New Household Tax - Boycott

mikep

I personally agree with this tax, for me €100 a year isn't too bad, for now...

What confuses me is the "left" (ULA/Jim Higgins etc) constantly go on about the "rich/elite" not making their fair share...It seems to me that the €100 will be replaced in 2 years by a property tax based on valuation, therefore the "rich/elite" will pay more in the future, if they live in swanky houses as opposed to council estates,...Isn't that what the "left" want???

nesf

annil wrote: »

We need to refuse to pay this tax. It is an interim charge which will rapidly rise. In the UK a householder in a 3 bed semi would pay about £1000 a year and that will happen here unlesr people stand together and boycott this outrageous tax that is just another way of stealing money from hardworking taxpayers to help bailout the banks.

Gah, I can't stand this. It's got sweet **** all to do with the banks and everything to do with our massive current deficit in the Budget. If we only had the banks to worry about we wouldn't be anywhere close to the mess we're currently in.

Uriel.

annil wrote: »

We need to refuse to pay this tax. It is an interim charge which will rapidly rise. In the UK a householder in a 3 bed semi would pay about £1000 a year and that will happen here unlesr people stand together and boycott this outrageous tax that is just another way of stealing money from hardworking taxpayers to help bailout the banks.

As a matter of interest, you say that an average homeowner in Britain pays circa €1,000 per annum for a similar charge. At the same time you say that we here should refuse to pay.

Why should we be different to Britain or the multiple other modern economies that have similar charges?

Bullseye1

Isn't it correct to say that this household charge does not include the water charge we I believe will be an additional €100. So people will actually be required to pay €200.

seamus

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Isn't it correct to say that this household charge does not include the water charge we I believe will be an additional €100. So people will actually be required to pay €200.

Probably. Though water charges will be different, as they will only be payable by those connected to the public water mains. Those with their own wells or on group water schemes already pay for their water, and so wouldn't be subject to a water charge.

nuac

It is only in Utopia that everything can be free and nobody has to pay for anything.

ei.sdraob

nesf wrote: »

Gah, I can't stand this. It's got sweet **** all to do with the banks and everything to do with our massive current deficit in the Budget. If we only had the banks to worry about we wouldn't be anywhere close to the mess we're currently in.

Do you pour more water into a bucket with many holes in it, or do you patchup the bucket first

nesf

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Do you pour more water into a bucket with many holes in it, or do you patchup the bucket first

When the water level is already under where it needs to be, you need to do both.

Bullseye1

nuac wrote: »

It is only in Utopia that everything can be free and nobody has to pay for anything.

People paid alot of money to the government for their houses through VAT and Stamp Duty. They haven't been living in utopia.

While I agree in principal with some kind of property tax it should have been brought in 10 years ago on all investment properties. Irish governments are never ahead of the game everything they do is a reaction.

ei.sdraob

nesf wrote: »

When the water level is already under where it needs to be, you need to do both.

Myself and many people here it seems have no issue with the concept of taxation, the main problem is people realising that this money will not go where its promised and the usual lack of transparency intertwined with lies.

If you listen to the minister yesterday you would come under the impression that this scheme could be operated at no cost, I bet you 100 million out 160 collected will just endup on "administration costs"
The remainder would be sent to the central government who would then redistribute it back (after taking a cut of X) to each council based on some weights (population?)

What we have here is the birth of yet another beuracratic web that will grow like a parasite year on year.



Someone mentioned countries like Germany earlier, the US for example has property taxes which are highly variable but you can bet the money stays locally and the amount of detail available in the federal budgets is amazing, on the other hand has anyone ever tried to gather statistics/info about the Irish government spending? the system here is highly opaque, lack of transparency leads to corruption and waste and of course as we all now know no accountability

Tim Robbins

okiss wrote: »

To Tim Robbins re your earlier post - It's also a good way to get self employed people who dodge tax...

I'm sorry for the generalisation but any self employed person I know does not fully declare for tax.

I think it is unfair PAYE workers get no choice in the matter while self employed can write half their life off as an expense and those who deal in cash don't even have to go that far.

Tim Robbins

I pay 200 euro property tax for my sole residence simply because I don't live there. I have no problem with this. Property tax if you live in the place will be much lower.

I am really struggling why Irish people find it difficult to deal with a tax that is normal in every single other western democracy.

Bullseye1

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I pay 200 euro property tax for my sole residence simply because I don't live there. I have no problem with this. Property tax if you live in the place will be much lower.

I am really struggling why Irish people find it difficult to deal with a tax that is normal in every single other western democracy.

Maybe because our services are not as good as those other democracies. Most people would be happy to pay these taxes if they knew the money was remaining in the locality and not ending up in the general coffers.

Diarmuid

meglome wrote: »

If we had been paying a property tax and a water tax all along we would have decent water pipes and we wouldn't have gone mad wasting fast money got from stamp duty.

The government was receiving huge amount of (unsustainable) income from various taxes in the bubble years. We still have crap water pipes and they still wasted that income, handing it out left, right and center to vested interested to get themselves re-elected.
Why will this tax be any more wisely spent?

BluntGuy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Maybe because our services are not as good as those other democracies. Most people would be happy to pay these taxes if they knew the money was remaining in the locality and not ending up in the general coffers.

I agree. If this charge went hand in hand with comprehensive reform of the local government system, where local councils were given real revenue generation powers and made to account for all their spending, then I wouldn't mind. It would be a real missed opportunity if that wasn't done.

careca11

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I pay 200 euro property tax for my sole residence simply because I don't live there. I have no problem with this. Property tax if you live in the place will be much lower.

I am really struggling why Irish people find it difficult to deal with a tax that is normal in every single other western democracy.

because in most western european countries their property tax goes towards refuse charges, road maintainence water charges fire brigade services , etc

here we already pay bin charges, road tax (suppose to be towards upkeep of roads) right, call out charge for the fire brigade plus a lot of us pay local fees for the upkeep of our estate etc , and we are going to be paying water charges on top of this

this charge of €100 will simply go towards county council salaries/expenses as they are short on money due to collapsed deals with Developers , less money coming in from Rates due to closure of shops etc. or will go paying off the debt built up on lies upon lies.

once this is brought in , it will go only one way


The Gov would be better off ploughing all their efforts into reducing expenditure, like unvouched expenses , high pay for themselves, higher public sectore pay (especially the layer upon layer of mickey mouse management roles ) , tax cheats , social welfare cheats , cut the foreign aid budget , budget for the Arts ,

Tim Robbins

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Maybe because our services are not as good as those other democracies. Most people would be happy to pay these taxes if they knew the money was remaining in the locality and not ending up in the general coffers.

Very true. But if it's clear what people are paying their local councils maybe they might actually take an interest in putting a bit of pressure on them.

I'd love to see say the county council budget directly funded by this tax. Then if people knew that a 4K a property tax was paying someone in the county council 80K+ pension to work in a planning office, they might actually take a bit of citizen's interest in these people were actually doing what they were paid to do.

And if there was a strong argument for cutting some salaries, the government would get some support rather than most people being apathetic or falling from the nonsense coming from the Unions.

My point is the only way to make some people take an interest is to make them pay for it.

If you look at management companies, people who pay managment fees are genuinely far more interested in where there money goes than people who don't and just get the county council or whoever looking after their road.

hinault

Taxation needs to be progressive.

In a country where politicians are hell bent on collecting tax to pay for insolvent banks (whether those banks are insolvent Irish banks and/or German/French banks is immaterial) is neither progressive or just.

This household charge smacks of motor tax.
Tax is collected but it doesn't go to maintaining the road infrastructure.

This household tax is another such tax.

ei.sdraob

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Very true. But if it's clear what people are paying their local councils maybe they might actually take an interest in putting a bit of pressure on them.

The money will be collected locally but then it will be sent to the central government as per yesterdays announcement and then whatever remains is redistributed back

What happens if most people in lets say the Republic of Cork decides not to pay...

mattser

bkeano wrote: »

Hi all Boardies

Can we all please make a stance here and get our non boardies to do the same. Enough is Enough We should not pay this new household Tax. Its the same as the Poll tax in the UK. I am an normal Joe Soap with 2 kids. I cant pay any more Taxes. I can afford it as it is. I am lucky to have my Job.

We need to mount a serious objection here and nationwide.

thanks
Brian

Unfortunately we must pay this. Put it down to everyone who voted a particular way for the past decade and a half. There were quite a few, you know. It is possible they may even be whinging on this thread.

blackdog2

Lots of people saying "Well Ireland is a low tax country etcetc", but the Irish state in all honesty probably offers the lowest level of service I have ever seen. All other countries I have been to offer a far greater level of value for money. Now they are bringing the costs up, while cutting services and charges.

Vote with your feet, leave the godforsaken place. At least then maybe you can live in a nice, safe place. It doesn't look like it will change for the better any time soon.

Dirk Gently

In theory I agree with a property tax as part of a stable and sustainable tax base. I oppose the introduction of this though as the economy simply can not take it at the moment. The 100 euro is a token charge, it will of course be increased significantly in coming years. This will represent a lot of peoples disposable income, money which wont be spent in shops or on services in the local economy, forcing many small businesses to close as people simply have no money left over to spend. more places closing, more people on the dole queue, higher deficit as we have to fund welfare payments. We should be stimulating our economy right now, not purposely doing everything we can to stop it growing. More people working means more taxes and less welfare expenditure, taxing people to the point of subsistence does the opposite. Most business out there are just about covering (reduced) wages at the moment and many owners are not drawing salaries as it is, they dont need peoples spending power decreased even further.

When people have money to spend, when jobs are created and when we have less people barely keeping their heads above water I think the idea should be revisited and pitched together with a full transparent online ledger showing the money coming in and what it is being spent on locally. The public ledger should be available and updated regularly on local council web pages showing exactly where the money is being spent.

Similarly, in theory I agree with water metering but don't think it should be a revenue raising exercise. Frankly this is a dangerous one and one which I think should require a constitutional amendment to guarantee a free basic water supply to every household and only the excess charged for those who waste beyond their basic need.

Magic Beans

When I send off my cheque for €100 I know exactly how it will be spent and what value I will get for it? - None, abosultely none .

Dail Eireann - Written Answers - Ministerial Travel wrote:

297. Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for Arts; Heritage and the Gaeltacht the rate of travel expense that is mileage paid for use of his private cars; the rate of subsistence payments and any other allowances available to him and his Ministers of State in the course of their appointment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17234/11] Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Jimmy Deenihan): Both the Minister of State in my Department, Deputy. Dinny McGinley, and I can claim a maximum mileage of 96,540 kms per annum broken down as follows:—
cc of car 1501 to 2000
Mileage Kms High Rate Reduced Rate First 6,437 €0.5907 Remainder 90,103 €0.2846 Maximum 96,540
We may also claim the difference between Class 1 and Class 11 car insurance and any other official expenses incurred during the trip, e.g., public transport, parking, tolls, etc.
The subsistence allowances available to all Government employees, including Ministers and Minister of State, are set by the Department of Finance. The current overnight subsistence allowance for domestic travel available to both myself and the Minister of State is €72.66 plus the vouched cost of a hotel room (including tax and up to 15% service charge.)
We may claim a day rate of €33.61 in respect of a 10 hour absence from the office and €13.71 in respect of a 5 hour absence from the office.
When travelling abroad (including Northern Ireland), both I and my Minister of State may claim the vouched cost of a hotel room and up to 15% service charge plus the applicable A civil service conference rate for the destination in question increased by one third (with the exception of the USA and Canada where it is increased by one half).

There's my property / water tax and more for a whole year right there. Gone in one day. Gone into a TD's pocket. :mad:

Forget the tax - combat the current waste.
The Govt coffers are haemorraging money.
Fix it, fix it now.

hinault

If enough citizens boycott this tax, the government will end up spending millions in trying to collect/prosecute/bring to court/imprison all those who boycott this
tax.

Tim Robbins

hinault wrote: »

If enough citizens boycott this tax, the tax paying citizens will end up spending millions in trying to collect/prosecute/bring to court/imprison all those who boycott this
tax.

fixed that for you.

ei.sdraob

hinault wrote: »

If enough citizens boycott this tax, the government will end up spending millions in trying to collect/prosecute/bring to court/imprison all those who boycott this
tax.

No need to boycott it, just dont pay it

provided you dont go selling your home no one will come after you

meglome

Diarmuid wrote: »

The government was receiving huge amount of (unsustainable) income from various taxes in the bubble years. We still have crap water pipes and they still wasted that income, handing it out left, right and center to vested interested to get themselves re-elected.
Why will this tax be any more wisely spent?

It's a different world now and thankfully a different government. I agree totally that the previous government wasted money on vested interests. The point I'm making is the large chunks of bubble money made it very easy to waste it, too easy. While I wouldn't want to be the one who swears the new taxes will just go to fix what they were raised for, we're broke, so it's a lot more difficult to be wasteful full stop.

murphaph

I, like others, have no problem paying a tax in principle. I have a MASSIVE problem with the waste and ongoing largesse evidenced by the government, politicians in general and public sector.

The government appear to have decided to avoid making cuts to any PS pay (at least on the SW front they will likely cut the "side benefits" like rent allowance, while of course leaving the basic rates alone) and instead have opted to squeeze the general populous for every last penny they can get.

It is truly sickenning. Ireland will rot because of a failure to tackle these things. Bright people will just leave and set up their businesses in a land that doesn't rob them of all their hard earned money, just to hand it over to greedy politicians and overpaid public servants and long term benefit thieves.

Richard Hillman

I dont trust county councils enough to give them extra money. Its a well known fact that they take on stupid projects at the end of the fiscal year to keep their budget up. There is a housing estate across the road from me getting its roads relaid even though it didnt need it. Im against this tax not because of the idea of it, i am against it because i do not trust the county council to spend it without corruption.

meglome

blackdog2 wrote: »

Lots of people saying "Well Ireland is a low tax country etcetc", but the Irish state in all honesty probably offers the lowest level of service I have ever seen. All other countries I have been to offer a far greater level of value for money. Now they are bringing the costs up, while cutting services and charges.

Vote with your feet, leave the godforsaken place. At least then maybe you can live in a nice, safe place. It doesn't look like it will change for the better any time soon.

I dunno there might be a correlation between low tax and poor services. Is it a wonder that countries with the best services also have the highest taxes.

And before anyone eats me I'm not saying our problems are just low taxes, the civil service needs reform badly too.