RTE Radio 1 on 252!

Longwave Listener

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

It is obviously not a major consideration to most advertisers but I would not say that it necessarily has a 0% impact on every advertiser at all times either. Advertisers appreciate useful data to promote their products/services and some might consider it similar to a niche station. Tourism interests like transport carriers, hotels, B&Bs, restaurants, heritage attractions etc; might welcome this unique listenership demographic and a lot who still have strong family links to Ireland and UK.

I bet you are willing to lay money...the question is how much money (one cent!):D

Lw 252 listeners have been portrayed as destitute and even deaf by the main save 252 campaigners , so no i can't see any advertisers being interested

L1011

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

Would you kindly stop second-guessing me especially if you have no verifiable factual data to back up your assumptions as it adds very little credibility to this debate.

Oh, the irony of this statement.

You are the one claiming that "niche" advertisers are advertising on the most expensive radio ad outlet in the country to advertise to an unquantifiable, unmeasured but realistically tiny audience in another country.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Oh, the irony of this statement.

You are the one claiming that "niche" advertisers are advertising on the most expensive radio ad outlet in the country to advertise to an unquantifiable, unmeasured but realistically tiny audience in another country.

he claimed that they could be. not that they definitely are

SPDUB

former legend wrote: »

Re: "announcements". This was posted on the Indo website on Thursday.

http://m.independent.ie/entertainment/radio/rte-defers-closure-of-longwave-service-until-new-year-30668321.html

Seems January 19th is still d-day.

The Indo does its best to stick the boot in on RTE of course, no change there.

That's from October not last Thursday .

It seems someone is feeding Longwave Listener false information since he also posted but quickly deleted that they had called off the closure .

former legend

SPDUB wrote: »

That's from October not last Thursday .

It is dated 20th November. The article goes on to talk about the appointment of the new RTE London editor which only happened on Thursday, 20th November.

Happy to clarify that for you.

Hotblack Desiato

Losty Dublin wrote: »

By over time he means that the BBC have done so over a number of years.

They have done nothing over a number of years.
They have the same number of LW services now as they ever have.
Your statement is nonsense and you should retract it.

198LW remains on but even it's days are numbered as spare valves are seemingly non existent.

That is their claim. If the UK government decided LW was of strategic importance and were willing to fund it as such, that 'obstacle' would magically disappear. The 'spare valves' nonsense is nothing but BBC politicking over funding.

Fuzzy Clam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That is their claim. If the UK government decided LW was of strategic importance and were willing to fund it as such, that 'obstacle' would magically disappear. The 'spare valves' nonsense is nothing but BBC politicking over funding.

And of course you know more about the situation than they do............

Not that it really matters, you've won the argument by using the "IF" word. :rolleyes:

SPDUB

former legend wrote: »

It is dated 20th November. The article goes on to talk about the appointment of the new RTE London editor which only happened on Thursday, 20th November.

Happy to clarify that for you.

Yes it does mention the London editor but it's actually dated 16/10/2014 0230 as can be seen in this pdf I made of the page

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=40206937397487222591

Happy to clarify that for you.

end of the road

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

And of course you know more about the situation than they do............

do you know that he is wrong? by the sounds of it no . and why wouldn't the BBC try whatever to get extra funding.

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Not that it really matters, you've won the argument by using the "IF" word.

he would have won it anyway

bbability

I want to allow this discussion to continue but but please refrain from the snipes at each other otherwise it will result in the sin bin for a few days

Fuzzy Clam

end of the road wrote: »

do you know that he is wrong? by the sounds of it no . and why wouldn't the BBC try whatever to get extra funding.



he would have won it anyway

I will take the word of people who are actually involved over that of a anorak who clearly has no idea.
The British Government have no longer any interest in 198 Khz LW. This has been discussed on other forums.


"he would have won it anyway"

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They have done nothing over a number of years.
They have the same number of LW services now as they ever have.
Your statement is nonsense and you should retract it.



That is their claim. If the UK government decided LW was of strategic importance and were willing to fund it as such, that 'obstacle' would magically disappear. The 'spare valves' nonsense is nothing but BBC politicking over funding.

It would appear that they have done far from nothing.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/oct/09/bbc-radio4-long-wave-goodbye

The valves, at Droitwich in Worcestershire, are so rare that engineers say there are fewer than 10 in the world, and the BBC has been forced to buy up the entire global supply. Each lasts anywhere between one and 10 years, and when one of the last two blows the service will go quiet.

Certainly they are still maintaining 198 LW and expect it to hang on for a few more years. After that, OFCOM have the final call on the future is for 198 in the UK and not the BBC.

http://www.a516digital.com/2014/03/BBC-Radio-4-LW-BBC-5-live-transmitter-work-to-result-in-shutdowns.html

http://www.elexon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/BBC-Letter-John-Mottram-180712.pdf

For those who fancy a read that is slightly more technical...

http://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminiscences/Droitwich/droitwich_calling.htm

Moving back on topic...

http://savertelongwaveradio.com :pac:

Radio_Fan_67

The Germans are switching off their longwave 207 transmitter on new years eve and it's only 6 years old.

burnsey1987

That's right. Donebach at 153kHz is going too on the 31st.

As regards other LW services in Western Europe, I emailed NRK in Norway and RUV in Iceland asking what plans they had for longwave. Neither two have any intentions of ever switching off their transmitters as they provide an indispensable service to fishing fleets and people living in remote areas where FM reception is unreliable.

Radio_Fan_67

Fr Brian D'arcy has now got involved and called for RTE to keep 252 lw opened for 5 more years. What's the point of that ? A 80 year old in london will be an 85 year old in london in 5 years time.

Radio_Fan_67

It was nice to see an archive clip of Mary Ellen o'brien in the atlantic 252 studio on the 1 o clock news report though.

burnsey1987

Getting a lot of pop and crackle on RTE1 on 252 (as well as Algeria cutting across) in Limerick tonight, although RTL1 at 243 is coming in very strong with minimal interference (as LW goes)

Radio_Fan_67

Apparently the irish post newspaper (I thought that paper went under a few years ago?) are saying RTE might do a Uturn and keep 252lw, Won't that be very awkward for RTE ? They have already said that longwave is dead, out of date, a waste of money etc etc and closing lw is nowhere near the most unpopular thing RTE have ever done is it ? I remember a much bigger backlash years ago when they axed Open House with Marty and Mary

L1011

The Post was sold and is still going. Think it missed an issue or two.

It'd see itself as a "lifeline" also, very similar - but dropping rapidly and no longer really viable - audience.

Is no longer registered for circulation figures which is never a good sign of health but they were 18k in 2010

Radio_Fan_67

Well if the irish post story about a reprieve for longwave is true, at least all the lonely isolated irish pensioners in England have Ray D'arcy on longwave to look forward to in the spring.

STB.

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

So what about the Irish in Austrialia, or America?
Using. your "logic", RTE should have terristial transmitters so these people can listen to RTE on the move.
In this age, anybody can listen to RTE, if they so wish, almost anywhere, but its not an entitlement.

Entitlement is being bandied about here as if its a bad thing!

The simple matter is RTE were "allowed" shut down the MW TX's on the basis of LW existing. Now a move has been made to switch off said service in a time when some older people, ex-pats still use it. There are no exact figures for same and no random poll will capture those who listen in clusters or in isolation. Yes it costs 250k to maintain per year, but what is that in the scheme of the overall RTE budget ? Its also being removed despite that said TX being integral to the national emergency plan. We do not even have a established nationwide DAB service, unlike our neighbours. Short range TX's would not fulfill that necessity. Like it or not, RTE HAVE PSB responsibilities. This is what the accountants need to be told.

Fuzzy Clam

STB. wrote: »

Entitlement is being bandied about here as if its a bad thing!

The simple matter is RTE were "allowed" shut down the MW TX's on the basis of LW existing. Now a move has been made to switch off said service in a time when some older people, ex-pats still use it. There are no exact figures for same and no random poll will capture those who listen in clusters or in isolation. Yes it costs 250k to maintain per year, but what is that in the scheme of the overall RTE budget ? Its also being removed despite that said TX being integral to the national emergency plan. We do not even have a established nationwide DAB service, unlike our neighbours. Short range TX's would not fulfill that necessity. Like it or not, RTE HAVE PSB responsibilities. This is what the accountants need to be told.

The "entitlement" comment was made in context.
RTEs PSB responsibility is not affected by shutting down LW.
Have you a source that states that the LW tx is integral to the national emergency plan?

STB.

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

The "entitlement" comment was made in context.
RTEs PSB responsibility is not affected by shutting down LW.
Have you a source that states that the LW tx is integral to the national emergency plan?

Hi Fuzzy, well to put my argument in "context" and so we can address what some people take as reasonable expectations lets look at RTE's stated PSB responsiblities per their current published public service statement (formerly the Charter)

The Broadcasting Act 2009 requires that RTÉ entertain, inform and educate and have the character of a public service. RTÉ’s broadcasting services must be offered free-to-air to the whole community and to Irish communities abroad, in so far as is reasonably practical.

Is 250k a reasonably practical amount to spend on a single TX with a very wide coverage area ? In the overall context of the RTE ins and outs, its not a whole lot.

I dont have a source for the National Emergency Plan, but lets assume there was one.

Which primary and fall back platforms would you think would be most affective in such circumstances?

Dont get me wrong I am all for cost cutting but not at network infrastructure level. Lets start with were the real problems are.

Radio_Fan_67

All this "national emergency plan" talk is more nonsense, 198 isn't even part of the uk national emergency plan anymore due to the lack of lw sets. let alone here where longwave was never advertised to irish listeners until 10 years ago.

L1011

STB. wrote: »

I dont have a source for the National Emergency Plan, but lets assume there was one.

There isn't. The system we had relied on INN to operate and INN are quite long gone to the grave by now.

Any replacement system isn't going to use LW on the basis that most people can't get it - whereas every car radio, most non-Apple mobile phones and next to every domestic radio can get FM.

former legend

This thread is gone bizarrely off-topic, but a national emergency system that relies on a single transmitter would seem to be a high-risk strategy.

Fuzzy Clam

STB. wrote: »

Hi Fuzzy, well to put my argument in "context" and so we can address what some people take as reasonable expectations lets look at RTE's stated PSB responsiblities per their current published public service statement (formerly the Charter)

The Broadcasting Act 2009 requires that RTÉ entertain, inform and educate and have the character of a public service. RTÉ’s broadcasting services must be offered free-to-air to the whole community and to Irish communities abroad, in so far as is reasonably practical.

Is 250k a reasonably practical amount to spend on a single TX with a very wide coverage area ? In the overall context of the RTE ins and outs, its not a whole lot.

I dont have a source for the National Emergency Plan, but lets assume there was one.

Which primary and fall back platforms would you think would be most affective in such circumstances?

Dont get me wrong I am all for cost cutting but not at network infrastructure level. Lets start with were the real problems are.

RTE are providing a service, both at home and abroad in , as you state , as is reasonable practical. Available on the net and freesat.

A single TX with such a small listenership is impractical. Coverage is irrelevant if the listeners are not there.

The primary platform for the national emergency plan is R1 FM. Followed by any/all of the other national stations. There is no need for a fallback. The primary purpose of the national transmission system is broadcast, not an emergency system. We're not living in a Cold war environment any longer. To think we need to to service a LW TX for this eventuality is ludicrous.

As regards your comment about the costs, I agree that RTE should look at other areas. Still, 250K on something that brings in 2000, or maybe a bit more, in listeners is not good economics.

marno21

I wonder how many people listen to, for example, the Lyric FM transmitter for Mitchelstown or the RnaG transmitter in Lahinch? Do RTE get value for money from those TX's?

I thought RTE were meant to be providing a public service to Ireland, not providing service to areas where it's cost effective. A lot of people don't seem to realise how bad FM coverage of the national stations is in certain areas, and that's not even starting on how bad the coverage is on the move, on bigger routes than people would think. Take for example RTE coverage on the N21 from Castleisland to Abbeyfeale. Only Spin Southwest have decent coverage on that part of the route and that's thanks to a relay in Abbeyfeale (something RTE have allocated but never used)

STB.

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

RTE are providing a service, both at home and abroad in , as you state , as is reasonable practical. Available on the net and freesat.

A single TX with such a small listenership is impractical. Coverage is irrelevant if the listeners are not there.

The primary platform for the national emergency plan is R1 FM. Followed by any/all of the other national stations. There is no need for a fallback. The primary purpose of the national transmission system is broadcast, not an emergency system. We're not living in a Cold war environment any longer. To think we need to to service a LW TX for this eventuality is ludicrous.

As regards your comment about the costs, I agree that RTE should look at other areas. Still, 250K on something that brings in 2000, or maybe a bit more, in listeners is not good economics.

"As in reasonably practical". This is actually in the RTE stated public service commitment right after who it is meant to serving. I know and you know it is a handy sentence that it very much open to interpretation (hat tip to the diaspora but only if cash allows). Also the message also seems to be hard luck old people, get with the times (sound familiar from MW times). What is not open to interpretation is that RTE already shut down MW using the LW service as a softener to those upset by the MW shutdown move. Now they want to shut down the LW service. Why ? Is it the 250k PA. You would get half a Ray Darcy for that. Of course, disposing of the assets would also bring money in. Now at what stage does a PSB stop becoming a PSB ? Is it when only things that make money are kept ?

The primary platform for the national emergency was never FM. It was (and currently is) as far as I am aware, "all" platforms, although they have diminshed considerably.

Lets consider FM alone. During storms in recent times, there have been considerable power outages all around the country including at a lot of FM TX sites. Leaving aside the quagmire of feeds to these FM TX's and how they are linked, LW alone reaches further than any one single FM TX in the country for obvious reasons.

Would you agree that any added layer of communication resiliency being made available in the event of a emergency is pragmatic ? What price would you put on it ? Someone earlier mentioned that it would be unwise to depend on one tx in the event of some catastrophic event. My argument (and thats all it is) is that it would unwise to get rid of such of such a high powered transmitter even as a fallback.

The gradual disposal of the network hardware in such a small window of time has not been a very good idea. Sure some say it is outdated but what is the alternative ? We do not have any other Digital radio system nationwide in place. Sometimes we have a happy knack of doing things arseways in this country.

A lot of countries who have disposed of LW, actually have AM, DAB+ and SW in addtion in their FM platform already and still in situ.

Finally, whats the DAB reach like here ? Are they just as disappointing.

Fuzzy Clam

marno21 wrote: »

I wonder how many people listen to, for example, the Lyric FM transmitter for Mitchelstown or the RnaG transmitter in Lahinch? Do RTE get value for money from those TX's?

I thought RTE were meant to be providing a public service to Ireland, not providing service to areas where it's cost effective. A lot of people don't seem to realise how bad FM coverage of the national stations is in certain areas, and that's not even starting on how bad the coverage is on the move, on bigger routes than people would think. Take for example RTE coverage on the N21 from Castleisland to Abbeyfeale. Only Spin Southwest have decent coverage on that part of the route and that's thanks to a relay in Abbeyfeale (something RTE have allocated but never used)

The discussion is about the LW service. You clearly know a little bit about FM transmitters. I presume you know how cheap they are to run in comparison. Also, with RDS, receivers will switch to these transmitters when driving. Few people would think of switching to LW.
Do you think they should switch off the transmitters you mention or are you just picking a random arguement for the sake of it?
If anything, and you already know this, there should be more FM fillers.

This thread is getting daft.