recieving corps. Of course the offense is crap.

3) Did I mention the Denver O Line sucks badly.

Lets start with the non-Orton offence

1)Orlando Franklin was drafted to protect Tebows blind side. This should have gone on an interior lineman or a cornerback , this is directly affecting the running game and after Orton going 9 of 10 passes over 5 minutes with four different 3rd down conversations , McGahee is stuffed at the line . This was clutch play from Orton which wasnt rewarded

Oakland who were underestimated in general in my opinion by Broncos fans showed what good interior line play can do against the Jets on the same day (now we know why Robert Gallery was allowed walk)

2) The reciever corps with Thomas, Royal banged up is very thin right now at the position and it is showing in seperation and the whole situation allied to the lack of a running game is baiting Orton into taking chances as field goals wont really win games

3) with 2 new safeties in Moore and Carter and an ageing Dawkins , they are a little green at safety.

With Perrish Cox banished and Champ Bailey injured the corner position is weakened . Andre Goodman played ok buy SydQuan Thompson is also gone for the season . This has resulted in no interceptions and is the biggest reason for Hasselbacks 300 yrds and completions to 5 recievers.

These are far larger factors than Orton ...some of ye Broncos fans see Brandon Lloyds comments on wanting Orton around ...the guy can play just too many other things affecting it

spiralism

i would certainly agree that there are a lot more issues with the offence than orton.... but with the QB the centrepiece of any offence, he's going to get stick if the offence is crap. which brings it back to the argument that tebow running around and making things happen would certainly improve the offence, and would add leadership to boot.

even if we stick with orton, we'd be mad not to design a package for tebow in certain situations, it was incredibly effective last year. especially in red zone situations, in week 1 and 3 we gained possession on the oakland and tennessee 15 respectively and amassed a cumulative 3 points.
last year we utilised a package in the jets and kansas games with tebow in the redzone, it was 100% effective( we used it 5 or 6 times, not the biggest sample size obviously but still) when used because tebow's scrambling and passing ability became incredibly difficult to handle inside the redzone. given our redzone woes, its surprising we're not using it, it also had the added effect of giving the fans what they wanted and orton not shítting himself in those matches due to the pressure as a result

neilster

spiralism wrote: »

i would certainly agree that there are a lot more issues with the offence than orton.... but with the QB the centrepiece of any offence, he's going to get stick if the offence is crap. which brings it back to the argument that tebow running around and making things happen would certainly improve the offence, and would add leadership to boot.

even if we stick with orton, we'd be mad not to design a package for tebow in certain situations, it was incredibly effective last year. especially in red zone situations, in week 1 and 3 we gained possession on the oakland and tennessee 15 respectively and amassed a cumulative 3 points.
last year we utilised a package in the jets and kansas games with tebow in the redzone, it was 100% effective( we used it 5 or 6 times, not the biggest sample size obviously but still) when used because tebow's scrambling and passing ability became incredibly difficult to handle inside the redzone. given our redzone woes, its surprising we're not using it, it also had the added effect of giving the fans what they wanted and orton not shítting himself in those matches due to the pressure as a result

I take the point about Tebow in goal-line situations and it is a prescient point , he is lethal in that situation much like Big Ben versus anyone else in that situation only Tebow has lots of the facets on a bruising Running Back in a TightEnds body . Tebow in the McGahee situation would have been an effective decoy , or done the run himself or made the defence think about defending him whilst it makes McGahees job easier

I take some points that Bronco fans make about the final drive and the fumbled ball but it was on a 3rd and 11 where the vanishing running game was putting Orton in 3rd and 11 situations. The Decker intercept was a similar situations , team situations making Orton have to reach too much

On the drive where McGahee was stuffed on the goal-line , Orton was clutch , that was 21-10 if they make it ...game over ...on the drafting issue the Raiders were in a similar position with their O Line as Denver only they had no 1st round pick ..they picked Stefan Wisniewski at the 38th pick their now starting Left Guard at a position of need already blocking for Darren McFadden with some success . They used their pick better

Remember Joe Flacco had a number of picks last week and Brady had 4 this week , it can happen ...Orton is like a lightning rod for all Denvers' problems and thankfully if John Fox's history is anything to go by , he will stand by his man

spiralism

neilster wrote: »

I take the point about Tebow in goal-line situations and it is a prescient point , he is lethal in that situation much like Big Ben versus anyone else in that situation only Tebow has lots of the facets on a bruising Running Back in a TightEnds body . Tebow in the McGahee situation would have been an effective decoy , or done the run himself or made the defence think about defending him whilst it makes McGahees job easier

I take some points that Bronco fans make about the final drive and the fumbled ball but it was on a 3rd and 11 where the vanishing running game was putting Orton in 3rd and 11 situations. The Decker intercept was a similar situations , team situations making Orton have to reach too much

On the drive where McGahee was stuffed on the goal-line , Orton was clutch , that was 21-10 if they make it ...game over ...on the drafting issue the Raiders were in a similar position with their O Line as Denver only they had no 1st round pick ..they picked Stefan Wisniewski at the 38th pick their now starting Left Guard at a position of need already blocking for Darren McFadden with some success . They used their pick better

Remember Joe Flacco had a number of picks last week and Brady had 4 this week , it can happen ...Orton is like a lightning rod for all Denvers' problems and thankfully if John Fox's history is anything to go by , he will stand by his man

If we put tebow on in redzone situations, this offence will improve noticeably, agreed, its not making much sense having him do nothing at all, even elway supposedly was talking about a package for tebow in goal line situations, the implication being that he believes it should be used.

Some very interesting questions and answers regarding the team here, actually

spiralism

Time to stoke some more debate i think :pac:

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_19000690

To disagree deferentially with the Johns, Fox and Elway, right now, in my opinion, Kyle Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to lose.
Orton plays just well enough to get you beaten.
The quarterback's record in his past 18 starts is 4-14. If the Broncos had scored one more touchdown in six defeats, the record would have been 10-8 or 9-9 (they fell at Jacksonville by seven). The Broncos were blown out in eight other games.
From the seventh game of 2009 until the game at Tennessee on Sunday, with Orton as the starting quarterback, the Broncos trailed by three or more points at halftime 17 times.
They lost all 17.
During that span, they won only once after trailing by a field goal or more at halftime.
The Broncos rallied from a 17-0 deficit at intermission to beat the Texans 24-23. Tim Tebow was the quarterback.
No current starting quarterback in the NFL has more regular-season defeats than Orton from 2009-11. Does the name Matt Cassel clang any chimes? Cassel and Orton have 19 apiece. However, Cassel was the starting quarterback when the Chiefs won the AFC West last season. He lost his 20th game in the playoffs.
In Orton's debut for the Broncos in Cincinnati, he used "poor judgment," according to The Associated Press report, by being sacked to push the Broncos out of field-goal range when they were ahead 6-0 late. The Bengals scored with 36 seconds left. Orton's Hail Mary pass was tipped by the Bengals, and Brandon Stokley grabbed the ball for what turned out to be an 87-yard touchdown play.
Orton's first victory was followed by five more in a row, including the 34-23, come-from-behind triumph at San Diego. The Broncos were down 20-17 at the half.
Orton made many people believe.
Since then, the Broncos, when Orton is at quarterback, haven't overcome any more three-point-or-higher halftime deficits.
They've rarely won at all.
Two seasons ago Orton was out with an ankle injury
for the second half of the game in Washington and the first half of the rematch with the Chargers. The Broncos lost both. In his final seven starts the Broncos won two.
Orton was on an NFL record-setting pace for passing yardage early last season. Many people believed in Orton, and had forgotten Jay whathisname.
However, in 13 starts, Orton won three times. He was replaced as the starting quarterback because of bruised ribs and continuing ineffectiveness (a 43-13 defeat at Arizona in the first game after the coach's firing, and eight losses in nine games), and because many other people wanted to see Tebow.
This year, many people believed in Orton, saying he doesn't throw many interceptions or make many mistakes. Yet, history shows that in pressurized situations and close games, Orton does throw interceptions and makes mistakes.
In three games, Orton has thrown five touchdown passes, but the Broncos have lost two games by a total of six points — and won one by two.
Orton has thrown three interceptions and fumbled twice. Four of the five turnovers (in the defeats) occurred on the opponents' side of the 50 when the Broncos had an opportunity for field goals, touchdowns and possible victories. The other was a fumble on his 13, and the Bengals kicked a field goal.
The many believers have blamed the Broncos' defense, the offensive line and the running game. Yes, but the defense is improved from 32nd to 16th; Willis McGahee is an upgrade over Knowshon Moreno (except near the goal line Sunday), and a static, stationary quarterback who panics doesn't bail out a weak offensive line.
During preseason, when I asked Fox about the Broncos' quarterback competition, he said: "I prefer a 'gamer' to a good practice player . . . I want someone who will execute under pressure in a game."
Orton is a good practice player.
He is not a gamer. His overall record as the Broncos' starter is 12-19. The team has won four of Orton's last 20 — a winning percent of 20. He is 0.00 percent when the team trails by three or more at halftime.
"Right now, in our opinion, Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win," Fox reiterated this week.
The Orton Ordeal will continue in Green Bay.

mikemac

For what it's worth I used to think Tom Brandstater looked pretty decent.
Has bounced around different teams but he's still in the league, could be a good number two some day

Waaaaay offtopic

spiralism

mikemac wrote: »

For what it's worth I used to think Tom Brandstater looked pretty decent.
Has bounced around different teams but he's still in the league, could be a good number two some day

Waaaaay offtopic

yeah i thought he looked pretty good backup material when we had him, mcdaniels obviously likes him, he's on the st.louis practice squad now

spiralism

If ever there was a time to bump this...Tebow has to be the man in denver now surely

spiralism

mikemac wrote: »

Bye next, is that right?

That's right, the only way we could have timed this any better was if Tebow came in a quarter earlier or started today lol

Morrisseeee

Just watched the highlights there and it was an exciting finish, Tebow came in and turned the game on its head, catch of the day to Floyd aswell, if he's not a starting QB then he's an unbelievable offensive weapon, I wonder is they could work on some kind of system that would incorporate both QBs and keep the defences guessing ?! At the moment it seems like they're playing against each other and the team is suffering. Orton was terrible last night and his starting record is brutal now, caution has to be thrown to the wind now and something drastic has to be done. The commentators were brilliant when after Tebow's touchdown the camera panned over to Orton & he was clapping but they called it by saying: "...you're clapping but you don't want to be clapping"

Chucky the tree

Tebow will start. But it should be Brady Quinn if they want to win games.

D3PO

didnt see the game but it does look like Tebow gave Denver some impetous when he came on. Going to reserve judgement for the moment though.

spiralism

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Tebow will start. But it should be Brady Quinn if they want to win games.

Maybe, quinn is a better passer probably but we may as well blood tebow in now at this stage, you have to admit that he made a huge difference yesterday, the players played better and there was actually a bit of passion to our play, something i hadnt seen since he last started. The first half, our play was not only ****e but downright depressing, no energy or enthusiasm, we just looked dead out there. The difference between us before and after he went in was night and day.

first game after the bye is @ Miami, they're not great and if ever there was a road game to get him going it would be in Florida.

Chucky the tree

spiralism wrote: »

Maybe, quinn is a better passer probably but we may as well blood tebow in now at this stage, you have to admit that he made a huge difference yesterday, the players played better and there was actually a bit of passion to our play, something i hadnt seen since he last started. The first half, our play was not only ****e but downright depressing, no energy or enthusiasm, we just looked dead out there. The difference between us before and after he went in was night and day.

first game after the bye is @ Miami, they're not great and if ever there was a road game to get him going it would be in Florida.

I didn't see all of the first half but I'm not sure there was a huge difference really. The turnover from the defense was huge but the D had been playing very well for the whole game from what I say. Once they got scores on the board the fans got into it and then Tebow did well in the redzone but the problem is his passing was terrible. Like Orton he's great a padding his stats when defences are happy to give him short to medium yard completions.

mikemac

Miami are shocking at home

If John Fox can't get a win on the road there, he won't get one anywhere

Tebow and McGahee going home I suppose, there are probably a few others too

spiralism

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I didn't see all of the first half but I'm not sure there was a huge difference really. The turnover from the defense was huge but the D had been playing very well for the whole game from what I say. Once they got scores on the board the fans got into it and then Tebow did well in the redzone but the problem is his passing was terrible. Like Orton he's great a padding his stats when defences are happy to give him short to medium yard completions.

the first half was abysmal, the defence spent 20 mins of the 30 on the field id say, the only offence we had whatsoever was mcgahee, ortons pick was woeful and we just looked completely dead. To be fair, Tebow was the victim of about 5 drops in the passing game as well, he missed on two huge completions thanks to lloyd getting a foot out of bounds and decker dropping what was admittedly a tough catch, though he was wide open and would certainly have scored had he maintained.

Chucky the tree

spiralism wrote: »

the first half was abysmal, the defence spent 20 mins of the 30 on the field id say, the only offence we had whatsoever was mcgahee, ortons pick was woeful and we just looked completely dead. To be fair, Tebow was the victim of about 5 drops in the passing game as well, he missed on two huge completions thanks to lloyd getting a foot out of bounds and decker dropping what was admittedly a tough catch, though he was wide open and would certainly have scored had he maintained.

Most of those drops were due to terribly inaccurate throws. Deckers wouldn't have scored if he made it as he had to lay out just to get his hands on the ball. He had one throw out wide to TE Rosairo that was underthrown and was very difficult catch for him to make. Another pass at 11:42 in the 4th on 3rd down was again straight into the ground. His TD was off a screen pass, it's a throw any QB in the nfl will make. His completions downfield was one circus catch from Lloyd and then he made pass to wide open Fells which the Chargers were happy enough to give up. As I said, Tebow is great at padding numbers when the game is over and his team is behind.

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Tebow will start. But it should be Brady Quinn if they want to win games.

I'm a big Irish fan and a big Brady Quinn fan obviously but tbh he has been awful in the NFL. How on earth you can back him is beyond me.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm a big Irish fan and a big Brady Quinn fan obviously but tbh he has been awful in the NFL. How on earth you can back him is beyond me.

To be fair he was with the Browns and an awful Browns at that. And Quinns workout in the off season impressed many this season. He even impressed guys that had already written him off.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm a big Irish fan and a big Brady Quinn fan obviously but tbh he has been awful in the NFL. How on earth you can back him is beyond me.

Because he has been less awful than Tebow and actually looked like an nfl QB in pre-season. The won't ever be a #1 QB but he can at least throw the ball accurately which is a step up from Tebow.

vetinari

I have to say wow.

I'm a patriots fan so not really fussed what the Broncos do. They're bolloxed either way.
But some of the criticism of Tebow...

Some posters seem emotionally invested in having him fail.
he came in at half time when they were losing. He wasn't spectacular but he seemed to
be more effective than Orton. Also he didn't turn over the ball and made a few plays.
For any relieving quarterback, that's a good outing.

The Chargers were playing a prevent defense on the last drive. But as one poster alluded to, it was certainly not part of the plan for Tebow to get that second 30 yard completion. There was only 30 seconds left, the Broncos got in position to make a half decent hail mary pass. Prevent defense is about limiting the offence to 15 yard passes not 30 yard chunks.

tallaghtoutlaws

vetinari wrote: »

Some posters seem emotionally invested in having him fail.

Never understood why people think emotion plays a part in every debate on the internet.

As one of those people I would hardly call it emotionally invested. In fact there is no emotion at all to any of my criticisms of Tebow. Don't need emotions to say he is not a NFL QB right now ability wise. For me it is that simple and that is emotion free.

Since you are bringing emotions in to it isn't it fair to say then that you could easily flip that coin and say anyone defending him are also emotionally invested in it? But not every debate on the internet contains emotions. Never understood why people bring emotions into everything on forums.

At the end of it if he fails he fails. If he makes it he makes it. I think the Broncos are now the wrong team for Tebow and he would have been better off being picked lower in the draft and by a team that would work with him. Denver has become a mess because of how high they grabbed him.

spiralism

vetinari wrote: »

I have to say wow.

I'm a patriots fan so not really fussed what the Broncos do. They're bolloxed either way.
But some of the criticism of Tebow...

Some posters seem emotionally invested in having him fail.
he came in at half time when they were losing. He wasn't spectacular but he seemed to
be more effective than Orton. Also he didn't turn over the ball and made a few plays.
For any relieving quarterback, that's a good outing.

The Chargers were playing a prevent defense on the last drive. But as one poster alluded to, it was certainly not part of the plan for Tebow to get that second 30 yard completion. There was only 30 seconds left, the Broncos got in position to make a half decent hail mary pass. Prevent defense is about limiting the offence to 15 yard passes not 30 yard chunks.

exactly, a 30 yard hail mary is far more manageable than a 60 yard one.

For all of the drops and inaccurate throws, he put fire back into a lifeless team and nearly turned over a 16 point deficit in 5 minutes. If he develops anything of a decent pass at all which with significant game time i have no doubt whatsoever that he will develop, watch out. one thing i liked as well was that at least the incompletions went to where only the receiver could make the catch, hes been taught well there. There's real potential in the kid, and there is no practice like game time

orton in the first half made several boneheaded throws including the INT, the chargers defence dropped two of them

Chucky the tree

vetinari wrote: »

I have to say wow.

I'm a patriots fan so not really fussed what the Broncos do. They're bolloxed either way.
But some of the criticism of Tebow...

Some posters seem emotionally invested in having him fail.
he came in at half time when they were losing. He wasn't spectacular but he seemed to
be more effective than Orton. Also he didn't turn over the ball and made a few plays.
For any relieving quarterback, that's a good outing.

The Chargers were playing a prevent defense on the last drive. But as one poster alluded to, it was certainly not part of the plan for Tebow to get that second 30 yard completion. There was only 30 seconds left, the Broncos got in position to make a half decent hail mary pass. Prevent defense is about limiting the offence to 15 yard passes not 30 yard chunks.

Before the snap Chargers had 3 players who were standing at least 20 yards down the field. There were 3 players at least 10 yards behind Fells when he caught the ball. Obviously the main objectivity was to stop a touchdown or a deep pass inside the 15.

Syferus

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Never understood why people think emotion plays a part in every debate on the internet.

As one of those people I would hardly call it emotionally invested. In fact there is no emotion at all to any of my criticisms of Tebow. Don't need emotions to say he is not a NFL QB right now ability wise. For me it is that simple and that is emotion free.

Since you are bringing emotions in to it isn't it fair to say then that you could easily flip that coin and say anyone defending him are also emotionally invested in it? But not every debate on the internet contains emotions. Never understood why people bring emotions into everything on forums.

At the end of it if he fails he fails. If he makes it he makes it. I think the Broncos are now the wrong team for Tebow and he would have been better off being picked lower in the draft and by a team that would work with him. Denver has become a mess because of how high they grabbed him.

Because it invariably is, whether someone thinks that's the case or not.

Sure, it can be far more overt in certain people, and in certain situations, but even the person trying to make a judgement or opinion on something is still doing it through the prism of being a human and none of us are Spock. It's all to degrees but to try and make out that it's not almost always there is plain wrong.

Eire-Dearg

He's gonna start after the bye week, according to the Twitter people.

TaosHum

mikemac wrote: »

Miami are shocking at home

If John Fox can't get a win on the road there, he won't get one anywhere

Tebow and McGahee going home I suppose, there are probably a few others too

Couple that with Miami coming off a short week (playing Monday night vs the Jets), Chad Henne out for the season and plus Tebow is getting ****ing honoured for his achievements at Florida at that game.

Peyton Manning

TaosHum wrote: »

Couple that with Miami coming off a short week (playing Monday night vs the Jets), Chad Henne out for the season and plus Tebow is getting ****ing honoured for his achievements at Florida at that game.

I remember reading about that, The U are very unhappy that a rival Gators legend is getting honoured at the stadium The U play at. This has worked out conveniently well for Tebow, seems to me like he's getting some help from his ol' pal Jesus.