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When atheists go too far

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    #602
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Seachmall wrote: »
    You believe in him. You don't know, therefore there is no reason, or way, to argue in his favor.

    God is the standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned. He's the inspiration for how I live. Therefore of course I'm not going to reject Him or call Him evil because it's an illogical exercise. My standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned comes from Him and is essentially dependant on Him.

    The idea of God being evil is quite honestly disturbing to me, because it is so clearly wrong from my perspective.

    drkpower's nonsense of reject Him or else you are evil is just ridiculous. If he thinks I'm evil sobeit, I know that's not true.


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    #603
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    philologos wrote: »
    God is the standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned. He's the inspiration for how I live. Therefore of course I'm not going to reject Him or call Him evil because it's an illogical exercise. My standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned comes from Him and is essentially dependant on Him.

    You believe in him and I've no issue with that.

    However you have faith in his existence, you don't have knowledge or evidence of it.*

    Have faith, don't try to rely on reason to justify your position because then it's no longer faith; it's a poor attempt at grabbing at straws.
    The idea of God being evil is quite honestly disturbing to me, because it is so clearly wrong from my perspective.
    I'm not trying to argue that he's evil, just that he's composed of illogical rationale.


    *By this I mean objective knowledge or evidence, I'm sure you have personal experiences but none that could convince us or withstand objective analysis.


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    #604
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    My standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned comes from Him and is essentially dependant on Him.
    so you have no free will then...
    philologos wrote: »
    The idea of God being evil is quite honestly disturbing to me, because it is so clearly wrong from my perspective.
    So if a family member was raped or murdered you'd think it was part of God's plan so it must not be wrong that it happened?


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    #605
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I don't hide behind anything. I have no interest in rejecting God because He's right in my opinion. I stand by Him.
    Indeed you do; so, in turn, you believe it is right that billions of good people will and should writhe in agony for eternity merely because they will not or cannot believe in god.

    That is pure evil and if anyone other than a religious believer came out with such a sentiment, they would rightly be a pariah and possibly involuntarily detained for their own and other's safety.
    philologos wrote: »
    If he thinks I'm evil sobeit, I know that's not true. .
    How else would you describe someone who believes that good people should burn for eternity because they cannot or will not believe in god?


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    #606
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Have faith, don't try to rely on reason to justify your position because then it's no longer faith; it's a poor attempt at grabbing at straws.

    Christian faith as far as I see it is actually more reasonable than atheism. That's why I'm a Christian. Many Christians before me and after me will argue (more eloquently) based on reason for the existence of God.

    I'll post as I feel is best and most sensible. You're entitled to think I'm an idiot, depraved, evil, insane, but ultimately I know that I'm none of these things.


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    #607
    dpe
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭dpe


    philologos wrote: »
    God is the standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned. He's the inspiration for how I live. Therefore of course I'm not going to reject Him or call Him evil because it's an illogical exercise. My standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned comes from Him and is essentially dependant on Him.

    The idea of God being evil is quite honestly disturbing to me, because it is so clearly wrong from my perspective.

    drkpower's nonsense of reject Him or else you are evil is just ridiculous. If he thinks I'm evil sobeit, I know that's not true.

    No, the Bible "is the standard of good and evil as far as you're concerned". Not God, because he didn't write it, and even if God existed, everything you know about God is through the filter of the men who wrote that book, (and all the men who subsequently translated and revised it), so in actual fact your moral framework is just about as divine as the most ardent atheist's (in other words, not divine in the slightest). Unless of course you're saying God speaks to you personally?


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    #608
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    God is the standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned. He's the inspiration for how I live. Therefore of course I'm not going to reject Him or call Him evil because it's an illogical exercise. My standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned comes from Him and is essentially dependant on Him.

    The idea of God being evil is quite honestly disturbing to me, because it is so clearly wrong from my perspective.
    This is exactly why blind allegiance to anything is dangerous, be that a god or a charismatic leader.
    We have an inbuilt sense of right and wrong when we blindly ignore this, sh*t happens people get hurt and suffering is caused.
    The Judeo-Christian god is clearly flawed, be that his obsession with being loved or his creating beings he must know will never love him (or else he isn't omniscient) and then punishing them for his own action of creating them.
    To follow such a flawed being, believing everything he does or says is good, is utter madness.


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    #609
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    Christian faith as far as I see it is actually more reasonable than atheism.

    There's a magical guy that lives in the clouds and if I worship him he'll reward me with ever lasting happiness but if I don't I'll suffer forever so I'll fear him every day and think about him before every judgement or action I make. VS There's no god, I'm happy to live me life day by day.

    More reasonable?


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    #610
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    philologos wrote: »
    You're entitled to think I'm an idiot, depraved, evil, insane, but ultimately I know that I'm none of these things.

    I don't think you're any of these things. I think you rationalize evidence and make logical exceptions to support your beliefs. That doesn't make you stupid or whatever, it just makes you human. We all do it, not a single exception in this thread, sometimes we just have to accept that we do it.


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    #611
    Mark200
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    philologos wrote: »
    God is the standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned. He's the inspiration for how I live. Therefore of course I'm not going to reject Him or call Him evil because it's an illogical exercise. My standard of good and evil as far as I'm concerned comes from Him and is essentially dependant on Him.

    The idea of God being evil is quite honestly disturbing to me, because it is so clearly wrong from my perspective.

    drkpower's nonsense of reject Him or else you are evil is just ridiculous. If he thinks I'm evil sobeit, I know that's not true.



    So how do you know whether your god is good or evil?


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    #612
    johnmcdnl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭johnmcdnl


    philologos wrote: »
    Christian faith as far as I see it is actually more reasonable than atheism. That's why I'm a Christian. Many Christians before me and after me will argue (more eloquently) based on reason for the existence of God.

    I'll post as I feel is best and most sensible. You're entitled to think I'm an idiot, depraved, evil, insane, but ultimately I know that I'm none of these things.

    why don't you believe in Zeus or some Roman gods or pagan gods ... why don't you follow the teachings of Islam or Buddhism...

    what part of Christianity makes it stand out from every other religion that has existed since time began... besides of course the fact your parents were Christians and told you all you belief today...

    if all these other gods and such are fake gods or are wrong... then what about the Christian god makes it real...

    how are you so sure your right... I'm sure there are a lot of Muslims out there who are just as convinced there right about god as you are... how are you so sure they're wrong...


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    #613
    Mindme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Mindme


    Mark200 wrote: »
    So how do you know whether your god is good or evil?


    Here we are on a planet liable to Volcanic eruptions, Earthquakes, Tsunamis and the guy rested on the Seventh day!!!


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    #614
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭optogirl


    dpe wrote: »
    No, the Bible "is the standard of good and evil as far as you're concerned". Not God, because he didn't write it, and even if God existed, everything you know about God is through the filter of the men who wrote that book, (and all the men who subsequently translated and revised it), so in actual fact your moral framework is just about as divine as the most ardent atheist's (in other words, not divine in the slightest). Unless of course you're saying God speaks to you personally?


    This is what surprises me so much about people who take the words of the bible (whichever version their church purports to be the correct one) as real . I mean even if, by some major stretch of the imagination, the original texts were written by people who knew Jesus, they have been translated and interpreted so many times (from ancient language that would be difficult to interpret) that at this stage they can't resemble anything like the original texts. A massive game of chinese whispers where each religion takes what they want and states that that is the truth.


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    #615
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Seachmall wrote: »
    I don't think you're any of these things. I think you rationalize evidence and make logical exceptions to support your beliefs. That doesn't make you stupid or whatever, it just makes you human. We all do it, not a single exception in this thread, sometimes we just have to accept that we do it.

    It is not philologos' belief that puts him beyond the pale. I don't agree with the conclusion he comes to (that God exists and what God will do with non believers). I think he's mistaken, but thats all.

    It’s his own view that good people who don't believe in God should be punished for eternity simply for not believing that is disgusting. He can believe that its God's will, that's one thing - but he agrees with it, that's entirely his responsibility and he deserves condemnation for holding such a depraved view.


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    #616
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    POINTBREAK wrote: »
    I didn't read that, but surely its OK to say that some views are indeed idiotic?
    Apparently the OP thinks this is going too far.


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    #617
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    Mindme wrote: »
    Here we are on a planet liable to Volcanic eruptions, Earthquakes, Tsunamis and the guy rested on the Seventh day!!!


    Yes, indeed, an all-powerful being who has always existed, for an infinite length of time, then it puts in six days doing a bit of creating and needs to rest.:) Knackered, no doubt!

    And, according to the book of fairy tales you call the bible, that same being created the sun and the moon only on the fourth day. So how did it figure out when days 1-3 began and ended? Oh, silly me, it is omniscient, of course.

    A lot of people take the bible as though it were a single coherent document that is of verified provenance. In reality, it is almost certainly a compilation of numerous stories, written by a great number of authors, some based loosely on actual events - such as a major flood - accounts of which were passed down orally and embellished every step of the way for many generations and centuries until someone put them to paper in the era of writing, and others pure fiction - some of it good, on a par with some of the better works of science fiction. :rolleyes:It is probably the most censored and spun document in the history of the world and those who take it completely literally would not be any more absurd if they took the Beano or the Dandy as their source of knowledge about the world and history and lived accordingly.

    After all, Biffo the talking bear is slightly more plausible than a talking snake.:rolleyes:


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    #618
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    Yes, indeed, an all-powerful being who has always existed, for an infinite length of time, then it puts in six days doing a bit of creating and needs to rest.:) Knackered, no doubt!

    And, according to the book of fairy tales you call the bible, that same being created the sun and the moon only on the fourth day. So how did it figure out when days 1-3 began and ended? Oh, silly me, it is omniscient, of course.

    A lot of people take the bible as though it were a single coherent document that is of verified provenance. In reality, it is almost certainly a compilation of numerous stories, written by a great number of authors, some based loosely on actual events - such as a major flood - accounts of which were passed down orally for many generations and centuries until someone put them to paper in the era of writing, and others pure fiction - some of it good, on a par with some of the better works of science fiction. :rolleyes:It is probably the most censored and spun documents in the history of the world and those who take it completely literally would not be any more absurd if they took the Beano or the Dandy as their source of knowledge about the world and history and lived accordingly.

    After all, Biffo the talking bear is slightly more plausible than a talking snake.:rolleyes:

    I have to say that the vitriol eminating from you is really offensive. However, I believe, I'm fairly content, I respect your views and how you hold them dear to you.

    You're obviously well educated. To sink to insults like you do is, quite frankly, very puzzling.

    Mind if I ask if you're married with kids? And if so have you sent them to a school with a Catholic ethos?


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    #619
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Apparently the OP thinks this is going too far.

    well at least thats all that happens when athiests go too far. cant see them suicide bombing the christian reading room on georges street


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    #620
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    I have to say that the vitriol eminating from you is really offensive.

    Well frankly it's offensive to say someone is going to burn in hell or be forever unhappy and persecuted because they don't believe in YOUR god.


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    #621
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    Yes, indeed, an all-powerful being who has always existed, for an infinite length of time, then it puts in six days doing a bit of creating and needs to rest.:) Knackered, no doubt!

    And, according to the book of fairy tales you call the bible, that same being created the sun and the moon only on the fourth day. So how did it figure out when days 1-3 began and ended? Oh, silly me, it is omniscient, of course.

    A lot of people take the bible as though it were a single coherent document that is of verified provenance. In reality, it is almost certainly a compilation of numerous stories, written by a great number of authors, some based loosely on actual events - such as a major flood - accounts of which were passed down orally and embellished every step of the way for many generations and centuries until someone put them to paper in the era of writing, and others pure fiction - some of it good, on a par with some of the better works of science fiction. :rolleyes:It is probably the most censored and spun document in the history of the world and those who take it completely literally would not be any more absurd if they took the Beano or the Dandy as their source of knowledge about the world and history and lived accordingly.

    After all, Biffo the talking bear is slightly more plausible than a talking snake.:rolleyes:
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    I have to say that the vitriol eminating from you is really offensive

    and this weeks prize for shameless overeaction goes to...


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    #622
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    .


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    #623
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Freddie59 wrote: »

    You're obviously well educated. To sink to insults like you do is, quite frankly, very puzzling.

    And what does this sinking to insults say of you?
    Mind if I ask if you're married with kids? And if so have you sent them to a school with a Catholic ethos?

    hardly your business but my guess would be that like a hell of a lot of us there would be little or no choice as the RCC has a death grip on our education system


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    #624
    dpe
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭dpe


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    I have to say that the vitriol eminating from you is really offensive. However, I believe, I'm fairly content, I respect your views and how you hold them dear to you.

    You're obviously well educated. To sink to insults like you do is, quite frankly, very puzzling.

    Mind if I ask if you're married with kids? And if so have you sent them to a school with a Catholic ethos?

    So sarcasm is now vitriol is it? Personally I thought the post was a perfectly reasonable set of observations and questions, asked with an element of humour (he didn't once say, "you're all a bunch of feckin' idiots" for instance), but of course the simple act of questioning the logic of scripture is an attack isn't it?

    Why the question about his kids' school?


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    #625
    Chairman Meow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭Chairman Meow


    So Atheists, if youre all so smug and know everything, riddle me this batman, how was the universe created? Nothing exploded and created everything? Yeah, sounds about as plausible as an omnipotent being creating everything in 7 days.

    Theists = 1
    Atheists = 0


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    #626
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Chairman Meow wrote: »
    So Atheists, if youre all so smug and know everything...
    Atheists don't know everything; we are all the same in this except we're happy to admit it.

    Chairman Meow wrote: »
    Nothing exploded and created everything? Yeah, sounds about as plausible as an omnipotent being creating everything in 7 days.



    Theists = 1

    Atheists = 0

    I put that as a scoreless draw.


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    #627
    copeyhagen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,528 ✭✭✭copeyhagen


    i love these threads.

    the church is a joke, particularly in ireland.


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    #628
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Chairman Meow wrote: »
    Nothing exploded and created everything?


    Um, no. A quick Wikipedia search will show you the theory which does not involve nothing exploding.


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    #629
    Chairman Meow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭Chairman Meow


    dvpower wrote: »
    Atheists don't know everything; we are all the same in this except we're happy to admit it.


    Really, cause the smug sense of self satisfaction coming out of the atheists in this thread is enough to knock out an elephant

    theists = 2
    atheists = 0


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    #630
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Chairman Meow wrote: »
    Really, cause the smug sense of self satisfaction coming out of the atheists in this thread is enough to knock out an elephant

    theists = 2
    atheists = 0

    I seriously don't know whether to laugh or cry at your scoring. Rating your own posts - awesome man, just awesome.


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    #631
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Chairman Meow wrote: »
    So Atheists, if youre all so smug and know everything, riddle me this batman, how was the universe created? Nothing exploded and created everything? Yeah, sounds about as plausible as an omnipotent being creating everything in 7 days.

    Theists = 1
    Atheists = 0

    This kids is known as an 'I dont understand science therefore God exists' arguement


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