Orange Order

RMD

I don't know to be honest, it would be interesting to see if diverting the route next year had any effect. The same can be said for many Loyalists who have been rioting in recent weeks, do you think they could point out London and stop living in their make-believe UDA / UVF world?

Every year these riots take place in Ardoyne, if the march didn't pass directly by it I'd say there would be a much smaller scale of rioting. I tend to avoid BBC for Northern Irish coverage, they don't exactly seem the "fairest" of reporters, UTV would be my preferred source.

KeithAFC

ColHol wrote: »

They shouldnt react, nobody should, these people thrive on reactions. They should be let march down that street for one day a year and be ignored. I guarantee the novelty would wear off if they werent pissing people off

Yeah, they have only been doing it for hundreds of years, it is going to wear off quickly. Never heard a bigger lot of nonsense in my life.

meathstevie

Although I don't buy into the "let's have a parade in a contentious area and oh, they're having a parade we must have a counter demonstration logic" a lot of parades over the last few days have been held in what could be deemed contentious areas.

And you know what : the vast vast majority of them have passed off very peacefully. Bands have chosen their music wisely ( no overly sectarian tunes ) and protesters have properly managed their demo's. And the distinct lack of a bunch of good for nothing wasters on both sides probably had a very big influence as well.

Of course there were no press cameras in those areas because the Police weren't obliged to wear riot gear and didn't need to fire batton guns or rev the watercannon to spray folk.

It's easy to be offended but it's a damned sight easier to be constructive, agree to disagree on certain points and hammer out an acceptable consensus.

Jaap

RMD wrote: »

So should we let them march contentious routes which we know will lead to large scale rioting resulting in thousands of pounds of damage just so the Order will be happy?

Should we let violence dictate decisions made by the police force or a government appointed body in a democratic society?

Jaap

The Orange Order can have a huge parade in Donegal every year without one small inkling of trouble...yes in southern Ireland...yet when they walk in Northern Ireland some (a minority may I add) nationalists/catholics respond by hurling petrol bombs and bricks.
If you were an outsider you would find that really hard to get your head around.

KeithAFC

Cookie33 wrote: »

If the Orange Order just left the nationalist areas and only parade in the loyalist areas, nationalists would eventually start rioting in loyalist areas too. Also one street could be loyalist and the next nationalist. What do you propose the parade to do? teleport themselves through the nationalist area?

This is a very important point you have made. It is becoming clear as day that people are actually going to Ardoyne when the parade is passed, sneaking (or blatantly walking into ardoyne and actually traveling (possibly miles) to get offended or to just start throwing stones and bottles. So the majority of rioters don’t even seem to be from Ardoyne itself.

If I was in the Orange Order, I would actually decide in the organisation that lets reroute our parade and let’s not do that route for one year. I could guarantee that the same people who travel to Ardoyne would travel to the new route, stock up on stones and bottles and would carry on as normal. Just wait until it passes and cause as much damage as possible.

So it seems completely pointless for me when Republicans talk about walking through Ardoyne (which is factually wrong) and talking about sectarian marches. The same people who travel to Ardoyne would do the exact same thing at a different route.

The Orange Order should call their bluff to be honest. Just listening to a resident from Ardoyne on BBC Ulster and he basically called them rats. Basically said they come into Ardoyne and start rioting, and then leave a pile of destruction behind them and no doubt are sitting in bed as we speak.

But hey, like I said yesterday, they could turn it into a tourist attraction. Which it seemed to be last night with tourists apparently picking up plastic baton rounds and stones and bottles as souvenirs

doc_17

Wonder what would happen in Alabama if the Knights of the KKK gathered to have a march celebrating their history and tradition?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I really don't see what the Orange Orders deal is. They're an organisation which celebrates centuries of sectarianism, and forced occupation of the land of other people and who also have an totally inaccurate reading of their own history (i.e the Battle of the Boyne had the Pope supporting King William). I can't see how any respectable person can defend them.

KeithAFC

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I really don't see what the Orange Orders deal is. They're an organisation which celebrates centuries of sectarianism, and forced occupation of the land of other people and who also have an totally inaccurate reading of their own history (i.e the Battle of the Boyne had the Pope supporting King William). I can't see how any respectable person can defend them.

Which forced occupation is this?

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

Which forced occupation is this?

I would have though you had heard of this/? Maybe not : have a read and get back to me :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

Now, how was this not forced occupation

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

I would have though you had heard of this/? Maybe not : have a read and get back to me :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

Now, how was this not forced occupation

So the plantation of Ulster, in which Protestants from the lowlands of Scotland came to Ulster and took land and to this day, you still see that as an occupation? Am i the only one who thinks that is insane?

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

So the plantation of Ulster, in which Protestants from the lowlands of Scotland came to Ulster and took land and to this day, you still see that as an occupation? Am i the only one who thinks that is insane?

Again keith, yet again you seem to miss the point. The original comment was that the OO march to celebrate forced occupation, that is, the ulster plantation and the legacy after it. Where did ANYONE mention in this thread that forced occupation is in force, it wasnt mentioned anywere .

The march celebrates the forced occupation of ulster

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

So the plantation of Ulster, in which Protestants from the lowlands of Scotland came to Ulster and took land and to this day, you still see that as an occupation? Am i the only one who thinks that is insane?

Again keith, yet again you seem to miss the point. The original comment was that the OO march to celebrate forced occupation, that is, the ulster plantation and the legacy after it. Where did ANYONE mention in this thread that forced occupation is in force, it wasnt mentioned anywere .

The march celebrates the forced occupation of ulster

There is other factors in terms of the celebrations, for some from the Protestant faith, it would play an important role in that too.

The forced occupation remark was not correct. Mary mcaleese must celebrate that occupation too then because she had a BBQ party in Dublin yesterday for.the 12th.

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

There is other factors in terms of the celebrations, for some from the Protestant faith, it would play an important role in that too.

The forced occupation remark was not correct. Mary mcaleese must celebrate that occupation too then because she had a BBQ party in Dublin yesterday for.the 12th.

Yes, but the ORIGINS of the Orange Order was a celebration of forced occupation. Keith you would make a great politican aas you are full of hot air with no substance.
I agree, as i have said with the marches on the grounds of freedom of expression, but this has to be balanced with the right of enjoyment of property, nuisance and so on,
I agree with the garden party, its an inclusive presidency , as she is from the north of ireland she is merely recognising the sizeable unionist population on the island.

Again, it is never a problem in the republic of marching, both the annual unionist garden party and the annual donegal OO march pass by without any real disorder. The biggest problem is from the "majority unionist state" funnily enough, not in the republic.

Again keith, you never seem to answer your question, then realise your mistake, do not admit mistakes and resort to a number of key words and phrases to distract other posters of your original mistake, this is the 2nd time in 2 days which this has happened to you answering me and if it continues i will continuously call you out,

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

There is other factors in terms of the celebrations, for some from the Protestant faith, it would play an important role in that too.

The forced occupation remark was not correct. Mary mcaleese must celebrate that occupation too then because she had a BBQ party in Dublin yesterday for.the 12th.

Yes, but the ORIGINS of the Orange Order was a celebration of forced occupation. Keith you would make a great politican aas you are full of hot air with no substance.
I agree, as i have said with the marches on the grounds of freedom of expression, but this has to be balanced with the right of enjoyment of property, nuisance and so on,
I agree with the garden party, its an inclusive presidency , as she is from the north of ireland she is merely recognising the sizeable unionist population on the island.

Again, it is never a problem in the republic of marching, both the annual unionist garden party and the annual donegal OO march pass by without any real disorder. The biggest problem is from the "majority unionist state" funnily enough, not in the republic.

Again keith, you never seem to answer your question, then realise your mistake, do not admit mistakes and resort to a number of key words and phrases to distract other posters of your original mistake, this is the 2nd time in 2 days which this has happened to you answering me and if it continues i will continuously call you out,

I think you will find that it was King James who fought for the "divine" rights of a king and William of Orange for democracy and the reformed faith. That was the reason the orange order started. In remembrance of William Of Orange and his defence of the Protestant faith.

I'll reply to any replies later, got to run. Interesting discussion anyway

rounding tattenham Corner

Cathal O wrote: »

I would have though you had heard of this/? Maybe not : have a read and get back to me :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

Now, how was this not forced occupation

that's got to be one of the most silly things I've read yet, forced occupation! and what is your solution a million people should be moved back to Scotland?

you must want every white person from america to be moved back to northern Europe and latinos back to Spain\ Italy etc, oh and Australia after all their forced occupation came well after the ulster plantation

Cathal O

rounding tattenham Corner wrote: »

that's got to be one of the most silly things I've read yet, forced occupation! and what is your solution a million people should be moved back to Scotland?

you must want every white person from america to be moved back to northern Europe and latinos back to Spain\ Italy etc, oh and Australia after all their forced occupation came well after the ulster plantation

Where did i suggest anything of the sort of "shipping people back". I am very tolerant of the unionist tradition and if you read the whole thread instead of latching onto the one phrase that you seem to be you would have known this.Even god forbid, keith himself would accept that.
Im calling a spade a spade, where did a government in any of them situations force plantations on anyone. Again i state that i am moving with the times and shipping people back is a hilarious suggestion, but im calling a spade a spade, what else would you call the ulster plantation.
Was it occupation? YES
Was it forced on the people ? YES

irishh_bob

rounding tattenham Corner wrote: »

that's got to be one of the most silly things I've read yet, forced occupation! and what is your solution a million people should be moved back to Scotland?

you must want every white person from america to be moved back to northern Europe and latinos back to Spain\ Italy etc, oh and Australia after all their forced occupation came well after the ulster plantation

americans have a celebration day called thanksgiving which commemorates the history of native americans interaction with the settlers , the orange order celebrate the overthrowl and domination of the natives , ive heard of rubbing it in but after four hundred years , its just plain mean

J Cheever Loophole

The Orange Order has been one of the pillars upon which several generations of institutionalised sectarianism has been built. Many from Ardoyne will have been victims of that - or immediate descendants of victims - and will have not forgotten it either.

Thankfully those days are now more-or-less gone, but it is no surprise that those same residents now take issue with that same organisation walking past / through their area whilst they themselves have their freedom of movement severely restricted to accommodate that. In extreme circumstances this dissafection manifests itself in the lawlessness that we saw last night, and there can be no justification for that.

I always found it ironic that 'the right to walk the Queen's highway', that is trumpeted by Orange Order spokesmen, is itself dependent on denying fellow citizens that same right - a 'right' incidentally that is not enshrined in any law!

A number of years ago, the Bogside Residents Association held a peaceful protest when there was a loyal order parade on Derry's walls. The residents' group stood four deep, in silence, on either side of the street, with their backs to the marchers. I always felt that that image was a very powerful visual symbol of peaceful protest. If others feel the need to protest, I'd love to see them do something similar - a protest would be registered, and the high moral ground would be taken.

steddyeddy

The orange order is a funny one. Not ha ha funny but it is interesting to watch its evolution through the years.

Formed after the defeat of a catholic king by the protestent king billy and that is exactly how the orange order see it, protestent vs catholic. In reality it was billy vs james. Religion had very little to do with it, indeed a lot of billys army was supplied via the pope so in essence the orange order were anti half of king billys army.

The order soon established itself as a sectarian group oppsed to catholics, membership was restriced to those without catholic relatives. Inter marriage between catholics was forbiddon. Now 300 years ago you can understand this ignorance but this is going on today. Intermarriage between catholics is frowned apoun as is having catholic relatives. Some of the younger members have objected to these rules however and I suspect eventually the rules will go the way of the dodo.

To say that orange men represent protestantism is frankly absurd I have protestant family members and am going out with a protestant lady none of them see the orange order in its current form as anything but a hate group.

Another anti catholic organisation also that loved marching through areas where they were not wanted were the kkk. Were the catholics in america as some comments suggested here meant to

"Understand why these chaps feel the way they do"

"respect their culture of marching"

No no one has the respect a culture which preaches hate against them or no one has to understand why the hate so much.

To say that republicans nationalists or catholics hates the orange orders sectarianism is the oo's bigest mistake. The oraganisation has been criticised by people of all races and creeds including protestants. Saying that only catholics hate the oo's supremacist protestant ideology is like saying only catholics and black people hate the KKK. Donald payne an african american congressman after witnesening the oo's attempt to march down a catholic comminty stated

'there are many parallels between Catholics in and the situation the black community faced in the United States.' in an interview with the sunday times.

Regarding reasoning with these people I wouldnt do it not that I think their incapable of it but they are quite unwilling. We have seen here a response to loyalist rioting was met with "Ireland is more secular".Were sectarian killings by the ira was condemend by both sides the sectarian killings by the UVF were met with "gusty spence was a hero to people ect" .The replys wont make sense they will be full of cognitive dissonance (changing the logic to match their feeling). So I wouldnt do it.

Like the kkk the support for sectarianism in the north will die out without the consent of the sectarian people themselves. The orange order in the south has members married to catholics and related to catholics so things are changing there and the less the orange order are willing to comprimise or participate with comprimise the more those and people who think like them will be left in the cold when the real decisions are made.

LordSutch

Those rioting dirtbags have no right to call themselves Nationalists, they are the total dregs of society, parented by the same kind of underclass that see nothing whatsoever wrong with throwing petrol bombs, rocks & fireworks at the police. > I blame the self proclaimed (but not really) Nationalists 100% for the violence, and I think its a disgrace that they then try & blame the marching bands!!!, as Gerry Kelly of SF said last night "the rioters even targeted cars & shops in their own area" (Ardoyne) for example, they are just total dirtbags, sadly they will probably propagate an other generation of dirtbags into this world who see nothing wrong with petrol bombing the police!

Well done to the PSNI for keeping the two sides apart, and sorry to see a number of policemen in hospital after the rioting, its a thankless but necessary job being a policemen up North, and I wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

Those rioting dirtbags have no right to call themselves Nationalists, they are the total dregs of society, parented by the same kind of underclass that see nothing whatsoever wrong with throwing petrol bombs, rocks & fireworks at the police. > I blame the self proclaimed (but not really) Nationalists 100% for the violence, and I think its a disgrace that they then blame the marching bands!!!, as Gerry Kelly said last night "they even target cars & shops in their own areas" (Ardoyne) for example, they are just total dirtbags, sadly they will probably propegate an other generation of dirtbags into this world who see nothing wrong with petrol bombing the police!

Well done to the PSNI for keeping the two sides apart, and sorry to see a number of policemen in hospital after the rioting, its a thankless but necessary job being a policemen up North, and I wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.

and this is to do with the orange order how?

Elliemental

luckyfrank wrote: »

BAN all marchs the whole lot is a load of bollox, nationalist unionist the whole lot

Marching season my arse !!

Great, in theory. However, as I stated in another post, on another thread, banning anything seldom works. Also, with the Loyalists'/Unionists, it will merely feed their victim complex, and possibly incite further, more extreme violence.

The best that can be hoped for is of the popularity of these bigoted parades/institutions wanes. I have noticed, over the last few years, that the crowds around my area (during the 12th) have thinned considerably. Through greater, mutual understanding of the two different factions, this could potentially come to fruition.

Let nature/progress take it's course and hope for the best, in a nut shell.

LordSutch

steddyeddy wrote: »

and this is to do with the orange order how?

Well exactly :rolleyes:
But as you can see from many other posts, take 'page one' for example, there have been countless posts connecting the Nationalist riots in Ardoyne & elsewhere, with the Orange Parades in Northern Ireland over the last twenty four hours, you must have read about it?

dabestman1

the orange order are a bunch of scumbags who terrorise the nationalist community over a victory that is over 320 years ago.They should be thrown in jail and the key thrown away. Problem solved.
PS:How could anyone compare these yob parades to a paddys day parade, idiotic.

Jelle1880

dabestman1 wrote: »

the orange order are a bunch of scumbags who terrorise the nationalist community over a victory that is over 320 years ago.They should be thrown in jail and the key thrown away. Problem solved.
PS:How could anyone compare these yob parades to a paddys day parade, idiotic.

You know any OO members them ?
For every OO member who hates 'dem ****ing fenian bastards' there's 10 who only see their marches as a great day out, celebrating their heritage and culture.

As for the fact that William's army had a lot of Catholics: That doesn't matter.
His victory secured that James would not be able to instate rule in Britain which would see the place thrown back to the ages of old, that's pretty much it.
They don't celebrate him for supposedly fighting the evil catholics from Ireland.

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

Well exactly :rolleyes:
But as you can see from many other posts, take 'page one' for example, there have been countless posts connecting the Nationalist riots in Ardoyne & elsewhere, with the Orange Parades in Northern Ireland over the last twenty four hours, you must have read about it?

Well call these exhibit A your honour.

There have been comdenation againt nationlist rioters by all sides here however among the few touched with cogintive disonance (twisting logic to match ones feelings) there seems to be a unrelenting view that "the other side are entirley in the wrong). This level of uncomprimise is unworthy of a true place in the future of the north or in the struggle for peace and reconcilliation.

Such of those who support the political view of uncomprimise will fail to condemn loyalist rioters (who also attacked police). Those such as above fail to deal with any of the issues people brought up about the orange order reply with "would you look at those natiolist scum" Im glad they got aressted ect while the response to loylsit rioting is "silence".

This type of "debate" has no place in a troubled place like the north.

eg the Orange order is sectarian, response: Im glad nationalists got arrested.

steddyeddy

Elliemental wrote: »

Great, in theory. However, as I stated in another post, on another thread, banning anything seldom works. Also, with the Loyalists'/Unionists, it will merely feed their victim complex, and possibly incite further, more extreme violence.

The best that can be hoped for is of the popularity of these bigoted parades/institutions wanes. I have noticed, over the last few years, that the crowds around my area (during the 12th) have thinned considerably. Through greater, mutual understanding of the two different factions, this could potentially come to fruition.

Let nature/progress take it's course and hope for the best, in a nut shell.

+1 sectarianism doesnt go hand in hand with civilisation the natural route for hate organisations is to gradually die out.

steddyeddy

I lived in america for a few years were catholics are in the minority and always were. The orange order has only two lodges there and indeed had the same problems with marches and subsequent rioting in the 19th century. Several marches went ahead and the orange men were arrested for inciting hatred and rioting. In 1871 after more marching and rioting the orange orders activities were banned for a time.

The KKK were also later arrested for marching and the subsequent rioting that they provoked. Those who dont think the orange order provoke rioting must also agree with kkk supporters assertation that their marchs dont incite rioting.

I would ride myself cos im a sexy man

The point about Rossnowlagh parade is a mute one. It is a small seaside village well out of the way, and the tourism from the parade probably keeps the village going.

I've been told the marchers can sometimes outnumber the villages population by 12-1. The Cavan/Monaghan/Leitrim OO branches march there as well, probably because it isnt welcome in their areas.

I would imagine if this march took place in any urban area in Cavan/Monaghan there would be alot of trouble.