Openly Anti-porn - reprint of letter

Count Duckula

I don't really get this. You can't legislate for other people's tastes. If porn is making their tastes more extreme and less palatable, that's their business. If someone doesn't like it that the person they are with is emulating or at least influenced by porn then it's their responsibility to say they're not doing it.

A woman has the right to tell a man to get stuffed if he wants to finish on her face, of course she does. He, however, has the right to want to. She should not be standing there telling him that porn has warped his views and he is totally outrageous - she just leaves. He'll struggle enough to find a sexual partner that he'll eventually come to compromise.

No one has any right to tell others what they can and can't find arousing or erotic; all they can do is make sure they don't indulge in it themselves.

BengaLover

She isnt really saying everyone should be anti - porn, but she is personally standing up and shouting that SHE feels this way; as she has every right to do so.
I would be interested in her responses to some of these replies.
IMHO;
Porn has often been linked to a range of harmful outcomes/attitudes. Some suggest a connection between pornography and rape as well as other forms of violence against women and children. Serial killer Ted Bundy admits that had a “strong appetite for violent pornography.” He says: “This condition is not immediately seen by the individual or identified as a serious problem. . . . But this interest becomes geared towards matters of a sexual nature that involve violence. I cannot emphasize enough the gradual development of this. It is not short-term.”


Rather than showing sex as a beautiful and intimate expression of love, porn often demeans and distorts the sexual act. Casual and perverted sex are shown as exciting and desirable. Personal gratification with little or no regard for the other person is highlighted.
Women, men, and children are put across as objects that exist only for sexual gratification. “Beauty is measured by proportion of body parts, shaping unrealistic expectations,” says one report. “Depicting women as anonymous, ever-wanting/waiting, empty sex toys for men, stripping and exposing their bodies for monetary gain and entertainment cannot possibly translate into a message that can exist in harmony with equality, dignity and humanity,”
People who watch porn regularly could want more explicit and deviant material, even push their partners into bizarre sexual activities, reducing their own capacity to express real affection...

Porn can also turn into a terrible addiction and destroy relationships and leave the viewer increasingly isolating themselves.

Sorry for airing my views on this, but hey, I did agree with how that letter writer felt.

Ickle Magoo

BengaLover wrote: »

Casual and perverted sex are shown as exciting and desirable.

But who are you to make the judgement that sex/sex acts are perverted or that they shouldn't be viewed as exciting and desirable, or are bizarre?

I don't find the plastic porn any kind of turn on and while I think everyone is free to state what kind of porn does/doesn't do it for them I don't think anyone has the right to start moralising about what is or isn't good/appropriate/fun sex for other people.

I'm with Count Duckula, if it doesn't do it for you (generic) then don't do it. I grew up drooling over Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp - did it mean I was unable to form a relationship with a "normal" man, no. 'Cos like the majority of people, I can separate fantasy from reality.

NB I'm also fairly certain that sociopathic mass murderers pre-date modern pornography.

boomkatalog

optogirl wrote: »

As a young woman I am sad that it is likely that the men I have relationships with will have had their first sexual experiences through printed or online pornographic material, and that I feel I have little choice but to accept their use of porn as a fact of life.

Had a guilty giggle at this because, well, who's first sexual experience is particularly wonderful? :pac: If it wasn't a solo act, it was probably an awkward fumble, maybe drunk, probably regrettable, but certainly not going to be the romantic disney moment anyone expects

How is it, that during intimate moments I think or say things which feel like implanted thoughts and words, which are removed from any authentic personal erotic experience?

This confuses me somewhat. So, if she says "you're making me so wet" it's not because she's aroused, it's because she heard it in a porno once? People have been around a long time, it's all been said and done before. I don't think reitterating statements from porn is any different from reitterating statements from romantic movies like "you complete me" or other such overused phrases.

I am angry that the world condones men’s use of porn as inevitable.

Women use porn too. And couples often use porn together. The target audience may be men for the most part but they're certainly not the only users.

I am angry that this view of women bleeds into how we are treated and judged daily, how the men in our lives see us. I am angry that men say they can compartmentalise it, ‘it’s just fantasy’, its not real.

I don't feel that I'm mistreated or judged by my boyfriend if he watches a porn where the women are treated a certain way. Nor do I feel expected to act the same way as the women in the movies. I highly doubt men actually expect their partners to behave like rampant pornstars.

I am disgusted and frightened when I am intimate with men and I hear them say things that I’m pretty sure are empty repetitions of things they have come to think they find sexy, because they should, because these bitches like to get choked, because I want you to **** me harder.

Frightened? Like people have been saying, choice of words here is a little worrying and it does sound like the writer has some issues of her own regarding sexuality and possibly feeling vulnerable with men. Bitches like to be choked? That type of porn in which women are possibly 'degraded' or dominated by men is just one type of porn, not all. And again, I highly doubt men expect their own partners to tolerate the same things the women in these movies do. Often people will watch porn about fantasies that they don't expect to live out in real life, like women who like anal (from conversations with my friends I gather such women are rare!), threesomes or this dominating porn the writer speaks of. I didn't think asking to be fcuked harder was very out there The writer doesn't speak for all women saying we don't want this!

I used to think that the best approach to my intimate life was ‘no politics in the bedroom’. I figured you like what you like and that’s ok. Human sexuality is a complicated and wonderful thing.

+1

What saddens me now is that I cannot shake the feeling that a lot of what I enjoy has been insidiously implanted in my brain by a society that tells me ....that I do not deserve to ask for love and respect, because I am a pretty object here for consumption. The validation and approval that comes from being a sex object is empty, but its hard to shake the conditioning that tells me that as a woman that is all I am good for.

They sex portrayed in most porn is nothing to do with making love. IMO there's fcuking, and there's making love. Most porn is about fcuking. The writer, I think, refers to making love as her "mundane sexual fantasy". There's a big difference between the two. Of course you can fcuk someone you love without the romance, but porn is never going to represnt love making because as actors, they're not going to be in love.

I want to be valued for so much more than my body, and yet I sometimes ‘jokingly’ think that if worst came to worst, I could always turn to sex work. I am a very privileged and educated young woman, and yet I often cant but think that in terms of economic value my body is the best thing I have to offer. This is awful, and if I could think these things in my position, it is no surprise that so many women feel the need to turn to sex work.

Again, very worrying. I have never, and will never, consider sex as a form of income, nor do I know any women who would, no matter what their economic circumstance!

Because if you are not with the female chauvinist pigs, you sure as hell are a crap modern woman.

Huh? The female chauvinist pigs? Is she referring to women who are pro-porn??

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

gargleblaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_Chauvinist_Pigs

As someone else said a few posts ago, the key to improving things is more education, as I said before. You can't ban something like this because it will only be driven underground and the nasty stuff is already nasty enough.

I just went looking for examples of the different ways that men and women talk about each other, and it about made me sick. Just google wizard's sleeve, fat chick, etc. It's really not hard to find.

LegacyUser

Going un-reg for this because, even though I support everyone's right to use porn, I believe in keeping my sex life private.

I never saw the attraction to porn and had the cliche view of "if you use porn your sex life must not be fullfilling." I put it down to my ignorance of the porn industry and lack of sexual experience.

I've been with my boyfriend for 5 years and we've always had a great sexlife. In the last few years we started getting bolder and experiementing more and talking openly about our fantasties. I suppose we just got to the stage were we were comfortable enough to say exactly what we wanted and not feel judged.

One thing he introduced me to is porn. I went with it because I love him and I wanted to support his desires as he did mine. Having enjoyed porn with a partner and learning that it's not all big breasts, bad words and fedishes, i'd happily support everyones right to use it. It brought our sexlife to a new level and brought us much closer together.

I understand being warey of it if your not familiar, it's a big media and there's so many different types (some you'll like, some you'll hate) it can be overwhelming. I spoke out against it out of my own ignorance. porn is not a bad thing, it does not tear couples apart, give people unrealisic expectations of sex (well maybe sometimes!) or brainwash people.

Porn abuse, like anything else is a completly seperate issue (just like the odd drink is harmless enough, but alchohism is damaging).

Dudess

I really think the writer of the letter is only referring to the aggressive stuff, not all porn.

boomkatalog

Dudess wrote: »

I really think the writer of the letter is only referring to the aggressive stuff, not all porn.

I don't think she has distinguished that not all porn is aggressive tbh.

Dudess

Well she does only make reference to the nastier stuff. Stuff like "**** me harder" etc is tame I agree, but it is a feature of the big studio, cumming-in-the-eyes stuff.

It really doesn't look like she's referring to e.g. Kamasutra type material.

coffee_cake

Dudess wrote: »

Well she does only make reference to the nastier stuff. Stuff like "**** me harder" etc is tame I agree, but it is a feature of the big studio, cumming-in-the-eyes stuff.

Making reference is a bit misleading here since she's admitted she doesn't have a clue about it anyway. It sounds more like "anything I dont like [and some of the stuff I do but then shy away from] is porn so I don't like porn"

sunflower27

Times have totally changed... when I was 14 or so, all anyone was interested in was having their first 'snog' (and I am not middle-aged yet!)

The internet is out there now and young people are going to obviously have access to it. It isn't going to go away.

Tbh, I'm glad I grew up when I did. There is enough pressure on young people today anyway without throwing the whole 'what's expected of them sexually' in the mix and unfortunately I think more young women and men are going to see what goes on re porn as the 'norm' and wanting to fit in/not feel like a prude means they will do it

As for older people - if you don't like it, don't watch it. No-one is forcing anyone.

K-9

sunflower27 wrote: »

As for older people - if you don't like it, don't watch it. No-one is forcing anyone.

What do you define as older?

Parents have to look at it to get an idea of what it is they are giving advice on to their children?

Ambersky

I really like this television series, Channel 4s the Sex Education Vs Pornography and The Sex Education Show Stop Pimping Our kids.
They make it clear they are not anti sex they are anti the porn industry and what they believe it does particularly to the perceptions and expectations of young people.
I think its worth looking at porn as an industry as distinct from an appreciation of erotica.

http://sexperienceuk.channel4.com/

http://media2.sexperience.mintdigital.com/files/media/0003/1185/s2_ep1_img_260x190.jpg?1278325793 - NSFW

Sexualisation of the high street

Sex sells. The porn industry alone is worth £1billion a year and it hasn't taken long for the mainstream retail industry to jump on the sexual liberation bandwagon. Anna investigates the sexualisation of Britain's high street and finds considerably more than she'd bargained for in amongst her grocery shop

What porn doesn’t tell you:
Us Brits are known for being pretty uptight when it comes to talking about sex, and yet Britain is also one of the fastest growing markets for internet pornography.
And it seems this has caused all sorts of concerns and misconceptions about the kind of sex we think we should be having, how often and who with.
So, Sexperience is here to help you discover the truth behind real life sex and why porn has nothing to do with it.

Acacia

xsiborg wrote: »

the simple fact of the matter is that this is not the case, and most young girls while they may feel pressured by the media and society to look and behave a certain way in their teenage years, most of them have enough intelligence to want to have succesful careers, lives, motherhood...

Just a word on this... it's not really about having "intelligence" to want to have a good career, etc. The enormous pressure young women have on them to be hot, sexy and skinny but heavens no, never a 'slut' means that they grow up to have a range of emotional and self-esteem problems problems, despite having good careers or whatever else may outwardly show that they are successful.

I'm speaking from my own experience on this point. I know a lot of my friends to be intelligent and successful in their careers, college, etc. Yet they are extremely insecure around their own looks and sexuality. Why? Because in my opinion, they're told that no matter how successful they are, ultimately their sexuality is their greatest asset. It's quite subtle, but it's a notion that exists nonetheless. And it's not just that they have to look a certain way. They have to be sexually attractive and liberal, but expressing their own desires i.e. being 'slutty' is a no-go area.

However, I have to say I'm reluctant to blame porn for this. Being a user of it myself, I think it would be rather hypocritical. I'd say porn is a symptom of a wider societal problem. I don't think people watching other people having sex is the issue... I think the issue is when a woman can probably make more money taking her clothes off than most other careers. Even if they have another talent, acting in a quasi-porn star style seems to the most effective way to get attention- e.g. Rihanna's and Britney's recent 'performance' at an awards show, where they basically acted in what would be called a soft-porn lesbian scene if they weren't 'music artists'. Their sexuality has completely over-taken their value as singers/musicians.

I undertstand the anger of the letter-writer, but I feel her ire is misdirected at porn.

Morag

cherub rock wrote: »

What are people's views on the Suicide Girls? They're meant to be alternative and feisty women making choices - applying to the site themselves for example.

The owners old out to playboy,

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/

Elle Collins

Acacia wrote: »

I undertstand the anger of the letter-writer, but I feel her ire is misdirected at porn.

I agree with this to an extent. The pornification of female sexuality is merely a particularly ugly symptom of a general contempt towards women. The message porn communicates is that women are only worth **** over, that is what we are here for.

Cue reams of mock-horrified posts re my relationship towards my own sexuality, insecurity issues etc.. :rolleyes:

Count Duckula

Elle Collins wrote: »

The message porn communicates is that women are only worth **** over, that is what we are here for.

I'm a twenty-three year old internet savvy man. I have to admit I've watched my fair share of porn in my time.

And I have to say that I've never got the impression once from a porn video that women are only on this planet for me to **** over. I've never had that conveyed to me in any shape or form. I've never sat there and thought, "yeh, look at this slut, she knows she's here only for my pleasure."

I do think that the opinion you expressed is a common one, but it seems to me that it comes from those who don't particularly enjoy porn and dislike the idea of a man objectifying a woman in any form. Now, that is a perfectly reasonable belief - that no man should ever objectify a woman and view her in terms of her sexuality - but I fear that in a sense that is inevitable. Whether it be through porn or merely a man's imagination, there will be times when he is pleasuring himself that the woman on the screen or in his mind has the sole purpose of sexually arousing him. She is, not to put it too bluntly, a tool.

But it would be a very unhealthy man who lets that brief objectivity spill over into his treatment of women in general. I think that most men (and women) who watch porn are sensible enough to separate the arousal they feel towards the images being displayed, and their treatment of the opposite (or same) gender in real life.

Again, I think what this boils down to is that some people of both genders find the idea that a man is using images of people having sex (and primarily, I assume, the woman involved) to get himself off degrading and offensive to the woman involved and therefore women in general. If he can view her in such base terms and find worth only in her sexuality, will that not colour his treatment of women in general? Will he not start to see all women as having worth in their sexuality?

Personally, I don't think he will. The porn gets him off and then he's done with it, at least until the next time he's alone and horny!

Malari

Count Duckula wrote: »

And I have to say that I've never got the impression once from a porn video that women are only on this planet for me to **** over. I've never had that conveyed to me in any shape or form. I've never sat there and thought, "yeh, look at this slut, she knows she's here only for my pleasure."

I have to say I agree with this. I was actually quite shocked that a previous poster expected to look like her barbie doll when she grew up. Even at the age when I played with barbie dolls, I wasn't under the impression all women should look like this. I mean, is it a case of not everybody being able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

gargleblaster

Dudess wrote: »

Btw, the letter is extreme in places, yet ironically, many people who just dismissed its writer later on agree with points that are pretty much the same as what she said, just worded better.

I find that very interesting.

Malari wrote: »

I have to say I agree with this. I was actually quite shocked that a previous poster expected to look like her barbie doll when she grew up. Even at the age when I played with barbie dolls, I wasn't under the impression all women should look like this. I mean, is it a case of not everybody being able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

And I find this quite unfair. Of course it's not because they can't distinguish between fantasy and reality. It might be more due to how they're raised; whether or not their parents stress the importance of apperance, weight, etc. Perhaps the type of peer group they have growing up. There could be any number of factors. However the doll and advertising and as some people have phrased it 'the sea of sexism that we all grow up swimming in' (a metaphor explaining how it is that it can be so overwhelmingly ubiquitous yet still seemingly impossible for so many to even recognize) all combine to contribute to epidemics of eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorders. I sincerely doubt it's due to a lack of ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

Ambersky

Probably would have to hear a bit more from you Elle Collins but I think you are brave to post that and yea I do think there is a strong element of what you are talking about in the "Industry" where everything is a commodity.
I do think there is good reason to critique the porn industry and I dont think women should be immediately jumped on for expressing the negative feelings they have around it.
Especially I dont think they should be insulted with suggestions that there is something wrong with them.
Women hear and feel that enough already.
But there is a lot of room for discussion, especially around how erotica or porn could be a more positive, women friendly experience.
How could we enjoy sex, sexual imagery, sexual fantasy etc.

Interesting article In My Opinion
http://www.lawsonry.com/736-does-the-porn-industry-suck-a-look-through-the-eyes-of-a-feminist/

So, there comes a time when the question is proposed to the feminist writer: Does the porn industry suck?

For this particular feminist blogger, the answer is not always clear. The thing that I think is most important to recognize is this: While there is plenty within the porn industry that needs some serious feminist help, not all of the porn industry sucks. Throughout the years, it has gotten better and it continues to improve the more feminists work through various issues within it. As of right now, there is feminist pornography available and feminist pornographers are really pushing boundaries and making changes within the field. I’m incredibly happy about that, because I don’t think that porn is inherently anti-feminist or anti-woman. I just happen to think that porn as it stands right now reflects the patriarchal culture in which we grow up and operate. However, in conjunction with the nature of porn, it is reflected and magnified. So, it’s not only reflected back into the culture, it’s reflected back into the culture with more intensity than it may have been put in. This not only perpetuates but exacerbates the problem.

And .........
Other than that, of course there’s the argument of objectification within pornography. Often in porn, women are treated as if they’re just ****holes. They are often just there to be pounded by one or more penises and their consent, enthusiasm, and pleasure doesn’t even seem to be factored into the equation let alone a valued and highlighted aspect of the sexual activity taking place. Basically, the industry caters to exclusively male interests (as they currently exist, which is often fueled by hypermasculinity and masculinity dependent upon misogyny), and unfortunately that generally includes devaluing women’s experiences and agency. In addition to that, issues of infantilization, body image, and even racism are involved with pornography as it currently exists in our society.
............
...........You cannot change the reflection in the mirror without changing the person looking into it, so I think that in order to fix porn we must first fix society. That’s not to say that we cannot work within the porn industry to try to remedy some travesties that are perpetuated by its reflection, however. I think the problems with porn can be remedied by more involvement of women in the porn creation process as well as more consumer involvement by women. We have to shake off the notion that women don’t like porn because it’s related to sex and reveal the notion that maybe women don’t like porn as it is right now because it’s related to sexism. From there I think the porn industry is entirely salvageable, and indeed could possibly be an amazing tool for ending oppressive attitudes about sexuality. The key concept to push for in creating feminist pornography is choice, enthusiasm, and variety. With these concepts firmly in place within the porn industry, I think the question of the industry’s suckitude will finally be able to be put to rest with a resounding “No, porn doesn’t suck, let’s watch some”, and that is a day I am more than happy to see arrive

What a wonderful sentence
"We have to shake off the notion that women don’t like porn because it’s related to sex and reveal the notion that maybe women don’t like porn as it is right now because it’s related to sexism."

There are more interesting observations in the rest of the article.

coffee_cake

Ambersky wrote: »

I do think there is good reason to critique the porn industry and I dont think women should be immediately jumped on for expressing the negative feelings they have around it.
Especially I dont think they should be insulted with suggestions that there is something wrong with them.

I have read through the thread again and I can't see where anyone insulted the writer for criticising the porn industry. Or is this a general observation/thought?

Ambersky

General
Elle Collins seemed to me to be anticipating some.

Logical Fallacy

Dudess wrote: »

I really think the writer of the letter is only referring to the aggressive stuff, not all porn.

I think the letter highlights the attitude that man people have that all porn is aggressive porn. I keep seeing it trotted out over and over again in articles all over the place.

It's like people in a new city, walking down the street getting distracted by big neon signs and tourist trap mechanisms.

People will google "porn" in order to research their articles and jump on the first 3 links. As someone who runs assorted websites i have to break some hearts and say that the first 3 links are not the most popular, they are the ones with the best written pages for SEO.

Elle Collins

I'm too busy to get into this thread right now but I'll return to it. I'd just like to answer this post:

bluewolf wrote: »

I have read through the thread again and I can't see where anyone insulted the writer for criticising the porn industry. Or is this a general observation/thought?

I found the tone of many of the responses to the writers feelings presumptuous, condescending, demeaning and more besides, as responses re pornography usually are here on boards. When's the last time any woman posted on PI about having an issue with her partner's porn habit and was given any general message other than it is acceptable, it is she who is wrong, and she ought to shut up and put up with it?

Count Duckula

Elle Collins wrote: »

When's the last time any woman posted on PI about having an issue with her partner's porn habit and was given any general message other than it is acceptable, it is she who is wrong, and she ought to shut up and put up with it?

Actually, I remember there was a thread on exactly that in PI not long ago, and whilst a lot of people did voice the "porn is fine, get over it" opinion, there were a good number of voices saying she had every right to feel aggrieved at her partner's porn use.

The "general message" seemed to be that whilst she had absolutely every right to dislike porn for any reason she wanted, she didn't have the right to dictate to other people what they could and couldn't find arousing.

Elle Collins

Count Duckula wrote: »

Actually, I remember there was a thread on exactly that in PI not long ago, and whilst a lot of people did voice the "porn is fine, get over it" opinion, there were a good number of voices saying she had every right to feel aggrieved at her partner's porn use.

The "general message" seemed to be that whilst she had absolutely every right to dislike porn for any reason she wanted, she didn't have the right to dictate to other people what they could and couldn't find arousing.

I remember the thread you're talking about. The general message was the same as it always is. The reason that thread sticks out in your memory and mine is because several people posted messages on it which bucked the usual trend.

Ickle Magoo

Folks, please don't reference specific threads from PI or discuss any other forums here. If you have any issue with posters, moderation or anything else regarding another forum please take it to feedback.

Many thanks

seenitall

I have been reading PI for a while now, and these types of threads in PI are generally (not talking about any specific ones, mods ) about an OP's inability to stomach how their b/f can be turned on by an image of a woman who is not herself, as opposed to being about an indignation at the objectification of women etc.

Edit: This is merely an observation, I have no issues with any posters, moderation or anything else regarding the PI forum.

pajunior

optogirl wrote: »

I used to think that the best approach to my intimate life was ‘no politics in the bedroom’. I figured you like what you like and that’s ok. Human sexuality is a complicated and wonderful thing. What saddens me now is that I cannot shake the feeling that a lot of what I enjoy has been insidiously implanted in my brain by a society that tells me it is hot to be ‘a dirty slut’ or a ‘daddy’s girl’, that it is empowering to have empty sex and that I do not deserve to ask for love and respect, because I am a pretty object here for consumption. The validation and approval that comes from being a sex object is empty, but its hard to shake the conditioning that tells me that as a woman that is all I am good for. I want to be valued for so much more than my body, and yet I sometimes ‘jokingly’ think that if worst came to worst, I could always turn to sex work. I am a very privileged and educated young woman, and yet I often cant but think that in terms of economic value my body is the best thing I have to offer. This is awful, and if I could think these things in my position, it is no surprise that so many women feel the need to turn to sex work. I am angry that I live in a society that masquerades all this as totally ok. That sells the notion that women are at their most valuable as objects, and better still they enjoy it.

As a guy I simply have to ask, are there many women who feel this way? For me this was by far the most disturbing aspect of a somewhat disturbing letter.