Orange Order

CommuterIE

How should the Republic react to the intimidation shown to Nationalists by their pathetic 'uhhh lets march through Nationalist areas to provoke them' mentality... sickening! Scumbags have no reason to walk these routes but to symbolize repression

RMD

It's not so much oppression, Catholics aren't exactly "oppressed" in the North anymore. I'd see it as a more "we can do it so we will, it's our right". Incredibly childish bollox if I say so myself.

luckyfrank

BAN all marchs the whole lot is a load of bollox, nationalist unionist the whole lot

Marching season my arse !!

CommuterIE

RMD wrote: »

It's not so much oppression, Catholics aren't exactly "oppressed" in the North anymore. I'd see it as a more "we can do it so we will, it's our right". Incredibly childish bollox if I say so myself.

They have absolutely no right to march through a Nationalist area with their flutes or flags... what happened tonight is a direct result of the Orange Order being absolute idiotic dickheads

Cathal O

I dont think its the problem of the every day unionist, its the Orange order itself i have a problem with. Its archaic views on modern society are laughable and childish, to such an extent it does not recognise its own partys government body - the parades commission.

The view is that - we have been here for so long, nooone can stop us.
One word - childish

sollar

Without marching and king billy they have no culture to speak of, it revolves around a battle that took place in 1690 and in a place that is now part of a foreign country to them.. the boyne.

KeithAFC

CommuterIE wrote: »

They have absolutely no right to march through a Nationalist area with their flutes or flags... what happened tonight is a direct result of the Orange Order being absolute idiotic dickheads

They didn't march through a nationalist area.

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

They didn't march through a nationalist area.

Can i ask you keith, why do the OO not recognise the parades commission?

CommuterIE

Cathal O wrote: »

Can i ask you keith, why do the OO not recognise the parades commission?

Oh god, I thought he was banned

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

Can i ask you keith, why do the OO not recognise the parades commission?

I don't know. I ain't in the Orange Order. Just giving out the facts that they don't march through Ardoyne.

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't know. I ain't in the Orange Order. Just giving out the facts that they don't march through Ardoyne.

Well as you are very vocal part of the orange/ loyalist community on this site i would have expected you to know one of the main policys of such an organisiation. Apologies

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

Well as you are very vocal part of the orange/ loyalist community on this site i would have expected you to know one of the main policys of such an organisiation. Apologies

I would need to be in the Orange Order to know exactly the problems with the parade commission they have. They obviously have a problem with it. A number of people in the political set up do aswell. So it isn't just the Orange Order.

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would need to be in the Orange Order to know exactly the problems with the parade commission they have. They obviously have a problem with it. A number of people in the political set up do aswell. So it isn't just the Orange Order.

Name a popular party/ organisation that specifically stated that it does not RECOGNISE it, not merely have problems with it.
NAME ONE

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

Name a popular party/ organisation that specifically stated that it does not RECOGNISE it, not merely have problems with it.
NAME ONE

Of course political parties recognise the parades commission but the Orange Order and the actual band scene is bigger and is more powerful than that organisation. That is why it looks weak. The band scene is much bigger than the DUP. So the DUP will always watch what they say. The party could easily end over night.

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

Of course political parties recognise the parades commission but the Orange Order and the actual band scene is bigger and is more powerful than that organisation. That is why it looks weak. The band scene is much bigger than the DUP. So the DUP will always watch what they say. The party could easily end over night.

I said that the OO are the only archaic organisation that doesnt recognise the parades commission, you said that there were others,i asked you to name one ORGANISATION (not just party) and you cant, have i finally won an argument over the infamous keith YAAAAAAASSSSS :cool:

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

I said that the OO are the only archaic organisation that doesnt recognise the parades commission, you said that there were others,i asked you to name one ORGANISATION (not just party) and you cant, have i finally won an argument over the infamous keith YAAAAAAASSSSS :cool:

No. I said there is parties which disagree with certain things the parades commission do. Big difference. The Orange Order disagree with them and don't recognise them but people in the DUP disagree with them too. I didn't say they didn't recognise them.

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

No. I said there is parties which disagree with certain things the parades commission do. Big difference. The Orange Order disagree with them and don't recognise them but people in the DUP disagree with them too. I didn't say they didn't recognise them.

So could you answer me my original question instead of answering a question that you made up by yourself ?
Thank You

RMD

CommuterIE wrote: »

They have absolutely no right to march through a Nationalist area with their flutes or flags... what happened tonight is a direct result of the Orange Order being absolute idiotic dickheads

Unfortunately it happens every year. They're certainly a pack of overly conservative idiots, a progressive mentality is alien to most of it's members. I agree to they have absolutely no right to march by Ardoyne as they're clearly not wanted there, evident by the pretty much annual 12th riots. Whether it be Republican or Loyalist, the marches should be kept to areas where they're wanted and wont cause problems.

sollar

RMD wrote: »

the marches should be kept to areas where they're wanted and wont cause problems.

They wouldn't get their kicks then and would lose interest.

pablomakaveli

There was an article in todays Examiner about the Orange Order and OO members in the South specifically. They're looking to open more Orange Lodges in the south and aspire to parade in Dublin in the coming years.

the guy being interviewed said that because gays and foreign minorities are allowed to parade in Dublin that they should be allowed too. But of course the gay rights march isnt a sectarian one.

I really dont want to see that sectarian organization spread in the Republic.

RMD

sollar wrote: »

They wouldn't get their kicks then and would lose interest.

That's the sad thing about these parades, theres a certain contingent involved on both sides who only want to parade to wind up the other side. Really ruins what could be something good and which wont cause problems.

KeithAFC

RMD wrote: »

That's the sad thing about these parades, theres a certain contingent involved on both sides who only want to parade to wind up the other side. Really ruins what could be something good and which wont cause problems.

What is your point though? The vast vast majority of parades, be it lead by the Orange Order or a normal band parade organised by the bands are good and pass off with no bother. It is no different to many other situations in the world.

Lonesome Boatman

why do they keep marching where there not wanted

march in loyalist areas instead of the same triumphalist nonsense year after year

or do they just enjoy winding nationalists up

Cookie33

If the Orange Order just left the nationalist areas and only parade in the loyalist areas, nationalists would eventually start rioting in loyalist areas too. Also one street could be loyalist and the next nationalist. What do you propose the parade to do? teleport themselves through the nationalist area?

Blackjack

There's a parade in Rosnowlagh every year, on the Saturday before the 12th.
Never any hassle at it, never any major news about it.

The Orange side don't demand to walk down anyone's road, and the Nationalists don't object because, well, there is no reason to - it's not the usual type of Parade that insists on spilling the bile where it's not welcome.

Perhaps if a similar attitude were to be adopted elsewhere, there would be less trouble each July.

On the other hand, many border counties do exceptionally well from the Tourist trade as many from both traditions escape the crazy behaviour that is passed off as "tradition" each July.

Cathal O

Why do the OO not communicate to parties or the commission in charge of such marches. It s my opinion that they do not speak to leading figures in SDLP or SF in troubled areas of marching to help calm violence as they believe they are more of a presence in the face of adversity. No other reason would explain it. They prefer being faced with a hostile opposition to replay king billies 'heroic' win 300 years ago.

Now i can expect the usual reasons of not wanting contact with SF, but both SDLP, independant nationalsits and the Parades commission have also offered talks, but they have been declined, but WHY????

RMD

KeithAFC wrote: »

What is your point though? The vast vast majority of parades, be it lead by the Orange Order or a normal band parade organised by the bands are good and pass off with no bother. It is no different to many other situations in the world.

My point is we both know what will happen when Loyalist marches go by Ardoyne, yet they still do it every year knowing it will lead to rioting. Therefore there's clearly a contingent in these bands who do it just to piss off the Republicans, otherwise they'd change the route.

Jelle1880

The reason (imo) why several Orange marches still go past Nationalist areas is:

1. They have done it for decades, the routes themselves are a part of it.
2. Some of them probably like winding up 'the enemy'
3. A lot of them believe that if they give in now, soon the marches will be gone completely because more and more rules will be applied, limiting their options (as has happened in Glasgow).

RMD

So should we let them march contentious routes which we know will lead to large scale rioting resulting in thousands of pounds of damage just so the Order will be happy?

StupidLikeAFox

CommuterIE wrote: »

How should the Republic react to the intimidation shown to Nationalists by their pathetic 'uhhh lets march through Nationalist areas to provoke them' mentality... sickening! Scumbags have no reason to walk these routes but to symbolize repression

They shouldnt react, nobody should, these people thrive on reactions. They should be let march down that street for one day a year and be ignored. I guarantee the novelty would wear off if they werent pissing people off

Jelle1880

I don't know RMD, do you believe that this will stop the rioting ?
I don't.

Maybe some of those 'Republicans' (I doubt most of them could point out Dublin on a map) could chill the **** out as well, instead of acting tough in their make-believe IRA world.

If you saw the BBC NI coverage you would have seen that the main march passed peacefully and thousands upon thousands of people were having a great day.

RMD

I don't know to be honest, it would be interesting to see if diverting the route next year had any effect. The same can be said for many Loyalists who have been rioting in recent weeks, do you think they could point out London and stop living in their make-believe UDA / UVF world?

Every year these riots take place in Ardoyne, if the march didn't pass directly by it I'd say there would be a much smaller scale of rioting. I tend to avoid BBC for Northern Irish coverage, they don't exactly seem the "fairest" of reporters, UTV would be my preferred source.

KeithAFC

ColHol wrote: »

They shouldnt react, nobody should, these people thrive on reactions. They should be let march down that street for one day a year and be ignored. I guarantee the novelty would wear off if they werent pissing people off

Yeah, they have only been doing it for hundreds of years, it is going to wear off quickly. Never heard a bigger lot of nonsense in my life.

meathstevie

Although I don't buy into the "let's have a parade in a contentious area and oh, they're having a parade we must have a counter demonstration logic" a lot of parades over the last few days have been held in what could be deemed contentious areas.

And you know what : the vast vast majority of them have passed off very peacefully. Bands have chosen their music wisely ( no overly sectarian tunes ) and protesters have properly managed their demo's. And the distinct lack of a bunch of good for nothing wasters on both sides probably had a very big influence as well.

Of course there were no press cameras in those areas because the Police weren't obliged to wear riot gear and didn't need to fire batton guns or rev the watercannon to spray folk.

It's easy to be offended but it's a damned sight easier to be constructive, agree to disagree on certain points and hammer out an acceptable consensus.

Jaap

RMD wrote: »

So should we let them march contentious routes which we know will lead to large scale rioting resulting in thousands of pounds of damage just so the Order will be happy?

Should we let violence dictate decisions made by the police force or a government appointed body in a democratic society?

Jaap

The Orange Order can have a huge parade in Donegal every year without one small inkling of trouble...yes in southern Ireland...yet when they walk in Northern Ireland some (a minority may I add) nationalists/catholics respond by hurling petrol bombs and bricks.
If you were an outsider you would find that really hard to get your head around.

KeithAFC

Cookie33 wrote: »

If the Orange Order just left the nationalist areas and only parade in the loyalist areas, nationalists would eventually start rioting in loyalist areas too. Also one street could be loyalist and the next nationalist. What do you propose the parade to do? teleport themselves through the nationalist area?

This is a very important point you have made. It is becoming clear as day that people are actually going to Ardoyne when the parade is passed, sneaking (or blatantly walking into ardoyne and actually traveling (possibly miles) to get offended or to just start throwing stones and bottles. So the majority of rioters don’t even seem to be from Ardoyne itself.

If I was in the Orange Order, I would actually decide in the organisation that lets reroute our parade and let’s not do that route for one year. I could guarantee that the same people who travel to Ardoyne would travel to the new route, stock up on stones and bottles and would carry on as normal. Just wait until it passes and cause as much damage as possible.

So it seems completely pointless for me when Republicans talk about walking through Ardoyne (which is factually wrong) and talking about sectarian marches. The same people who travel to Ardoyne would do the exact same thing at a different route.

The Orange Order should call their bluff to be honest. Just listening to a resident from Ardoyne on BBC Ulster and he basically called them rats. Basically said they come into Ardoyne and start rioting, and then leave a pile of destruction behind them and no doubt are sitting in bed as we speak.

But hey, like I said yesterday, they could turn it into a tourist attraction. Which it seemed to be last night with tourists apparently picking up plastic baton rounds and stones and bottles as souvenirs

doc_17

Wonder what would happen in Alabama if the Knights of the KKK gathered to have a march celebrating their history and tradition?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I really don't see what the Orange Orders deal is. They're an organisation which celebrates centuries of sectarianism, and forced occupation of the land of other people and who also have an totally inaccurate reading of their own history (i.e the Battle of the Boyne had the Pope supporting King William). I can't see how any respectable person can defend them.

KeithAFC

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I really don't see what the Orange Orders deal is. They're an organisation which celebrates centuries of sectarianism, and forced occupation of the land of other people and who also have an totally inaccurate reading of their own history (i.e the Battle of the Boyne had the Pope supporting King William). I can't see how any respectable person can defend them.

Which forced occupation is this?

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

Which forced occupation is this?

I would have though you had heard of this/? Maybe not : have a read and get back to me :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

Now, how was this not forced occupation

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

I would have though you had heard of this/? Maybe not : have a read and get back to me :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

Now, how was this not forced occupation

So the plantation of Ulster, in which Protestants from the lowlands of Scotland came to Ulster and took land and to this day, you still see that as an occupation? Am i the only one who thinks that is insane?

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

So the plantation of Ulster, in which Protestants from the lowlands of Scotland came to Ulster and took land and to this day, you still see that as an occupation? Am i the only one who thinks that is insane?

Again keith, yet again you seem to miss the point. The original comment was that the OO march to celebrate forced occupation, that is, the ulster plantation and the legacy after it. Where did ANYONE mention in this thread that forced occupation is in force, it wasnt mentioned anywere .

The march celebrates the forced occupation of ulster

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

So the plantation of Ulster, in which Protestants from the lowlands of Scotland came to Ulster and took land and to this day, you still see that as an occupation? Am i the only one who thinks that is insane?

Again keith, yet again you seem to miss the point. The original comment was that the OO march to celebrate forced occupation, that is, the ulster plantation and the legacy after it. Where did ANYONE mention in this thread that forced occupation is in force, it wasnt mentioned anywere .

The march celebrates the forced occupation of ulster

There is other factors in terms of the celebrations, for some from the Protestant faith, it would play an important role in that too.

The forced occupation remark was not correct. Mary mcaleese must celebrate that occupation too then because she had a BBQ party in Dublin yesterday for.the 12th.

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

There is other factors in terms of the celebrations, for some from the Protestant faith, it would play an important role in that too.

The forced occupation remark was not correct. Mary mcaleese must celebrate that occupation too then because she had a BBQ party in Dublin yesterday for.the 12th.

Yes, but the ORIGINS of the Orange Order was a celebration of forced occupation. Keith you would make a great politican aas you are full of hot air with no substance.
I agree, as i have said with the marches on the grounds of freedom of expression, but this has to be balanced with the right of enjoyment of property, nuisance and so on,
I agree with the garden party, its an inclusive presidency , as she is from the north of ireland she is merely recognising the sizeable unionist population on the island.

Again, it is never a problem in the republic of marching, both the annual unionist garden party and the annual donegal OO march pass by without any real disorder. The biggest problem is from the "majority unionist state" funnily enough, not in the republic.

Again keith, you never seem to answer your question, then realise your mistake, do not admit mistakes and resort to a number of key words and phrases to distract other posters of your original mistake, this is the 2nd time in 2 days which this has happened to you answering me and if it continues i will continuously call you out,

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

There is other factors in terms of the celebrations, for some from the Protestant faith, it would play an important role in that too.

The forced occupation remark was not correct. Mary mcaleese must celebrate that occupation too then because she had a BBQ party in Dublin yesterday for.the 12th.

Yes, but the ORIGINS of the Orange Order was a celebration of forced occupation. Keith you would make a great politican aas you are full of hot air with no substance.
I agree, as i have said with the marches on the grounds of freedom of expression, but this has to be balanced with the right of enjoyment of property, nuisance and so on,
I agree with the garden party, its an inclusive presidency , as she is from the north of ireland she is merely recognising the sizeable unionist population on the island.

Again, it is never a problem in the republic of marching, both the annual unionist garden party and the annual donegal OO march pass by without any real disorder. The biggest problem is from the "majority unionist state" funnily enough, not in the republic.

Again keith, you never seem to answer your question, then realise your mistake, do not admit mistakes and resort to a number of key words and phrases to distract other posters of your original mistake, this is the 2nd time in 2 days which this has happened to you answering me and if it continues i will continuously call you out,

I think you will find that it was King James who fought for the "divine" rights of a king and William of Orange for democracy and the reformed faith. That was the reason the orange order started. In remembrance of William Of Orange and his defence of the Protestant faith.

I'll reply to any replies later, got to run. Interesting discussion anyway

rounding tattenham Corner

Cathal O wrote: »

I would have though you had heard of this/? Maybe not : have a read and get back to me :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

Now, how was this not forced occupation

that's got to be one of the most silly things I've read yet, forced occupation! and what is your solution a million people should be moved back to Scotland?

you must want every white person from america to be moved back to northern Europe and latinos back to Spain\ Italy etc, oh and Australia after all their forced occupation came well after the ulster plantation

Cathal O

rounding tattenham Corner wrote: »

that's got to be one of the most silly things I've read yet, forced occupation! and what is your solution a million people should be moved back to Scotland?

you must want every white person from america to be moved back to northern Europe and latinos back to Spain\ Italy etc, oh and Australia after all their forced occupation came well after the ulster plantation

Where did i suggest anything of the sort of "shipping people back". I am very tolerant of the unionist tradition and if you read the whole thread instead of latching onto the one phrase that you seem to be you would have known this.Even god forbid, keith himself would accept that.
Im calling a spade a spade, where did a government in any of them situations force plantations on anyone. Again i state that i am moving with the times and shipping people back is a hilarious suggestion, but im calling a spade a spade, what else would you call the ulster plantation.
Was it occupation? YES
Was it forced on the people ? YES

irishh_bob

rounding tattenham Corner wrote: »

that's got to be one of the most silly things I've read yet, forced occupation! and what is your solution a million people should be moved back to Scotland?

you must want every white person from america to be moved back to northern Europe and latinos back to Spain\ Italy etc, oh and Australia after all their forced occupation came well after the ulster plantation

americans have a celebration day called thanksgiving which commemorates the history of native americans interaction with the settlers , the orange order celebrate the overthrowl and domination of the natives , ive heard of rubbing it in but after four hundred years , its just plain mean

J Cheever Loophole

The Orange Order has been one of the pillars upon which several generations of institutionalised sectarianism has been built. Many from Ardoyne will have been victims of that - or immediate descendants of victims - and will have not forgotten it either.

Thankfully those days are now more-or-less gone, but it is no surprise that those same residents now take issue with that same organisation walking past / through their area whilst they themselves have their freedom of movement severely restricted to accommodate that. In extreme circumstances this dissafection manifests itself in the lawlessness that we saw last night, and there can be no justification for that.

I always found it ironic that 'the right to walk the Queen's highway', that is trumpeted by Orange Order spokesmen, is itself dependent on denying fellow citizens that same right - a 'right' incidentally that is not enshrined in any law!

A number of years ago, the Bogside Residents Association held a peaceful protest when there was a loyal order parade on Derry's walls. The residents' group stood four deep, in silence, on either side of the street, with their backs to the marchers. I always felt that that image was a very powerful visual symbol of peaceful protest. If others feel the need to protest, I'd love to see them do something similar - a protest would be registered, and the high moral ground would be taken.

steddyeddy

The orange order is a funny one. Not ha ha funny but it is interesting to watch its evolution through the years.

Formed after the defeat of a catholic king by the protestent king billy and that is exactly how the orange order see it, protestent vs catholic. In reality it was billy vs james. Religion had very little to do with it, indeed a lot of billys army was supplied via the pope so in essence the orange order were anti half of king billys army.

The order soon established itself as a sectarian group oppsed to catholics, membership was restriced to those without catholic relatives. Inter marriage between catholics was forbiddon. Now 300 years ago you can understand this ignorance but this is going on today. Intermarriage between catholics is frowned apoun as is having catholic relatives. Some of the younger members have objected to these rules however and I suspect eventually the rules will go the way of the dodo.

To say that orange men represent protestantism is frankly absurd I have protestant family members and am going out with a protestant lady none of them see the orange order in its current form as anything but a hate group.

Another anti catholic organisation also that loved marching through areas where they were not wanted were the kkk. Were the catholics in america as some comments suggested here meant to

"Understand why these chaps feel the way they do"

"respect their culture of marching"

No no one has the respect a culture which preaches hate against them or no one has to understand why the hate so much.

To say that republicans nationalists or catholics hates the orange orders sectarianism is the oo's bigest mistake. The oraganisation has been criticised by people of all races and creeds including protestants. Saying that only catholics hate the oo's supremacist protestant ideology is like saying only catholics and black people hate the KKK. Donald payne an african american congressman after witnesening the oo's attempt to march down a catholic comminty stated

'there are many parallels between Catholics in and the situation the black community faced in the United States.' in an interview with the sunday times.

Regarding reasoning with these people I wouldnt do it not that I think their incapable of it but they are quite unwilling. We have seen here a response to loyalist rioting was met with "Ireland is more secular".Were sectarian killings by the ira was condemend by both sides the sectarian killings by the UVF were met with "gusty spence was a hero to people ect" .The replys wont make sense they will be full of cognitive dissonance (changing the logic to match their feeling). So I wouldnt do it.

Like the kkk the support for sectarianism in the north will die out without the consent of the sectarian people themselves. The orange order in the south has members married to catholics and related to catholics so things are changing there and the less the orange order are willing to comprimise or participate with comprimise the more those and people who think like them will be left in the cold when the real decisions are made.