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New Household Tax - Boycott

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    #182
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    !3theraven wrote: »
    exactly my point, if they are given the power to sell someones home,that person is no longer the rightful owner of that home, if the goverment are given that power,by the way how can someone have debt when they never signed any contract? with regards to this property tax, Im refering to contract law.
    I don't have to sign any contracts to incur debt. Don't know where you get that from tbh. If I eat a mars bar in a shop I am endebted a euro to the shop owner-never signed a contract though.


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    #183
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    murphaph wrote: »
    !3theraven wrote: »
    exactly my point, if they are given the power to sell someones home,that person is no longer the rightful owner of that home, if the goverment are given that power,by the way how can someone have debt when they never signed any contract? with regards to this property tax, Im refering to contract law.
    I don't have to sign any contracts to incur debt. Don't know where you get that from tbh. If I eat a mars bar in a shop I am endebted a euro to the shop owner-never signed a contract though.
    If someone else eats the mars bar and walks out the door with a sack of chocolate how would you feel if the debt fell on you


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    #184
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    murphaph wrote: »
    I think you'll find they actually do.

    A property tax does not mean you are now some sort of tenant. You cannot be evicted for failure to pay it. You can be prosecuted for failure to pay and a court could theoretically order that the debt be repaid through the forced sale of your home, but this theoretically applies to ANY debt.

    What it does is impose a lien on the property, you can't sell or presumably remortgage the property unless the tax is paid. Of course there was a time when they couldn't seize your car for non payment of tax either, these things can change.
    I'm deeply disappointed at the role of the Labour party in this Government, they have become the new Greens and presumably will suffer the same fate. Joan Burton was the vociferous champion of the homeowner when it came to the iniquitous management companies, she's not doing much shouting now and we still have the management companies.


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    #185
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    If someone else eats the mars bar and walks out the door with a sack of chocolate how would you feel if the debt fell on you
    Obviously not very good.

    I don't know what point you're trying to make tbh.

    I am not in favour of increasing the amount of tax paid overall, just in favour of altering where those taxes are raised from. Hey, I'm a non-resident landlord guys. I pay income taxes in Germany and property and rent related income taxes in Ireland. These taxes will hit me harder than most but I know that we should not be taxing the balls off income as it's a disincentive to work.

    I believe that the highest priority should not be figuring out new taxes however, rather finding ways to reduce current spending, then we should turn our attention to developing a stable tax base for the future of our country. A stable tax base includes property taxation and excludes windfall VAT and stamp duty receipts and the income taxes of overpaid block-layers and labourers.

    That's all I'm saying.


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    #186
    !3theraven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭!3theraven


    murphaph wrote: »
    I don't have to sign any contracts to incur debt. Don't know where you get that from tbh. If I eat a mars bar in a shop I am endebted a euro to the shop owner-never signed a contract though.

    If you eat a mars bar in a shop you owe a euro,because the mars bar is the shopkeepers property until a custumer buys it, whe people bought their homes they already paid a property tax in the form of stamp duty, that would of being part of the original contract, what was not part of the original contract when most people bought their homes, was yearly property taxes and the fact these taxes can Increase every year, so no contract, no payment, the idea of property tax with they can resell your home to collect debt you don,t owe, is akin to a protection money racket, if I was a shopkeeper and someone one day came into the shop demanded a monthly or yearly sum of money (without a contract) and said if you pay everything be ok for you, if not we will torch the place. same analogy with a property tax.


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    #187
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    !3theraven wrote: »
    by the way how can someone have debt when they never signed any contract?

    By act of the Oireachtas. Here for instance is a quotation concerning the property tax the Oireachtas has already introduced:
    The NPPR Charge

    The Local Government (Charges) Act 2009 introduces a €200 annual charge on non principal private residences, payable by the owners to the local authority in whose area the property concerned is located.

    It is akin to arguing that you don't owe income tax because you never signed a contract to pay it.


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    #188
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    bkeano wrote: »
    Hi all Boardies

    Can we all please make a stance here and get our non boardies to do the same. Enough is Enough We should not pay this new household Tax. Its the same as the Poll tax in the UK. I am an normal Joe Soap with 2 kids. I cant pay any more Taxes. I can afford it as it is. I am lucky to have my Job.

    We need to mount a serious objection here and nationwide.

    thanks
    Brian

    I wouldn't even be against an emergency (temporary) poll tax that a defined end, and could not be hiked up, that was not means tested, and was reasonable. As it stands it looks like it is going to be a permanent money earner for the government. I don't think I remember this in the FG manifesto. :rolleyes:


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    #189
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,672 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dev100 wrote: »
    Technically if the water is sourced underground then its not yours. You may end up having to pay it
    Strange logic, but no, you would not have to end up paying for it. The Water metering will go to pay for operating the water grid. Your well is not on the water grid. Therefore, no metering.


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    #190
    alejandro1977
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭alejandro1977


    keithob wrote: »
    will people get this bondholders malarky out of there heads........

    the eu / imf and bondholders are in this for money and noting else.



    you people are so hung up on bondholders - there is a huge deficit there anyway, how do you propose closing the difference between income and expenditure?


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    #191
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    OK - so you believe that we can default on the unsecured bondholders without negative consequences?

    Well our credit rating has already been downgraded so there is a logic that the defaulting on some bond payments has already been factored in.

    If they don't want this to be the case or thought it wouldn't be then they would not have downgraded the debt. They obviously feel we are not likely to pay so it won't come as a big surprise to them if we don't.

    The consequences are likely to be that we continue with the IMF anyway until they forget about it and then we can go back to the markets as if nothing happened as we will be a good investment again because we won't be over borrowed. In the past we have shown we are a good investment when that is the case. If it looks like we are heading toward an over borrowing territory again in the future then we will likely see bond yields rise again in the future but then I think we all plan not to end up here again.


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    #192
    Galia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 129 ✭✭Galia


    So if i do not pay could the government just jail me or seize my home?

    Which in a few years will jump to 500 euro and beyond and if you do not pay it you will be jailed and or fined or both and possibly if you refuse your home sold off ?

    So everyone is really just renting back there home from the government!!?????

    I do not understand how 1 person in this country can support such a thing .


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    #193
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    So what the government has done really is a massive seizure of everyone's homes and if u want to keep it you have to pay the government a 100 euro tax.
    Which in a few years will jump to 500 euro and beyond and if you do not pay it you will be jailed and or fined or both and possibly if you refuse your home sold off ?
    So everyone is really just renting back there home from the government!!
    I do not understand how 1 person in this country can support such a thing
    .

    Have you actually read the thread?


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    #194
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    alejandro1977 wrote: »
    you people are so hung up on bondholders - there is a huge deficit there anyway, how do you propose closing the difference between income and expenditure?

    Would the deficit be as large today if the last government were not as occuppied with saving banks and developers?


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    #195
    Galia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 129 ✭✭Galia


    ardmacha wrote: »
    .

    Have you actually read the thread?

    OK maybe i worded it wrong..... let me start again .
    .......
    I was basically saying what would be the worse case scenario if a person refused?
    If people all over Ireland boycotted this tax Would a person be jailed or fined or a house seized if a failure to pay happened?
    Basically would Government taking away someones property..to pay for the tax in a worst case scenario ..?

    I will now edit my post so to simplify my point.
    I am just so angry that this government is doing this .


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    #196
    bueno
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭bueno


    sher55 wrote: »
    Have u actually read my post?:rolleyes:

    I was basically saying what would be the worse case scenario if a person refused?
    Would a person be jailed or fined or a house seized if a failure to pay happened.
    Basically would Government taking away someones property..to pay for the tax in a worst case scenario ..?
    Am i right or wrong ?
    I will now edit my post so to simplify my point.
    I am just so angry that this government is doing this .

    Everyone is angry but the country is f ##ed. The last government have left us in a total mess. Houses won't be seized for €100, so no need for all out panic/drama. I presume they will pursue the unpaid charge the way Revenue would pursue unpaid taxes - sheriff, court proceedings or attaching bank accounts. Saying that, I imagine they will use some discretion if people can show proof of inability to pay. The fact is taxes are going to get higher, wages lower and benefits will drop. The gap between income and expenditure and deficit is too large and has to be dealt with in some way, regardless of whether we are bailing out bondholders or not.


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    #197
    Galia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 129 ✭✭Galia


    bueno wrote: »
    Everyone is angry but the country is f ##ed. The last government have left us in a total mess. Houses won't be seized for €100, so no need for all out panic/drama. I presume they will pursue the unpaid charge the way Revenue would pursue unpaid taxes - sheriff, court proceedings or attaching bank accounts. Saying that, I imagine they will use some discretion if people can show proof of inability to pay. The fact is taxes are going to get higher, wages lower and benefits will drop. The gap between income and expenditure and deficit is too large and has to be dealt with in some way, regardless of whether we are bailing out bondholders or not.

    Yes maybe not for 100 euro but these things tend to rise rapidly soon it will go to 500 euro and maybe more.


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    #198
    Bens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 261 ✭✭Bens


    The backlash seems to be dying down. Will be just like the bin charges. People ranting and raving for a few weeks and then they all bend over to take their medicine in the end. Glad I left tbh.


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    #199
    !3theraven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭!3theraven


    sher55 wrote: »
    So if i do not pay could the government just jail me or seize my home?

    Which in a few years will jump to 500 euro and beyond and if you do not pay it you will be jailed and or fined or both and possibly if you refuse your home sold off ?

    So everyone is really just renting back there home from the government!!?????

    I do not understand how 1 person in this country can support such a thing .

    If you research how property taxes work in the states, if someone refuses to pay, or cannot afford to pay when property tax Increases the local goverment, local council Intervenes and sells the persons OWN PROPERTY off in an auction, and if people don,t resist property taxes here in this country the very same will happen here, and I agree with you how could one person in this country support such a thing?


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    #200
    alejandro1977
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭alejandro1977


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    alejandro1977 wrote: »
    you people are so hung up on bondholders - there is a huge deficit there anyway, how do you propose closing the difference between income and expenditure?

    Would the deficit be as large today if the last government were not as occuppied with saving banks and developers?

    Deficit in current spending? Do you know what current spending is?
    yes it would still be unsustainable. Read this forum a little more.

    Would you care to put some figures into your argument. Give a guess what the income is and repeat for expenditure.


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    #201
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    !3theraven wrote: »
    If you research how property taxes work in the states, if someone refuses to pay, or cannot afford to pay when property tax Increases the local goverment, local council Intervenes and sells the persons OWN PROPERTY off in an auction, and if people don,t resist property taxes here in this country the very same will happen here, and I agree with you how could one person in this country support such a thing?

    I don't think people have actually cottoned on to what this means. This is a tax on your home, it is not a service charge. I have already paid thousands of pounds/euros in taxes on my home so I could own it outright. What this is saying is,I don't own it. It is not like tax on your car, where once you've paid vat or registration tax, the car is yours to do what you like with, any further tax you pay is for access to a public service. This is feudalism by another name.


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    #202
    !3theraven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭!3theraven


    bmaxi wrote: »
    I don't think people have actually cottoned on to what this means. This is a tax on your home, it is not a service charge. I have already paid thousands of pounds/euros in taxes on my home so I could own it outright. What this is saying is,I don't own it. It is not like tax on your car, where once you've paid vat or registration tax, the car is yours to do what you like with, any further tax you pay is for access to a public service. This is feudalism by another name.


    Well said, like you I also paid thousands of pounds/euros in taxes on my home in the form of stamp duty,so I could own it outright, and I boughy my house back in 1997, way before the whole housing/property bubble started, this property tax is bluntly telling homeowners they longer own their own homes.


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    #203
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    bmaxi wrote: »
    I don't think people have actually cottoned on to what this means. This is a tax on your home, it is not a service charge. I have already paid thousands of pounds/euros in taxes on my home so I could own it outright. What this is saying is,I don't own it. It is not like tax on your car, where once you've paid vat or registration tax, the car is yours to do what you like with, any further tax you pay is for access to a public service. This is feudalism by another name.

    Eh, if I recall correctly, I just paid 443 euro to tax my car for another year. I paid thousands of euro in VRT and VAT when I bought the car and I pay car tax every year. To my knowledge, that car tax is not set aside for any particular reason and is put directly into the central funding.

    If my house is brought in line with my car, so be it.


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    #204
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Godge wrote: »
    Eh, if I recall correctly, I just paid 443 euro to tax my car for another year. I paid thousands of euro in VRT and VAT when I bought the car and I pay car tax every year. To my knowledge, that car tax is not set aside for any particular reason and is put directly into the central funding.

    If my house is brought in line with my car, so be it.

    That's because you are availing of a public service, i.e. the road. Once you have paid VAT and VRT the car is yours to dispose of as you see fit.
    IMO what this tax is doing is making the Government your ground landlord. If they want to impose service charges, so be it, but this is different.


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    #205
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    bmaxi wrote: »
    That's because you are availing of a public service, i.e. the road. Once you have paid VAT and VRT the car is yours to dispose of as you see fit.
    IMO what this tax is doing is making the Government your ground landlord. If they want to impose service charges, so be it, but this is different.
    Home owners also avail of public services such as water, sewerage, Gardai, hospitals, education, postal service, fire service, etc.* A property tax is not telling homeowners they longer own their own homes, it is telling them you have to pay for the services the state provides for you. We can no longer borrow €20bn a year to provide all these services.

    And before anyone comes back and says something about "bend over and take it" blah blah, until you find another source of funding for the country, or manage to bring our expenditure in line with our income without cutting services, you are just living in denial.

    *For all those who are about to say that they pay for their own well/septic tank; the cost of Gardai, hospitals, education, postal service, fire service is higher in sparsely populated rural areas so it is only fair you make an increased contribution towards the services you do use.


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    #206
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Home owners also avail of public services such as water, sewerage, Gardai, hospitals, education, postal service, fire service, etc.* A property tax is not telling homeowners they longer own their own homes, it is telling them you have to pay for the services the state provides for you. We can no longer borrow €20bn a year to provide all these services.

    And before anyone comes back and says something about "bend over and take it" blah blah, until you find another source of funding for the country, or manage to bring our expenditure in line with our income without cutting services, you are just living in denial.

    *For all those who are about to say that they pay for their own well/septic tank; the cost of Gardai, hospitals, education, postal service, fire service is higher in sparsely populated rural areas so it is only fair you make an increased contribution towards the services you do use.

    Maybe if you took time to read the post you'd see that I'm not opposed to service charges per se, I'm opposed to the fact that the Government are potentially being given a stake in my home, which I have bought and paid for.


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    #207
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    bmaxi wrote: »
    Maybe if you took time to read the post you'd see that I'm not opposed to service charges per se, I'm opposed to the fact that the Government are potentially being given a stake in my home, which I have bought and paid for.
    I read your post. How is a property tax akin to the government getting a stake in your home? Do you also think the government has a stake in your car, which you pay motor tax on? or the box of Cornflakes you bought for your breakfast, which you pay VAT on?

    That is just over-dramatic, sensationalist crap.


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    #208
    Andrew33
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Andrew33


    RedXIV wrote: »
    As another someone with 2 kids, I sympathise. but I'm not gonna get thrown out of my house for an extra €9 a month

    And just who exactly is going to put you out of your house?
    Do you believe they'll stop at €100 per year?
    Do you believe they'll drop the €100 per year when they introduce the water rates and the property tax?
    They will in their hole, they'll call it something else and continue to collect it.
    You stand up and fight now or you (and your kids) will spend the rest of your life in Ireland on your fcuking knees.


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    #209
    Bens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 261 ✭✭Bens


    I posted this suggestion in another thread

    My proposal is just to remove all property related tax reliefs.
    Mortgage Interest relief.
    Rental tax credits.
    Investor mortgage interest relief.

    That way they would raise far more than having a property tax. Everyone investing, renting or owning a house would be caught in the net. And you dont pay extra tax, you just get less of a discount on your tax.
    And it costs NOTHING at all to collect. They just remove the tax break you already have.
    And its impossible to just refuse it.
    People on low incomes who dont pay tax arent effected at all.
    What could be easier.

    Maybe you shouldnt have to pay tax on your home, but Why on earth should anyone one get tax relief for where they live at all, be they renting or owning?

    And for the people saying "Every other European country has a property tax, why shouldnt we"
    I bet you wont see people coming out with "Every European country has a religion related tax so we should pay that too."

    Generally its the people who didnt buy houses who want a property tax. As usual everyone wants the other person to pay more tax.

    Maybe we should just have something like rates, where everyone pays just for living in an area - owning or renting. Then you'll see the people wishing for more taxes suddenly about turn.


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    #210
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I read your post. How is a property tax akin to the government getting a stake in your home? Do you also think the government has a stake in your car, which you pay motor tax on? or the box of Cornflakes you bought for your breakfast, which you pay VAT on?

    That is just over-dramatic, sensationalist crap.

    No they don't, which is the whole point. Try reading the thread.


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    #211
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Bens wrote: »
    I posted this suggestion in another thread

    My proposal is just to remove all property related tax reliefs.
    Mortgage Interest relief.
    Rental tax credits.
    Investor mortgage interest relief.

    That way they would raise far more than having a property tax. Everyone investing, renting or owning a house would be caught in the net. And you dont pay extra tax, you just get less of a discount on your tax.
    And it costs NOTHING at all to collect. They just remove the tax break you already have.
    And its impossible to just refuse it.
    People on low incomes who dont pay tax arent effected at all.
    What could be easier.

    Maybe you shouldnt have to pay tax on your home, but Why on earth should anyone one get tax relief for where they live at all, be they renting or owning?

    And for the people saying "Every other European country has a property tax, why shouldnt we"
    I bet you wont see people coming out with "Every European country has a religion related tax so we should pay that too."

    Generally its the people who didnt buy houses who want a property tax. As usual everyone wants the other person to pay more tax.

    Maybe we should just have something like rates, where everyone pays just for living in an area - owning or renting. Then you'll see the people wishing for more taxes suddenly about turn.

    People that don't own a house still have to pay somehow as they live somewhere so they'll pay in extra rent. Do you really think landlords are going to absorb the cost?


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