New Household Tax - Boycott

Bens

thebman wrote: »

People that don't own a house still have to pay somehow as they live somewhere so they'll pay in extra rent. Do you really think landlords are going to absorb the cost?

No need to worry about landlords.
Landords can only charge what the market will carry.
Its not up to them whether they absorb anything or not. If rent can be got cheaper then thats where the tenants will rent. If it cant, then thats the market price and thats what tenants will have to pay.

Why should anyone whether renting or buying get tax relief on their rent/mortgage?

thebman

Bens wrote: »

No need to worry about landlords.
Landords can only charge what the market will carry.
Its not up to them whether they absorb anything or not. If rent can be got cheaper then thats where the tenants will rent. If it cant, then thats the market price and thats what tenants will have to pay.

Why should anyone whether renting or buying get tax relief on their rent/mortgage?

The market isn't that awash with rental property in most areas that people actually want to rent so competition will be very bad. Only the unemployed renting can freely move.

I don't think anybody should get rent or mortgage relief. There are idiotic vote buying reliefs which ignore that the money was taking off the public, lost some along the way and then handed it back to the people.

Bens

thebman wrote: »

The market isn't that awash with rental property in most areas that people actually want to rent so competition will be very bad. Only the unemployed renting can freely move.

I don't think anybody should get rent or mortgage relief. There are idiotic vote buying reliefs which ignore that the money was taking off the public, lost some along the way and then handed it back to the people.

You arent making any sense at all tbh.

thebman

Bens wrote: »

You arent making any sense at all tbh.

Which part doesn't make sense and why?

Tim Robbins

RobitTV wrote: »

Yeah, But dont we pay enough bill's and tax's?

Do we seriously need another 2, and put poorer families under pressure.

Poorer families dont have Money for bill's dont forget that, They dont get everyday treats and surprise's, They just comfort themselves knowing they have some food to feed their children.

So you should go and tell them that, Tell them its "Cheap" And see what they have to say to that.

If they are poor they won't own a house and the tax won't be applicable.

Tim Robbins

Bens wrote: »

"Every European country has a religion related tax so we should pay that too."

That's an even better idea than property tax!

Generally its the people who didnt buy houses who want a property tax. As usual everyone wants the other person to pay more tax.

Maybe we should just have something like rates, where everyone pays just for living in an area - owning or renting. Then you'll see the people wishing for more taxes suddenly about turn.

I can only speak for myself but I got burnt twice in the property boom. Down minimum 200K and would still be in favour of this tax.

It really annoys me the way some people are really feeling the pain of the economic collapse whereas some others are barely feeling anything.

A property tax I think distributes the pain more evenly.

And it makes much more economic sense than stamp duty which was anti - transactional.

Son Of A Vidic

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ireland's average response: Bend over and take it up the ass to continue funding bailed out gangsters.

WAKE THE F*** UP, PEOPLE.

And that's the only motivation behind it, not some rubbish notion of replacing the infrastructure. Christ, we still have infrastructure in place that the Brits left us here in the 26.

Bens

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's an even better idea than property tax!


I can only speak for myself but I got burnt twice in the property boom. Down minimum 200K and would still be in favour of this tax.

It really annoys me the way some people are really feeling the pain of the economic collapse whereas some others are barely feeling anything.

A property tax I think distributes the pain more evenly.

And it makes much more economic sense than stamp duty which was anti - transactional.

There is nothing "even" about it.
A tax where everyone pays it for living in an area, instead of just homeowners would be more even, dont you think?

OhNoYouDidn't

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's an even better idea than property tax!


I can only speak for myself but I got burnt twice in the property boom. Down minimum 200K and would still be in favour of this tax.

It really annoys me the way some people are really feeling the pain of the economic collapse whereas some others are barely feeling anything.

A property tax I think distributes the pain more evenly.

And it makes much more economic sense than stamp duty which was anti - transactional.

Please explain this one, I'm fascinated to how you came to that conclusion

Tim Robbins

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Please explain this one, I'm fascinated to how you came to that conclusion

Because as citizens of a society we all carry responsibility to keep society cohesive. This is part of civilization.

I am in favour of all forms of taxes. It is the only way you can make some people respect and acknowledge what they are getting.

Even if you pay for absolutely everything to build your own house, you have no street lighting and have a septic tank in your back garden and hence do not cost the state a penny, you still need to have a stable society in order to have any quality of life. The only reason why you can build your own house is because of the priviledge afforded to you from a stable society. For this priviledge you should pay tax.

My real issue with tax is when it is wasted. Over paying public sector people or throwing it failed banks. Otherwise I am in favour of all forms of taxes.

I am on the left for the collection of taxes and on the right for the use of taxes.

OhNoYouDidn't

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Because as citizens of a society we all carry responsibility to keep society cohesive. This is part of civilization.

I am in favour of all forms of taxes. It is the only way you can make some people respect and acknowledge what they are getting.

Even if you pay for absolutely everything to build your own house, you have no street lighting and have a septic tank in your back garden and hence do not cost the state a penny, you still need to have a stable society in order to have any quality of life. The only reason why you can build your own house is because of the priviledge afforded to you from a stable society. For this priviledge you should pay tax.

My real issue with tax is when it is wasted. Over paying public sector people or throwing it failed banks. Otherwise I am in favour of all forms of taxes.

I am on the left for the collection of taxes and on the right for the use of taxes.

No, no no.

Please explain how a regressive tax (each household to pay the same regardless of income) ' distributes the pain more evenly'

Hoffmans

see theres a lot of fine gaeoulers posting on here supporting this rubbish/
if kenny can pay a few billion to some foreign bondbankster then theres no need to be throwing poll tax like liens on peoples homes they already got stampduty or other tolls when they were been conveyenced, so ..now they can go to hell with their troica bed buddies....

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Resist-the-100-Imf-Household-Charge/224104584297287

bmaxi

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If they are poor they won't own a house and the tax won't be applicable.

That's a typical Thatcherite comment, ranks up there with "get on your bike" There are lots of people who are poor and own their homes. They were made poor by the antics of the previous shower of gangsters in government and their developer buddies, now this current government has decided that they aren't poor enough.

Tim Robbins

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No, no no.

Please explain how a regressive tax (each household to pay the same regardless of income) ' distributes the pain more evenly'

Wealth isn't just about income. It's also about what capital you have.

If you own your house you have capital. You have more capital then someone who does not.

Some people have flashy cars but don't have much income. Do you think they should be exempt as well?

bmaxi wrote:

That's a typical Thatcherite comment, ranks up there with "get on your bike" There are lots of people who are poor and own their homes. They were made poor by the antics of the previous shower of gangsters in government and their developer buddies, now this current government has decided that they aren't poor enough.

The vast majority of people did not care what the developers were doing. They went around saying "this is crazy" but would have rather spent their time watching x-factor, corination street than actually writing an objection to something a developer was trying to do.

bmaxi

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The vast majority of people did not care what the developers were doing. They went around saying "this is crazy" but would have rather spent their time watching x-factor, corination street than actually writing an objection to something a developer was trying to do.

You really did go to the Thatcher finishing school, where how to heap the blame on to everyone but those responsible, is an "A" subject.
As I recall, in my area, when objections were raised there were always plenty of rent boys in the local council to override them and if that failed, the County Manager or Bord Pleanála could always be counted on.
The people were told over and over again by those trusted to run the country, that the good times were here to stay. Even when concerns were raised, those raising them were encouraged to go and top themselves.
Probably the biggest mistake made in a democracy is to put your faith in crooked politicians but when you have arse covering from all sides and no culpability, it's an easy mistake to make. Let's just hope we haven't made it again.

Tim Robbins

bmaxi wrote: »

You really did go to the Thatcher finishing school, where how to heap the blame on to everyone but those responsible, is an "A" subject.
As I recall, in my area, when objections were raised there were always plenty of rent boys in the local council to override them and if that failed, the County Manager or Bord Pleanála could always be counted on.
The people were told over and over again by those trusted to run the country, that the good times were here to stay. Even when concerns were raised, those raising them were encouraged to go and top themselves.
Probably the biggest mistake made in a democracy is to put your faith in crooked politicians but when you have arse covering from all sides and no culpability, it's an easy mistake to make. Let's just hope we haven't made it again.

Me a thatcherite! You're more like a shinner against every form of tax except those on 100K a year!

In my area, I checked the number of the objectives and it was always pretty pretty bleak. One time I went to a planning meeting organised by the socialist party and I was the only person who turned up to it.

Some thatcherite - eh :-)

Where I'd differ from Thatcherites is that I would have taxes on nearly everything. She wouldn't. Where I would agree with her is cutting out waste.

highgiant1985

bmaxi wrote: »

That's a typical Thatcherite comment, ranks up there with "get on your bike" There are lots of people who are poor and own their homes. They were made poor by the antics of the previous shower of gangsters in government and their developer buddies, now this current government has decided that they aren't poor enough.

wouldn't poor people be renting anyway and what will happen in that case? Will Landlords just charge the renters the cost of this fee?

alejandro1977

highgiant1985 wrote: »

wouldn't poor people be renting anyway and what will happen in that case? Will Landlords just charge the renters the cost of this fee?

In the UK renters have to pay the council tax; however ion Ireland there's so much extra housing that renters have more power- and rents are lower or should be.

However I suspect many people will claim to be poor actually own their own house and are not poor my normal international standards. Those working in the black economy will have to start paying their fair share.That's the great thing about a property tax - even Tony Soprano has to pay property tax. The Unions will come out again and say that only Mansions/Trophy Houses should be subject...

Of course the Labour Party was the party that wanted to get rid of the Residential Property Tax - why has that slipped the memory of so many people?

Fergus Finlay's book gives an interesting account of the objections of the wealthy people in Kildare to the RPT in the 1990s (?)

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming-Weaning-Irish-off-damaging-addiction-to-property-11343.html

bmaxi

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Me a thatcherite! You're more like a shinner against every form of tax except those on 100K a year!

In my area, I checked the number of the objectives and it was always pretty pretty bleak. One time I went to a planning meeting organised by the socialist party and I was the only person who turned up to it.

Some thatcherite - eh :-)

Where I'd differ from Thatcherites is that I would have taxes on nearly everything. She wouldn't. Where I would agree with her is cutting out waste.

Nope, not a shinner, though I predict quite a few Labour supporters will be come the next election, if you care to read a few posts back you'd see I'm not against service charges per se. Their abolition was an unmitigated disaster and another example of FF's "live for today and worry about the future when we get there", policies.
What I object to in this tax is the lien it places on the family home.

Tim Robbins

bmaxi wrote: »

Nope, not a shinner, though I predict quite a few Labour supporters will be come the next election, if you care to read a few posts back you'd see I'm not against service charges per se. Their abolition was an unmitigated disaster and another example of FF's "live for today and worry about the future when we get there", policies.
What I object to in this tax is the lien it places on the family home.

What line? It will be less .1% of the value of the family home and that's when it will rise to 300 per year.

You live in your family home, you pay a mere 4% tax on the value of it over 40 years.

Seems like the fairest and lowest tax we have.

alejandro1977

bmaxi wrote: »

What I object to in this tax is the lien it places on the family home.

how else would it be enforced?

The State provides the rule of law in Ireland- that includes property rights and 100E p.a. is a small price for defending proper title.

Liens are the norm in the US I believe if the property tax isn't paid

Tim Robbins

alejandro1977 wrote: »

how else would it be enforced?

The State provides the rule of law in Ireland- that includes property rights and 100E p.a. is a small price for defending proper title.

Liens are the norm in the US I believe if the property tax isn't paid

Exactly. If it was not for the state you would never own a house.
You would have no legal protection on your rights as an owner.

FreudianSlippers

... aren't the majority of people bitching about this tax living in council housing already?!

Bullseye1

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

... aren't the majority of people bitching about this tax living in council housing already?!

I wouldn't think so. I'm sure there is a large section of home owners struggling to pay their mortgage who are not relying on the state to pay their way.

Tim Robbins

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I wouldn't think so. I'm sure there is a large section of home owners struggling to pay their mortgage who are not relying on the state to pay their way.

You are better off if you are struggling to pay your morgage - better chance of debt forgiveness.

It's those who are stuck trying to bring up families who bought one bed and two bed apartments to get on the ladder who are really hammered. Not in enough debt to get debt forgiveness but still scr*wed.

Paying for their own mistakes and everyone elses.

LeixlipRed

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

... aren't the majority of people bitching about this tax living in council housing already?!

This is actually the most borderline offensive thing I've read on here in a long time. Implication, only poor people complain :rolleyes:

Tim Robbins

LeixlipRed wrote: »

This is actually the most borderline offensive thing I've read on here in a long time. Implication, only poor people complain :rolleyes:

In comparison to all other taxes this one is pretty bleedin weak. 100 euro is 12 hours work at minimum wage.

And if you so poor that a bank would never give you a mortgage or has already repossessed your house you are getting a way better deal renting and won't have to worry about this tax.

OhNoYouDidn't

Tim Robbins wrote: »

In comparison to all other taxes this one is pretty bleedin weak. 100 euro is 12 hours work at minimum wage.

And if you so poor that a bank would never give you a mortgage or has already repossessed your house you are getting a way better deal renting and won't have to worry about this tax.

Or 5 mins work for a barrister.

That is the problem with a regressive tax that you keep conveniently avoiding.

Why not just increase lower rate PAYE 1% and higher 2%? Job is done. Fair. Equitable.

bmaxi

alejandro1977 wrote: »

how else would it be enforced?

The State provides the rule of law in Ireland- that includes property rights and 100E p.a. is a small price for defending proper title.

Liens are the norm in the US I believe if the property tax isn't paid

Oh well, if it's ok in the US it must be a good thing, they have such a good grip on everything. I suppose leaving people to die because they can't afford the right insurance is next on the list.
People, well those who seem to think €100 is small change and presumably see the €1000 it'll probably be in a few years as the same, need to realise that this legislation has the capacity to take away the home bought and paid for, probably over many years, purely because of inability to pay. You may not always be as flush as you are now, there are many people in Ireland living hand to mouth who, only a short time ago, thought the same way.

Tim Robbins

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Or 5 mins work for a barrister.

That is the problem with a regressive tax that you keep conveniently avoiding.

Why not just increase lower rate PAYE 1% and higher 2%? Job is done. Fair. Equitable.

Well a lot of Barristers never make it and spend their lives as office admin but applying your point to say 'consultants' or any high earners - they already pay income tax which is in proportion to their income.

Not all taxes should be based on income. Could you imagine VAT changed for your income?

A tax system should be a split between income and consumer usage. I have no problem with that.

A TV license which is more than the first round of property tax has nothing to do with your income. It is also far more unfair because you pay even if you never watch RTE.