Openly Anti-porn - reprint of letter

Wibbs

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Eh, I'd have to disagree with you there Wibbs.

Disagree all ya like ED, but I didn't say that and that's a bannin right there.

I certainly wouldn't be and haven't been happy with ANY size penis and I know plenty of women who feel the same but wouldn't say it out loud for fear of hurting the feelinsgs of men. I think it's one of the biggest sexual fallacys (excuse the pun ) out there. That women don't care about the size of a man's penis. It's certainly something I take into account when sleeping with a man and particularly now as things are not as, eh, tight down there as before.

Oh I agree 100%. "Size doesn't matter" is a bit of a fallacy for many women. What my contention would be is that for most women, most penis sizes around the average work if they're into the guy. Some may want slightly* larger than average. Certainly far more than want smaller than average anyway. It would depend on how the individual gets off too. If they functionally get off more on intercourse rather than foreplay for example. I would still reckon there are more "size queens" among men when it comes to breast size preference though and more variability the other way too. Few women would want the penis equivalent of AA breasts.

Count Duckula wrote: »

I do think that porn and its prevalence amongst young males who are sexually developing is leading to a belief and a desire for larger-chested women that would not have happened say thirty years ago. Young men, who are now learning what sex is about almost exclusively from porn are seeing nothing but larger-chested women, and this is influencing their desire in the long run. They come to expect and find themselves attracted to women with larger chests, and they simply don't find women with "average" chests or smaller as attractive. They're so used to seeing these women that they come to expect it as normal, and anything else is disappointingly small. Having grown up seeing only one shape of woman (that of a large bust) influencing their development, everything else is seen as abnormal and not as good.

Maybe or go back 24 thousand years... The Venus of Willendorf http://www.proprofs.com/flashcards/upload/q3469314.jpg NSFW. I know she's stone aged but the lass is pushing loads of bewb buttons The desire for larger breasts goes quite deep. There has always been some ideal of feminine beauty and breast size and it usually favoured the larger(not always). Now she's an exaggeration, not unlike porn actresses and pneumatic starlets, so maybe they're our equivalent today in many ways? The difference is of course that we can exaggerate the exaggeration in real women and still it looks "natural". The above neolithic lady could be achievable with lots of food. Indeed easier to achieve than a 5'9 size six with EE breasts of today. I wonder did the skinny or normal sized women of her culture have feelings of insecurity when looking at her?

Porn does of course have some effect CD. As does the media in general. The striving for excessive thinness a good example and yes large silicone monsters would come into that, but in both cases it would be my humble that these preferences have their root in more basic triggers.



* we're talking inches here, not feet, whereas there's a huge diff in physical size between an AA breast and an EE.

Ambersky

Origionally posted by Parker Kent
Surely it is reasonable to say that the younger pair of breasts were obvious?

Origionally posted by Eve Dublin
drooping boobs generally happens after 20 years (if not older).

If you look at the images in the link I put up you will see a wide variety of breasts, some very definitely hanging, some not, on women in their 20s and younger who havent yet had any children.

Have a look at the images, read their stories and look at the ages.
Be honest. Would you have been able to guess the ages of the women in the photos just by guessing?

There are several pages of images, click on the numbers at the base if you want to see more.

http://www.007b.com/breast_gallery.php NSFW

parker kent

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Eh, I'd have to disagree with you there Wibbs. I certainly wouldn't be and haven't been happy with ANY size penis and I know plenty of women who feel the same but wouldn't say it out loud for fear of hurting the feelinsgs of men. I think it's one of the biggest sexual fallacys (excuse the pun ) out there. That women don't care about the size of a man's penis. It's certainly something I take into account when sleeping with a man and particularly now as things are not as, eh, tight down there as before.

I don't think Wibbs or myself are saying all women think like that, just that the amount of men worried about penis size is probably greater than the amount of women who have issues with penis size. In other words, men make a bigger issue of it than is necessary.

Plus we are not saying that women would be happy with any penis size (I did say within reason) but that you probably have a reasonably generous wiggle room (that sounds dirtier than I intend :pac:). So whilst some women have an ideal size in mind, they'd be perfectly happy with something a bit smaller or bigger. I know the reverse would be true about breasts with myself. If I were asked to give my ideal sizem I'd say a 34B, but I've liked girls ranging from A to E cups at various times.

Plus as always, there will be individual preferences.

parker kent

Ambersky wrote: »

If you look at the images in the link I put up you will see a wide variety of breasts, some very definitely hanging, some not, on women in their 20s and younger who havent yet had any children.

Have a look at the images, read their stories and look at the ages.
Be honest. Would you have been able to guess the ages of the women in the photos just by guessing?

There are several pages of images, click on the numbers at the base if you want to see more.

http://www.007b.com/breast_gallery.php NSFW

I think the site is skewed as most of the girls are young (under 30), but when I started guessing I had a decent success rate.

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that it is easy to guess the exact age, but it is possible to separate them into young and old. Particularly in terms of the context I made that quote. The teens in the programme were presented with boobs of every age and the younger pair would have stood out in comparison to those of the much older women. Given the selection made available to the teens, they would have found it easy to separate the women as they were pretty diverse in terms of age. My idea would be much more similar to the above site. Some girls of 25 have fresher, younger looking boobs than girls of 18 and that is what I was suggesting earlier. Show them how normal it is to have a very diverse set of bodies within the same age group.

Wibbs

[ODD]Here's one very odd thing that just occurred to me reading bits of this thread. Mostly about breasts and especially full pert ones rather than empty sagging ones being the sexual and cultural preference for humans. Bear with me ... Earlier I noted that humans are alone in apes having full breasts at all times. The only time an ape has full breasts is when she approaching birth or is breastfeeding her baby. The rest of the time she would have "saggy" breasts. Now as the ladies will know breastfeeding can act as quite a strong contraceptive http://www.babycentre.co.uk/baby/breastfeeding/contraceptionexpert/ up to 98% effective with "perfect use". That's higher than many over the counter contraceptives. Males of all primate species(and others) are primarily attracted to females who are giving off fertile signals. Yet human males are attracted to a state of a part of the body that signals the woman is either already pregnant, about to give birth or soon after, more concerned with her baby and most odd of all functionally infertile? ehhh.... If we followed other apes the page 3 girl wouldn't interest us in the slightest. That's just hit me with a whole pile of WTF? :eek: [/ODD]

Eve_Dublin

Wibbs wrote: »

What my contention would be is that for most women, most penis sizes around the average work if they're into the guy. Some may want slightly* larger than average. Certainly far more than want smaller than average anyway. It would depend on how the individual gets off too. If they functionally get off more on intercourse rather than foreplay for example. I would still reckon there are more "size queens" among men when it comes to breast size preference though and more variability the other way too. Few women would want the penis equivalent of AA breasts.

parker kent wrote: »

I don't think Wibbs or myself are saying all women think like that, just that the amount of men worried about penis size is probably greater than the amount of women who have issues with penis size. In other words, men make a bigger issue of it than is necessary.

Plus we are not saying that women would be happy with any penis size (I did say within reason) but that you probably have a reasonably generous wiggle room (that sounds dirtier than I intend :pac:). So whilst some women have an ideal size in mind, they'd be perfectly happy with something a bit smaller or bigger. I know the reverse would be true about breasts with myself. If I were asked to give my ideal sizem I'd say a 34B, but I've liked girls ranging from A to E cups at various times.

Plus as always, there will be individual preferences.

No no, I know that. Just correcting the "fallacy" (again, sorry for that...wink wink) that all women would be happy with ANY size. But I misread what Wibbs wrote (it's the heat), he did say within reason and that would be right. I hear that women don't have any preference at all when it came to penis size but men would have a preference for boob size a fair bit and annoys me a little howsome people believe that men must be wrapped up in cotton wool and can't handle the truth about this whereas we're kind of expected just to accept it....or get a boob job. But I typed before I read properly.

Eve_Dublin

Ambersky wrote: »

If you look at the images in the link I put up you will see a wide variety of breasts, some very definitely hanging, some not, on women in their 20s and younger who havent yet had any children.

Have a look at the images, read their stories and look at the ages.
Be honest. Would you have been able to guess the ages of the women in the photos just by guessing?

There are several pages of images, click on the numbers at the base if you want to see more.

http://www.007b.com/breast_gallery.php NSFW

Yes these are the breasts of young women but still not the same age as those teenagers in the video (they're were about 15,16,17 yes?). The women in the channel 4 video were varied in age. Honestly? I couldn't guess the age of the girls in that link you sent me but I wasn't shocked when I read the ages either. It seems as if most of the girls on that web page are over 20 (when drooping can start) and many have problems with their weight as they said themselves or have had problems with weight and lost weight suddenly because of eating disorders etc.

There's a good few sets of breasts on that link of stills that I would choose over the fakes in the video, for sure and if they were included in the video, it might have been different (I didn't choose the fakes as my fave anyway).

The only point I'm making is that I'm aware that boobs come in all shapes and sizes - I had my own pair back then too to feel insecure about and was conscious that one was bigger than the other until I realised how common it was- but to stick a pair of false breasts on what looks like a digitally enhanced, professional photo among breasts of women of varying ages and making their imperfections more obvious taken without camera trickery is not a fair test.

I'm not sure how much of it has to do with porn though. I think it's a lack of exposure to breasts generally at that age, ironically enough. If there wasn't such a taboo about it we got to see them out in the open a bit more (no idea how that could happen in Ireland though), then you wouldn't have girls thinking one boob bigger than the other, or some drooping or some hair on the nipple makes them freaks of nature. This website that you posted is great and I wish it was around in my day.

parker kent

Count Duckula wrote: »

I do think that porn and its prevalence amongst young males who are sexually developing is leading to a belief and a desire for larger-chested women that would not have happened say thirty years ago. Young men, who are now learning what sex is about almost exclusively from porn are seeing nothing but larger-chested women, and this is influencing their desire in the long run. They come to expect and find themselves attracted to women with larger chests, and they simply don't find women with "average" chests or smaller as attractive. They're so used to seeing these women that they come to expect it as normal, and anything else is disappointingly small. Having grown up seeing only one shape of woman (that of a large bust) influencing their development, everything else is seen as abnormal and not as good.

I disagree with a few points here:

- Haven't boobs got bigger on average in that time period? So those men are reflecting a desire for what is around them. Much like how men in 14th Century England like a high forehead.

- There are not just big boobs in porn. That is just wrong

- They haven't grown up seeing just large boobs. Apart from the fact there are more than big boobs in porn, there are boobs of every size on TV, movies, music etc. There are lots of examples of world famous beauties with small breasts who teenagers will see such as Keira Knightly, Natalie Portman, Shakira etc.

- Then more importantly, they will see people around them with different boob sizes. When I was a teenager, I was more concerned about girls my own age followed by teachers, friends' sisters (and mothers :pac:) etc. Now I know I was not seeing all of the above bare breasted, but nonetheless porn breasts were not as big an influence as those around me. I though my English teacher was the hottest creature alive, porn stars "perfect" boobs were not really a concern. A boob in the hand is worth two in the bush if you will :P:pac:

I'm only 25, so my experiences are not that different to teens now.

Eve_Dublin

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe or go back 24 thousand years... The Venus of Willendorf http://www.proprofs.com/flashcards/upload/q3469314.jpg NSFW. I know she's stone aged but the lass is pushing loads of bewb buttons The desire for larger breasts goes quite deep. There has always been some ideal of feminine beauty and breast size and it usually favoured the larger(not always). Now she's an exaggeration, not unlike porn actresses and pneumatic starlets, so maybe they're our equivalent today in many ways? The difference is of course that we can exaggerate the exaggeration in real women and still it looks "natural". The above neolithic lady could be achievable with lots of food. Indeed easier to achieve than a 5'9 size six with EE breasts of today. I wonder did the skinny or normal sized women of her culture have feelings of insecurity when looking at her?

Porn does of course have some effect CD. As does the media in general. The striving for excessive thinness a good example and yes large silicone monsters would come into that, but in both cases it would be my humble that these preferences have their root in more basic triggers..

I think porn must have some effect on the proportions women desire nowadays. That neolithic lady (hubba hubba) is also a larger lady as well...she has some weight on her bones so it would follow that she would have larger breasts. I have friends who are teeny tiny who complain about their breast size but to me it's obvious they'd have small boobs in proportion to their size. Here in Spain women are smaller so the average boob size is quite a bit smaller than Ireland as ladies are bigger on average in Ireland. I'd have larger than average boobs for Spain because I'm about 3 sizes bigger than the average lady here. The Latin women in the Latin American community here would be larger on average and would place more emphasis on flaunting their boobs as they'd be desired more in their culture (from my experience over there) just like Ireland.

Small breasts seem to be accepted here and even considered more desirable than large ones among men (mostly young men under 35) as women are smaller overall but from my humble observations, that's changing. I was sitting having a beer with a friend yesterday afternoon and I counted 5 tiny women with boob jobs walking by in one hour (I'm good at spotting them now at this stage)...Spain has the highest rate of plastic surgury in Europe...the acceptance that a small woman will have small boobs generally is diminishing and I can imagine that must be an side-effect of the porn industry. Whaddya reckon?

Wibbs

Maybe. Having had two long term Spanish exes and some experience of the culture I'd agree with a lot of that ED. One was a D cup and was taunted a lot at school for her bewbs. She was thin too so it made them stand out, but size wise not even on the radar in Ireland. The second one was not so large chested but with both, their friends were all tiny framed by Irish standards as you noticed. One of her mates was known as gordita(fatty but nicer) but was barely a size 12 if that*. Italian women are similarly small framed. I would think that the pron/starlet thing is gaining pace. That's long been the case in Italy, where Italian TV(the very worst/best/tackiest on the world ) has had a long love affair with big bewbed if skinny women. Ditto for the Latin Americans(depending on cultural background). Given that large breasts and skinny are a rare enough combo I'm not surprised women in those cultures are going for the Bewbs in a Bag to go (tm)option.



*That's due to change though. Spanish children are now the most obese in the EU.

parker kent

I hadn't thought too much about Spain, Italy and such countries. Would the influence there be partly due to outside influences being more influential then previously in those countries? I wouldn't point the finger at porn, more at everything in general.

I did date a Polish girl and she was absolutely tiny in terms of her waist and boobs in comparison to the average Irish girl. But that does support the notion the breast size has increased in the UK, Ireland and the USA in the past 50 years.

Although Italy does have a weird fascination with tacky shows hosted by women with implants. If people sometimes get carried away and say we have soft-porn on regular TV shows here, they'd faint watching some Italian shows. When I say Italy, I should probably say Silvio Berlusconi given he owns nearly all the channels!

I am actually trying to think of different European boob sizes now and possible cultural influences...perfect thesis idea :pac:

Eve_Dublin

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe. Having had two long term Spanish exes and some experience of the culture I'd agree with a lot of that ED. One was a D cup and was taunted a lot at school for her bewbs. She was thin too so it made them stand out, but size wise not even on the radar in Ireland. The second one was not so large chested but with both, their friends were all tiny framed by Irish standards as you noticed. One of her mates was known as gordita(fatty but nicer) but was barely a size 12 if that*. Italian women are similarly small framed. I would think that the pron/starlet thing is gaining pace. That's long been the case in Italy, where Italian TV(the very worst/best/tackiest on the world ) has had a long love affair with big bewbed if skinny women. Ditto for the Latin Americans(depending on cultural background). Given that large breasts and skinny are a rare enough combo I'm not surprised women in those cultures are going for the Bewbs in a Bag to go (tm)option.



*That's due to change though. Spanish children are now the most obese in the EU.

Yes indeed there are naturally large-chested tiny ladies but as you said, they're rare. I'd be interested to know when and why it became so desirable. Even back in the day with Hollywood starlets like Marlyn Monroe, the women were bigger and their boobs were in proportion while still maintaining that hour glass figure. I understand the appeal of the hourglass but now it's become so exaggerated some women are caricatures of themselves. How could something so exaggerated become appealing to a lot of men? If a man got a penis enlargement and displayed his cartoon-sized penis for a lady, more than likely she'd run a mile as it would be terrifying in real life yet a lot of men get turned on by women with cartoon proportions. How does porn affect that the biology like that in such a short space of time??? Surely evolution of what's desirable takes a bit longer than that, no? So many questions and I have to go to bed....I'd be interested in hearing what you think though.

Eve_Dublin

parker kent wrote: »

! I am actually trying to think of different European boob sizes now and possible cultural influences...perfect thesis idea :pac:

Indeed it would. I spend 4 hours a day travelling by Metro and I spend a lot of time gawking at people and pondering these types of questions. The Spanish are a fierce interesting bunch to observe as they're such a contrast to the Irish, at least by European standards.

Dudess

I'd have thought ample boobs would be popular, porn or no porn.

Stheno

parker kent wrote: »

Although Italy does have a weird fascination with tacky shows hosted by women with implants. If people sometimes get carried away and say we have soft-porn on regular TV shows here, they'd faint watching some Italian shows. When I say Italy, I should probably say Silvio Berlusconi given he owns nearly all the channels!

I will never forget spending Christmas in Rome with my then boyfriend and his mother, the tv seemed to just churn out endless programmes featuring women with large boobs, fake or otherwise.

That was when I was 22, might have put me off porn lol

parker kent

parker kent wrote: »

Would the influence there be partly due to outside influences being more influential then previously in those countries?

How many times can you say influence in one sentence? :pac:

I don't think porn is really the dominant force for the rise of the "perfect" body shape. Sure some celebrities and porn stars have comedic proportions, but I see the true influence being in the pervasive rise of the perfect body. The desire to get a celebrity body is much more attainable in the last 20-30 years for women as women as equality slowly happens. Not needing to be matriarchs leaves women with the twin problems of having the freedom and expectation to be fit and healthy.

So that leads to certain people getting into better and better shape through each generation. Diet and natural selection often favours the rise of bigger breasts. Then that combined with better diets and exercise regimes leads to bigger boobs and smaller waists.

Edit: I didn't really explain the equality point. Basically women in general have greater personal freedom now. Then couple that with changed life routines, it gives greater opportunity to concern yourself with other issues like fitness. It has risen slowly from 1950s sexbombs on playing cards to Jane Fonda fitness DVDs and up to modern spinning classes.

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Yes indeed there are naturally large-chested tiny ladies but as you said, they're rare. I'd be interested to know when and why it became so desirable. Even back in the day with Hollywood starlets like Marlyn Monroe, the women were bigger and their boobs were in proportion while still maintaining that hour glass figure. I understand the appeal of the hourglass but now it's become so exaggerated some women are caricatures of themselves. How could something so exaggerated become appealing to a lot of men? If a man got a penis enlargement and displayed his cartoon-sized penis for a lady, more than likely she'd run a mile as it would be terrifying in real life yet a lot of men get turned on by women with cartoon proportions. How does porn affect that the biology like that in such a short space of time??? Surely evolution of what's desirable takes a bit longer than that, no? So many questions and I have to go to bed....I'd be interested in hearing what you think though.

If you look at the history of art, you might notice that it was the artists who decided what was beautiful, and convinced the viewers to attain those qualities themselves or to look for them in women.

I dont equate talking about porn with talking about boobs so this thread is confusing me a little bit. Boobs and naked women are hanging in museums all over the world and are not considered pornography, nor are the images of the satyrs with their five foot long erections [at least I dont think they are classified as such]. While art often distorts as much as it represents [just take a Picasso for a random example of distortion-although he claims he distorts in order to tell the truth, back in the day when people believed in the truth], we are now in an age where people can distort themselves via prosthetics or plastic surgery so that the art form doesnt have to do much distortion, exceptions being of course body make up, lighting, airbrushing, and painted on six packs, etc. The ideals have shifted, but this same dynamic has been going on for ages.

parker kent

Speaking of art, I think I can use it to better explain my post. The type of girls Eve mentions have always been around as is seen in art (even allowing for distorted images or artistic licence), they just have a better diet and fitness regime.

Stheno

parker kent wrote: »

How many times can you say influence in one sentence? :pac:

Lots in your case

I see the true influence being in the pervasive rise of the perfect body. The desire to get a celebrity body is much more attainable in the last 20-30 years for women as women as equality slowly happens. Not needing to be matriarchs leaves women with the twin problems of having the freedom and expectation to be fit and healthy.

Oooh not sure I'd agree with that, one of the biggest "celeb news items" that you see are those speculating on how Victoria/Heidi etc regained their perfect body 2.3 minutes after birth, putting huge pressure on women to do so themselves if they buy into it.

So that leads to certain people getting into better and better shape through each generation. Diet and natural selection often favours the rise of bigger breasts. Then that combined with better diets and exercise regimes leads to bigger boobs and smaller waists

Nope the celebrity/perfect body pursuit in that context leads to mad fad diets, unnecessary surgery, and obsessive control imo.

Edit: I didn't really explain the equality point. Basically women in general have greater personal freedom now. Then couple that with changed life routines, it gives greater opportunity to concern yourself with other issues like fitness. It has risen slowly from 1950s sexbombs on playing cards to Jane Fonda fitness DVDs and up to modern spinning classes.

I don't agree from two perspectives.

Firstly the whole motherhood/celebrity body point that I've raised above.
Secondly in terms of equality in work, which I percieve that I have. Rather than the workforce adapting to me, I've adapted to the demands of a male workforce, and regularly work away from home, work evenings and weekends, and if anything have less time to devote to diet/fitness due to the demands of my work. Now yes in terms of personal freedom I was free to pursue that path, but it has essentially restricted other areas of my life.

Gym? What gym after a 13 hour day by the time I get home, need to prep/work that evening, eat some sort of nutrition, then sleep before I get up to repeat all over again?

Doesn't happen all the time, but it happens occasionally and has enough of an influence that it impacts on my personal freedom to choose as above.

Now you can argue I need a work life balance *yawn* but pretty much everyone male or female in my profession bemoans the lack of time they have due to work demands.

Eve_Dublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

If you look at the history of art, you might notice that it was the artists who decided what was beautiful, and convinced the viewers to attain those qualities themselves or to look for them in women.

I dont equate talking about porn with talking about boobs so this thread is confusing me a little bit. Boobs and naked women are hanging in museums all over the world and are not considered pornography, nor are the images of the satyrs with their five foot long erections [at least I dont think they are classified as such]. While art often distorts as much as it represents [just take a Picasso for a random example of distortion-although he claims he distorts in order to tell the truth, back in the day when people believed in the truth], we are now in an age where people can distort themselves via prosthetics or plastic surgery so that the art form doesnt have to do much distortion, exceptions being of course body make up, lighting, airbrushing, and painted on six packs, etc. The ideals have shifted, but this same dynamic has been going on for ages.

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself properly here. I don't mean large boobs generally or even the display of boobs (as you said, boobs displayed can simply be art) but the proportions...the tiny waist and massive boobs...a few steps beyond the hour glass shape where they're cartoon-like. We have the means to distort our bodies in ways that were only dispicted in art or porn i.e. fantasy but now fantasy has become a reality and many, many women want the cartoon proportions and many men in reality desire that look.

You mentioned above that art dictates what is desirable and beautiful...but art is art and cartoons are cartoons...pornstars look like exaggerations of themselves; like cartoons. It seems absurd to me...like, when will it end??

Stheno

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

It seems absurd to me...like, when will it end??

as in when will we see the end of the likes of Jordan making a living of a tiny figure with disproportionately large breasts? And an acceptance that that is an ideal to aim for?

Eve_Dublin

parker kent wrote: »

Speaking of art, I think I can use it to better explain my post. The type of girls Eve mentions have always been around as is seen in art (even allowing for distorted images or artistic licence), they just have a better diet and fitness regime.

i.e. they have weight on them and would thus have larger boobs. I'm talking about skinny women with no body fat with massive boobs. Impossible (or very, very hard to find) without cosmetic surgery. How does something so fake looking become desirable?

Eve_Dublin

Stheno wrote: »

as in when will we see the end of the likes of Jordan making a living of a tiny figure with disproportionately large breasts? And an acceptance that that is an ideal to aim for?

That and also the distortion of natural proportions. How cartoon-like can some women become when it comes to the point that those men think it's a step too far? How did humans become attracted to plastic in the first place? How does that work??

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

You mentioned above that art dictates what is desirable and beautiful...but art is art and cartoons are cartoons...pornstars look like exaggerations of themselves; like cartoons. It seems absurd to me...like, when will it end??

I use the term art very broadly, so I would include both porn and cartoons as art, anything that is man made, artifice, artificiality, not natural, outside of nature.

I agree they look like cartoons, Jessica Rabbit. But porn is an art form, it is not 'high art' but yeah, it's art and the easier it is to distribute the more of an influence it will have. If it had mainstream influence and was on at the same time as Friends as as on as many channels, as many women would be getting boob jobs as they did the Aniston haircut. Monkey see, monkey do. Life imitates art.

After being pregnant, I could not understand for the life of me why anyone would volunteer to have enormous boobs. They are a huge pain in the ass [oops, mixing metaphors... but you get me..]

But apparantly 70s porn made a big come back because people wanted to see more natural looking bodies.

Stheno

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

i.e. they have weight on them and would thus have larger boobs. I'm talking about skinny women with no body fat with massive boobs. Impossible (or very, very hard to find) without cosmetic surgery. How does something so fake looking become desirable?

How massive are massive boobs though? Is the likes of jordan what you are referring to? I know a fair few slim women (size eight to ten) with large boobs, i.e. e cup, and they dress to minimise the whole "first thing you see about me is my boobs" impression that the contrast between slim body and big boobs can give.

Is it when you go beyond that ability to minimise the impact of them?

parker kent

Stheno wrote: »

Oooh not sure I'd agree with that, one of the biggest "celeb news items" that you see are those speculating on how Victoria/Heidi etc regained their perfect body 2.3 minutes after birth, putting huge pressure on women to do so themselves if they buy into it.

I think you missed my point. I said that women are left "with the twin problems of having the freedom and expectation to be fit and healthy". So there is more time to be fit and healthy which is good, but far greater expectation which is not so good. Which leads to the above pressure. I thought I was clearer than I probably was.

Nope the celebrity/perfect body pursuit in that context leads to mad fad diets, unnecessary surgery, and obsessive control imo.

Are they not casualties of a general trend towards healthiness? Not everybody is on a fad diet, getting needless surgery or OCD. I think what you mention is a fair point, but it is an unwanted side effect. With every improvement in life there seems to come a negative.

But in general, I think as I said in that point, diet and better fitness will lead to more people with big boobs/narrow waists. People with the potential to have that shape always existed, there just was not the widespread good health and diet that we now have in the West. I know some people gorge on abundant food or never exercise and then there are those that you refer to above, but in general there are more people leading healthier lives nowadays. So you will see more women with "perfect" figures.

Firstly the whole motherhood/celebrity body point that I've raised above.
Secondly in terms of equality in work, which I percieve that I have. Rather than the workforce adapting to me, I've adapted to the demands of a male workforce, and regularly work away from home, work evenings and weekends, and if anything have less time to devote to diet/fitness due to the demands of my work. Now yes in terms of personal freedom I was free to pursue that path, but it has essentially restricted other areas of my life.

Gym? What gym after a 13 hour day by the time I get home, need to prep/work that evening, eat some sort of nutrition, then sleep before I get up to repeat all over again?

Doesn't happen all the time, but it happens occasionally and has enough of an influence that it impacts on my personal freedom to choose as above.

Now you can argue I need a work life balance *yawn* but pretty much everyone male or female in my profession bemoans the lack of time they have due to work demands.

Remember that I was comparing women of nowadays to those of say, 100 years ago. Surely you'd accept more women are free to get fit nowadays than then? Your personal circumstances may not allow it, but not everybody works 13 hour days. Go to any gym any morning, afternoon or evening and there will be women in there. Ditto sports clubs, teams etc. There just are greater opportunities for the average woman to reach peak fitness now.

In terms of equality, it may not be perfect, but it is better. Although my point mainly centred on women having the freedom to plan their own lives, whereas previously they were simply a mother. You may have issues with the modern western world in terms of equality, but it is better than one your great grandparents lived in.

Eve_Dublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

I use the term art very broadly, so I would include both porn and cartoons as art, anything that is man made, artifice, artificiality, not natural, outside of nature.

I agree they look like cartoons, Jessica Rabbit. But porn is an art form, it is not 'high art' but yeah, it's art and the easier it is to distribute the more of an influence it will have. If it had mainstream influence and was on at the same time as Friends as as on as many channels, as many women would be getting boob jobs as they did the Aniston haircut. Monkey see, monkey do. Life imitates art.

After being pregnant, I could not understand for the life of me why anyone would volunteer to have enormous boobs. They are a huge pain in the ass [oops, mixing metaphors... but you get me..]

But apparantly 70s porn made a big come back because people wanted to see more natural looking bodies.

It's all very interesting. How easily influenced desirability is just by changing the direction of this "art". I thought what men desire is more primal and instinctive but you can what was desirable has changed through the ages but never so dramatically and as quickly as in the last, say, 80 years.

parker kent

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

i.e. they have weight on them and would thus have larger boobs. I'm talking about skinny women with no body fat with massive boobs. Impossible (or very, very hard to find) without cosmetic surgery. How does something so fake looking become desirable?

I don't think that is impossible or else we have different interpretations of larger boobs. Lots of girls are slim and have big boobs. Now they are not 10 a penny, but they are more common than before.

metrovelvet

parker kent wrote: »

I think you missed my point. I said that women are left "with the twin problems of having the freedom and expectation to be fit and healthy". So there is more time to be fit and healthy which is good, but far greater expectation which is not so good. Which leads to the above pressure. I thought I was clearer than I probably was.


Are they not casualties of a general trend towards healthiness? Not everybody is on a fad diet, getting needless surgery or OCD. I think what you mention is a fair point, but it is an unwanted side effect. With every improvement in life there seems to come a negative.

But in general, I think as I said in that point, diet and better fitness will lead to more people with big boobs/narrow waists. People with the potential to have that shape always existed, there just was not the widespread good health and diet that we now have in the West. I know some people gorge on abundant food or never exercise and then there are those that you refer to above, but in general there are more people leading healthier lives nowadays. So you will see more women with "perfect" figures.



Remember that I was comparing women of nowadays to those of say, 100 years ago. Surely you'd accept more women are free to get fit nowadays than then? Your personal circumstances may not allow it, but not everybody works 13 hour days. Go to any gym any morning, afternoon or evening and there will be women in there. Ditto sports clubs, teams etc. There just are greater opportunities for the average woman to reach peak fitness now.

In terms of equality, it may not be perfect, but it is better. Although my point mainly centred on women having the freedom to plan their own lives, whereas previously they were simply a mother. You may have issues with the modern western world in terms of equality, but it is better than one your great grandparents lived in.

PK - Think for a minute. Before the inventions of modern technologies, the car, the washing machine, home delivery, the dishwasher, the hoover, etc etc... people got a lot more excersize.

Ickle Magoo

The proportions have been around as long as breasts have been deemed sexual and desirable as well...

Have a look at the lady on the left of this pic from the kama sutra temple built in 10th-12th century...

http://www.uniquestuff.net/images/kamasutra_temple/Khajuraho2.jpg