Orange Order

Jelle1880

steddyeddy wrote: »

The above is a sectarian comment.

Because he uses the words 'Roman Catholic' ?

karma_

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Because he uses the words 'Roman Catholic' ?

No, have another try.

junder

karma_ wrote: »

A Left-wing member of the OO, talk about a fish out of water.

Junder, speaking as someone from Derry I have no major problem with the Apprentice Boys, they are not the worst. However, I do have a major issue with members of the security force being associated with these organisations.

Can I ask what your line of thought on this issue is, where for instance would your allegiance lie, for example, were you tasked with preventing an AB parade?

I have an issue with members of the security forces not being allowed to exercise thier democratic right to join non-illegal organisations. Pc Kerr was seen as a good example because of his membership of the gaa, if I was to be murdered tomorrow (which could infect happen) I would be at worse vilified because of my membership of the Abod and a flute band, at best it would be seen as some sort of justification for my death. Moreover I police officer can pass out with an ira medal pinned to his chest and yet I can't join the Police because I have a 36th ulster division tattoo on my upper arm were it would not be seen ( and yes it is a 36th ulster division tattoo, not a uvf one). End of the day I have no issue with security force members joining the lodges or gaa groups or even Hibernian or Forester lodges because I trust that at the end of the day the majorty of them will do thier jobs as do I when I am in uniform.

karma_

junder wrote: »

I have an issue with members of the security forces not being allowed to exercise thier democratic right to join non-illegal organisations. Pc Kerr was seen as a good example because of his membership of the gaa, if I was to be murdered tomorrow (which could infect happen) I would be at worse vilified because of my membership of the Abod and a flute band, at best it would be seen as some sort of justification for my death. Moreover I police officer can pass out with an ira medal pinned to his chest and yet I can't join the Police because I have a 36th ulster division tattoo on my upper arm were it would not be seen ( and yes it is a 36th ulster division tattoo, not a uvf one). End of the day I have no issue with security force members joining the lodges or gaa groups or even Hibernian or Forester lodges because I trust that at the end of the day the majorty of them will do thier jobs as do I when I am in uniform.

PC Kerr is not a good example, primarily because the GAA does not prevent any ethnic or religious group from being a member, a striking difference. I also think it's a very dangerous thing to even bring a sporting organisation into the political sphere.

I completely disagree however with members of the security forces being a member of the other organisations you mention, whether it be the Hibernians or the Orange Order.

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

PC Kerr is not a good example, primarily because the GAA does not prevent any ethnic or religious group from being a member, a striking difference. I also think it's a very dangerous thing to even bring a sporting organisation into the political sphere.

I completely disagree however with members of the security forces being a member of the other organisations you mention, whether it be the Hibernians or the Orange Order.

I think a number of Protestants would disagree with that.

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think a number of Protestants would disagree with that.

At least make an argument as to why they would disagree.

sollar

The GAA is happy to accept any religion. BTW commiserations to Junder, Keith and Karma on the defeat of your home county by Donegal on Sunday. I'm sure Keith and Junder are particularly upset and were glued to the screen on sunday afternoon

Jelle1880

karma_ wrote: »

No, have another try.

I don't see any other possibly sectarian comment in there.

KeithAFC

sollar wrote: »

The GAA is happy to accept any religion. BTW commiserations to Junder, Keith and Karma on the defeat of your home county by Donegal on Sunday. I'm sure Keith and Junder are particularly upset and were glued to the screen on sunday afternoon

I want all GAA teams to lose but such is sport, not everyone can lose, sadly.

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

At least make an argument as to why they would disagree.

Stories about Protestants being hounded out of the GAA because they are Protestants. Basic things like that.

Im sure you could find stories on it from google.

Jelle1880

KeithAFC wrote: »

Stories about Protestants being hounded out of the GAA because they are Protestants. Basic things like that.

Im sure you could find stories on it from google.

Or GAA clubs named after IRA members.

KeithAFC

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Or GAA clubs named after IRA members.

And that too.

karma_

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Or GAA clubs named after IRA members.

And what of those named after Protestants, of which there are many?

The facts remain, and we are dealing in facts here, the GAA is not a sectarian organisation in that it does not discriminate against anyone in regards to their religious or lack of religious beliefs. The same cannot be said of the Orange Order which is built upon a sectarian principle.

Jelle, can I also ask if you have ever been to Northern Ireland?

junder

karma_ wrote: »

PC Kerr is not a good example, primarily because the GAA does not prevent any ethnic or religious group from being a member, a striking difference. I also think it's a very dangerous thing to even bring a sporting organisation into the political sphere.

I completely disagree however with members of the security forces being a member of the other organisations you mention, whether it be the Hibernians or the Orange Order.

To most of us in the loyalist / unionist community the gaa is a political orginization, 'the ira at play' as some call it

karma_

junder wrote: »

To most of us in the loyalist / unionist community the gaa is a political orginization, 'the ira at play' as some call it

Exactly, and this is the very root of the problem. Anything that can be seen as culturally Irish or remotely Catholic is equated with terrorism, and it is a very, very dangerous thing.

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

Exactly, and this is the very root of the problem. Anything that can be seen as culturally Irish or remotely Catholic is equated with terrorism, and it is a very, very dangerous thing.

People in that community don't like or support the GAA. So what? They don't have to. We have our own sports.

LordSutch

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Or GAA clubs named after IRA members.

I know absolutely nothing about the GAA, but is that really true?

junder

karma_ wrote: »

Exactly, and this is the very root of the problem. Anything that can be seen as culturally Irish or remotely Catholic is equated with terrorism, and it is a very, very dangerous thing.

Naming grounds and cups after terrorists does not help, would you be comfortable with the idea of linfeid having a gusty spence cup or renaming Windsor the John mcmicheal stadium, I think not.

junder

LordSutch wrote: »

I know nothingh about the GAA, but is that really true?

In northern Ireland it is true

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

People in that community don't like or support the GAA. So what? They don't have to. We have our own sports.

I have no issue with that at all, I don't play myself, nor am I a member of any club.

This tangent was reached after Junder pointed out the fact that being a member of the GAA did not prevent Ronan Kerr becoming a police officer, whereas a member of the Orange Order cannot.

karma_

junder wrote: »

Naming grounds and cups after terrorists does not help, would you be comfortable with the idea of linfeid having a gusty spence cup or renaming Windsor the John mcmicheal stadium, I think not.

I only know of one, there may be more, but, I am as uncomfortable with that fact as you are.

J Cheever Loophole

Ordinarily, I take only a passing interest in these debates as, being born and bred in the North, I know only too well the futility of trying to make persuasive arguments against firmly entrenched minds.

That said, I felt moved to post, after reading this;

junder wrote: »

As for the lodge that honours Brian Robinson they believe that the person he shot was oc of arydone pira so in thier eyes and the people of the shankill it was justified, I don't know if he was the oc or not but when you live cheek by jowl with people you do tend to know whose who. however this is something you would need to take up with the people of the shankill, as this is what they believe

Over the course of the troubles, labelling innocent victims as members of terrorist organisations was seen as a way that the perpetrators of cold blooded murder legitimised their actions.

The murder of Patrick McKenna was one such example.

The following extract is from the brilliant book, Lost Lives;

'At the funeral Dr Cahal Daly described the victim as a harmless, inoffensive man, who was always ready to do a good turn for anybody. He said Patrick McKenna was yet another innocent Catholic callously murderedby loyalist sectarian killers, and added that it was monstrous to claim that he was a member of the IRA.'

Although Patrick McKenna had been arrested twice by the RUC (according to Lost Lives), he had never been convicted of any terrorist offence, nor subsequently appeared on any IRA roll of honour.

The fact that you have introduced it here, I believe is an attempt to muddy the waters and the reputation of this innocent victim, thus in some way justifying what happened. Bizzarely you then try to distance yourself from this thinking (by asking us to take this up with the people on the Shankill Road that think this), despite the fact you introduced it here, and then subsequently infer that if he was not a member of an illegal organisation, then he knew who was, thus giving the impression that he was fair game anyway.

I thought I'd seen it all, but you were still able to surpass yourself, when you posted the following;

junder wrote: »

if I was to be murdered tomorrow (which could infect happen) I would be at worse vilified because of my membership of the Abod and a flute band, at best it would be seen as some sort of justification for my death.

Tell me - are you aware of the meaning of the word irony?

What you wrote above is outrageous, but I know that won't cost you a second thought.

Chuck Stone

Any taig will do. The raison d'etre of the loyalist murder gangs. Pure, 100% proof, distilled hatred.

junder

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Ordinarily, I take only a passing interest in these debates as, being born and bred in the North, I know only too well the futility of trying to make persuasive arguments against firmly entrenched minds.

That said, I felt moved to post, after reading this;



Over the course of the troubles, labelling innocent victims as members of terrorist organisations was seen as a way that the perpetrators of cold blooded murder legitimised their actions.

The murder of Patrick McKenna was one such example.

The following extract is from the brilliant book, Lost Lives;

'At the funeral Dr Cahal Daly described the victim as a harmless, inoffensive man, who was always ready to do a good turn for anybody. He said Patrick McKenna was yet another innocent Catholic callously murderedby loyalist sectarian killers, and added that it was monstrous to claim that he was a member of the IRA.'

Although Patrick McKenna had been arrested twice by the RUC (according to Lost Lives), he had never been convicted of any terrorist offence, nor subsequently appeared on any IRA roll of honour.

The fact that you have introduced it here, I believe is an attempt to muddy the waters and the reputation of this innocent victim, thus in some way justifying what happened. Bizzarely you then try to distance yourself from this thinking (by asking us to take this up with the people on the Shankill Road that think this), despite the fact you introduced it here, and then subsequently infer that if he was not a member of an illegal organisation, then he knew who was, thus giving the impression that he was fair game anyway.

I thought I'd seen it all, but you were still able to surpass yourself, when you posted the following;



Tell me - are you aware of the meaning of the word irony?

What you wrote above is outrageous, but I know that won't cost you a second thought.

The question was why that perticuler lodge lays a wreath, I answered that question. It is for them to justify thier actions since I am not a member of that lodge or even a member of the orange order. However it does not change the fact that they and quite a few people in the shankill believe that the victim was the oc of arydone brigade. Being outraged by that changes nothing since that is what they believe. They also believe that Brian Robinson was excecuted by the British army while he lay injured in what is regarded as a 'shoot to kill' action. Is this true? Again I don't know but it is what is believed on the shankill road.
And yes many times innocent victims were claimed to be members of organisations when they clearly were not but also there were people shot who were claimed to be innocent victims later turned out to have been active members of paramilitarys, such was the nature of the nasty, dirty conflict we had in northern Ireland

Bottle_of_Smoke

I honestly do think Brian Robinson was shot for political reasons. The republican movement were claiming shoot-to-kill assaults were only performed on republicans, so security forces decided the easiest way to silence that claim was take out a billy boy.

Now I believe junder's point is that the people of that lodge believe that Patrick McKenna was an O/C of the IRA.

I have no doubt he is telling the truth with that claim, but I suspect what's really going on is that Brian Robinson is the only loyalist victim of STK policy, so loyalists in the area really have to put him up on a pedestal as a martyr. That's kind of ruined when it turns out that moments before he was shot, he himself killed an innocent man. So the revisionism starts and they have decided he was an IRA man, because that makes Robinson a hero instead of a sectarian killer.

Its pretty well illustrated in this blog. Notice how the silly bitch refers to McKenna

"On Saturday 2nd Sept 1989 at approx 10am Irish Republican Patrick Mckenna was executed outside the Ardoyne shops

Its simply "Irish Republican" - lovely and vague. If she had a shred of evidence he was an OC in the IRA, or even a member, she'd have PIRA written in there. By referring to him simply as an "Irish Republican" it covers all bases, being a catholic from Ardoyne, chances are he was Irish republican minded, so she hasn't technically said anything wrong.

I do understand the point junder makes, and this post isn't having a go at him, just what I think of the whole BR situation.

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

To most of us in the loyalist / unionist community the gaa is a political orginization, 'the ira at play' as some call it

:O theres 1000000 members of the gaa, are they all ira members? because its an irish game its hated?? there has been many protestant members, same with many religions. its a case of one side hating it because the other side dont

Jelle1880

blahfckingblah wrote: »

:O theres 1000000 members of the gaa, are they all ira members? because its an irish game its hated?? there has been many protestant members, same with many religions. its a case of one side hating it because the other side dont

It's hated because some of their clubs have/had clear links with the IRA.

steddyeddy

junder wrote: »

Firstly I have not justified any murder, you asked me why one particular lodge chooses to remember Brian Robinson and I told you, that lodge, and on the shankill in general (hence why the Brian Robinson parade is so big) believe that the person Brian Robinson targeted was the oc.

No eveidence has emerged since his death that he was a member so I think csi brian robinson's evidence consisted of "hes a catholic". I dont see how this is different to any of the uvfs victims.

of the arydone brigade. I don't any evidence to prove that he was or was not the oc but then I don't live down the shankill. However it's the shankill based lodge that lays the wreath not the orange order, as each lodge has a large degree if autonomy.
You wanted answers, tough if it's not the answers you want to hear

Ah right so that lodge doesnt agree with the rules of the orange order about murderers.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

No eveidence has emerged since his death that he was a member so I think csi brian robinson's evidence consisted of "hes a catholic". I dont see how this is different to any of the uvfs victims.



Ah right so that lodge doesnt agree with the rules of the orange order about murderers.

Some people would say the same thing about Gerry Adams. We all know the story about that one.

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people would say the same thing about Gerry Adams. We all know the story about that one.

Wait. Are you justifying the murder of Patrick McKenna in a roundabout fashion?