Openly Anti-porn - reprint of letter

xsiborg

im not a prude but....

ah no, seriously, as me mother always said- "everything in moderation!"

i think the author of the letter in the OP has thought FAR too much about the issue, porn (even bad porn!) takes it's ininspiration from somewhere, and the internet has just opened that up to a wider audience.

people always indulged in sex, we wouldn't be here otherwise (obvious quote of the day there!) but to say that it objectifies ALL women is completely misleading, or to suggest that all men take their cues from porn, is also misleading.

of course there is an element of "monkey see, monkey do" about all this but then this isnt a completely male thing either, there are many women too that are inspired by porn and get ideas from it and then get up to all sorts in the bedroom without thinking the ideas were "subliminally implanted" in their brains from watching porn.

i think the author of the article seems to be (how do i say this?) well, feigning disgust to be able to hoist herself up on a moral pedestal that says she is beyond her basest instincts and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for allowing porn to influence the way we interact with the opposite sex.

the simple fact of the matter is that- no, there may be a small minority of people that are influenced in a negative way by porn, in the same way that there are a small minority of people that are influenced by the shallow lives of some vacuuous celebrities, i cite ms. paris hilton or jordan as an example. not every girl wants to be like paris hilton or jordan when they grow up, they usually grow out of this phase and become normal, level headed fully functioning members of society, in the same way that not all men require stimulation by porn before they can perform sexually.

i guess my point being that the author of the letter seems to be basing her opinions solely on the males she would have had experience with. if she had actually done some proper ressearch or even talked to other women about her thoughts on the matter, she may have realised that her thinking could be applied to any subject in the media that we as a society are constantly bombarded with on a daily basis.

only a small minority of men would objectify women based on what they see in porn, and only a small minority of women would see themselves as objectified by porn. most of us are level headed enough to be able to view it for it's entertainment value, not "it's all sex frank, kinky sex" view, (police academy reference, as in you'd swear if it wasnt for the media, nobody would have a clue about sex and we'd all flagellate ourselves on a regular basis for our impure thoughts!).

the same objectification could be argued from a male perspective in that we would all feel insecure because we think women expect us all to have two foot penises, when the reality is- they know better!

and so should the author of this letter.

parker kent

gargleblaster wrote: »

Parker kent my question is more: Why are we now discussing and debating cherub rock's post? It's neither here nor there from what I got in respect to the OP, which seemed to focus more on the effect that porn has had on society or the relationships between men and women.

You should have said that so I didn't take it even more off topic by explaining my thoughts further :pac:

I think his/her post just indicated that the letter writer is a little ignorant of what she is dismissing. Everybody is free to dislike porn (I'm pretty blasé about it myself these days), but she goes beyond normal criticism despite basing much of her opinions on what she imagines porn to be (based on stereotypical images of porn that are not representative of what is out there or popular nowadays).

parker kent

gargleblaster wrote: »

And thanks for the URL. I'm curious now about this claim that amateur-only sites get more hits than other types. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just like knowing whether or not my perceptions are accurate. I know there are places that track website hits, so I might be doing a little research.

Note: If you refer to my post, I said they "may" get more hits as I was speaking in theory. Although I think that article is pretty on the money.

gargleblaster

xsiborg wrote: »

she may have realised that her thinking could be applied to any subject in the media that we as a society are constantly bombarded with on a daily basis.

I took her point to be that the pornification is part and parcel of the obejctification we are constantly bombarded with on a daily basis. That the increasing acceptance of porn is in fact influencing both the type and the amount of that bombardment.

xsiborg

i would love to know the ACTUAL source if this "open letter" and the real inspiration for writing it, as it seems written in the style of a journalist's retrospective piece, laden with emotive language and written in such a way as almost to bait the target audience (a feminist group) in a "look at me, im standing tall and im taking back my own power" kind of way.

i'll freely admit i don't know much about feminism, but this would seem to me like a cliche that only a journalist who also didnt understand the feminist movement would come up with.

its written like the author had an epiphany almost while watching an "anti men porn project" video, perhaps in its original context i presume it means anti "porn for the exclusive amusement of men" as opposed to "anti porn".

it just sounds so much like a series of bad cliches that the only "manufactured images" i got were of the stereotypical teenage boy locked away in his room tugging himself off to pictures of pamela anderson and cindy crawford (what? WHAT? *looks over shoulder* ), downloading porn all night, who then grows up to believe that all girls love threesomes, bukake and anal, and objectifies women only as spunk receptacles.

the simple fact of the matter is that this is not the case, and most young girls while they may feel pressured by the media and society to look and behave a certain way in their teenage years, most of them have enough intelligence to want to have succesful careers, lives, motherhood...

gargleblaster wrote: »

I took her point to be that the pornification is part and parcel of the obejctification we are constantly bombarded with on a daily basis. That the increasing acceptance of porn is in fact influencing both the type and the amount of that bombardment.

i completely agree with you that there is more of an acknowledgement of more extreme types of porn (note i said acknowledgement, not "acceptance"!) becoming more prevalent in society, but this is more due to the fact that the explosion of the internet and this has diminished our moral mores, for example ten years ago i would have been disgusted by A2M, first i'd heard of it, but now- not so much, you could argue i've become indifferent, and that my exposure to porn has had this effect on me.

but then as i pointed out earlier, the same could be said about my indifference to seeing wars and the casualties of war on tv. the numbers just become statistics that the likes of sky news use to scaremonger easily influenced people.

to get back on topic- there are plenty of other places she could have sent that letter, me personally i would have questioned her motivation to have written it in the first place.

Neyite

I dont see why she is blaming porn for people getting their ideas from? If its just where you get your ideas, then Cosmopolitan has a hell of a lot to answer for.

Porn never has been a big deal for me. Cosmo gave me most of my moves. Grrr

flutterflye

I'm not anti-porn, I'm more anti-over sexulisation in the mass media I think.

I think porn always has been, and always will be.

But it has become ridiculous these days, how sex in general has taken over everything.

I am hoping for some sort of happy balance in the middle of the two extremes of sexual oppression, and what we have nowadays, complete over sexualisation.

That girl just sounds sad and confused to me though.

Jack B. Badd

xsiborg wrote: »

i think the author of the article seems to be (how do i say this?) well, feigning disgust to be able to hoist herself up on a moral pedestal that says she is beyond her basest instincts and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for allowing porn to influence the way we interact with the opposite sex.

I'm inclined to agree with this assessment. The funny thing, on reading the article that parker kent posted, I wonder if the general anti-porn sentiment isn't about all porn but about certain types of porn (specifically those that appeal more to men than women). I'm a woman & prefer pornagraphic literature to visual pornography. Does the fact that "no sex workers were used in the making of" my preferred porn mean that I can feel superior to the guy who watched porn filmed on a camera in a studio? It seems a bit of moral high-horsiness imo.
Also not all visual porn objectifies women (as has been pointed out by previous posters) and imo there seems to be a certain blinkered notion amongst some people, male & female, about what constitutes objectification of women - or men for that matter but that's much more socially acceptable & popular at this time. On the other hand, there are always people willing to turn not only themselves but their social group into victims.

Stheno

gargleblaster wrote: »

She is saying that she thinks that maybe porn is becoming too everpresent an influence, and I agree. I can't go into AH anymore for fear of seeing certain types of threads or comments. Apparently the pwetty girls thread had to be closed, and I have to wonder why. I think I have a good idea. Women don't talk about men the way men talk about women. There is a harshness that seems to have come along with the pornification of society, and if there was more understanding between the sexes then I don't think it would be there.

How is porn becoming an ever present influence? Personally I've not noticed that (see below) and I've never seen any real porn on boards.

Now maybe I don't notice it, and tbh, I've never watched any porn, frankly as the thoughts of it bores me to death, I do however love erotic fiction and have read the likes of the story of o, but for me porn plays no part in my life, the closest I've possibly come to it is Betty Blue and I switched that off after about five minutes

I'd an interesting conversation with the bf's son ages ago (he's 20) and I casually slagged him as he had a problem with his laptop and I said "If I fix it, am I going to find porn on there?" and he was fairly straight up and we then had a chat about porn, and compared it to real life women and he had a completely different view on real life women versus the actors in porn (didn't expect his rl women to be shaved to the nth degree, deep throating, etc) and acknowledged that for him it was more an exploratory thing that anything else.

As for women not talking about men like men talk about women, are you joking? Just this week I'd a female colleague refer to a male in work as "ooooh the cute one, hasn't he got a nice ass?"

Frankly I think the harshness that is seen in the younger generation of men and women these days is almost a post feminism of the seventies backlash, coupled with other societal factors that have changed views.

Nothing to do with porn imo.

gargleblaster

Advertisements for hamburger places that use Paris Hilton gyrating on a car in a revealing swimsuit, advertisements for web hosting services which use scantily clad females in their tv ads - said females hinting that you can see them naked if you visit the website, etc. That is the type of advertisement that I and presumably the author of the letter are referring to as having been influenced by the increasing pornification of society. There are many more examples. These go beyond simply using a sexy body to advertise a product.

As for the 'he has a nice ass' comment - just the fact that you think that's the type of comment I'm talking about speaks volumes. Two threads were recently deleted from AH on the day I decided not to visit the place anymore. They weren't deleted because men were complimenting body parts.

Catari Jaguar

Isn't emo/ scene girl and raven (black haired) trending on redtube and sites like that atm? I dunno how relevant California style porn is these days.

That point made about porn only featuring attractive people was confusing, people are obviously attracted to attractive people. Generally people are turned on more by a young ripped dude or a hot college cheerleader with slim & curvy body than a flabby one.... But if you want old housewives, or beer bellies or BBW there is porn to cater to all tastes. It's ever evolving.

What are people's views on the Suicide Girls? They're meant to be alternative and feisty women making choices - applying to the site themselves for example.

deeduck48

Neyite wrote: »

I dont see why she is blaming porn for people getting their ideas from? If its just where you get your ideas, then Cosmopolitan has a hell of a lot to answer for.

Porn never has been a big deal for me. Cosmo gave me most of my moves. Grrr

thank you.Cosmo indeed has alot to answer for, the odd few times i have ever read this advertisement filled nonsense, all i could think was, the articles in this magazine objectify and degrade women through the use of peer pressure and self loathing. the "quizzes" are designed to catogerise women in a way that undermines everyone's self esteem and self image, because if you really didnt give a toss what anyone else thought about your abilities in a certain area of your life, you wouldnt buy a magazine to do a quiz to find out how well/ poorly you do in these areas.

in reference to the letter in the OP, you will always meet people of both sexes who will try to undermine and debase you, in life/ work/ education or sex, but why let them?you talk about being "scared" but maybe you need to re think where you meet men who would want to have sex with you in a way that scares you.:(
we all have issues in relation to various things but you being "anti" porn wont change the porn industry.

Stheno

gargleblaster wrote: »

Advertisements for hamburger places that use Paris Hilton gyrating on a car in a revealing swimsuit, advertisements for web hosting services which use scantily clad females in their tv ads - said females hinting that you can see them naked if you visit the website, etc. That is the type of advertisement that I and presumably the author of the letter are referring to as having been influenced by the increasing pornification of society. There are many more examples. These go beyond simply using a sexy body to advertise a product.

Am I either a. unaware, b. oblivious, or c. completely ignorant of these types of ads?

Now I don't watch much tv and have little need of web hosting services so it could be I'm not in the demographic?

Haven't the motor industry for years used scantily clad women at motor shows to promote cars? I'd never in a zillion years relate that to porn. The use of women as a sexualisation factor in selling yes, but porn? No.

As for the 'he has a nice ass' comment - just the fact that you think that's the type of comment I'm talking about speaks volumes. Two threads were recently deleted from AH on the day I decided not to visit the place anymore. They weren't deleted because men were complimenting body parts.

That's AH it's an entirely different forum tbh, I was making the point that women judge men on attractiveness etc as much as men do. I tend not to read AH apart from news stuff and tbh *mod hat on* it's not a done thing to compare discussions between forums.

From a female point of view do you disagree with my points above?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

gargleblaster

Stheno wrote: »

Am I either a. unaware, b. oblivious, or c. completely ignorant of these types of ads?

Now I don't watch much tv and have little need of web hosting services so it could be I'm not in the demographic?

Haven't the motor industry for years used scantily clad women at motor shows to promote cars? I'd never in a zillion years relate that to porn. The use of women as a sexualisation factor in selling yes, but porn? No.

Like I said, using a sexy body to advertise things is nothing new. Have you ever seen a car ad in which the woman was gyrating on (and nearly humping) the car? You may not have seen them but they exist and they are becoming more common.

That's AH it's an entirely different forum tbh, I was making the point that women judge men on attractiveness etc as much as men do. I tend not to read AH apart from news stuff and tbh *mod hat on* it's not a done thing to compare discussions between forums.

From a female point of view do you disagree with my points above?

I wasn't comparing forums, merely pointing out that that is very far from the type of talk I'm referring to. It's not limited to AH by any means. That's just the place I was unfortunate enough to see it most recently, hence the reference.

I'm glad these things aren't common enough to be noticed by everyone. But I know I'm not the only one who notices them. Not by a long shot.

It is of course debatable whether the inreasing popularity / acceptance of porn is what is fueling these things. As I said earlier, that is just my opinion.

Stheno

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Sheesh you forgot heavy metal and the death messages

The idea that we are pure and uncorrupted until something comes along from the outside to make us dissolute and degenerate goes all the way back to Genesis; the serpent came into the Garden and corrupted Eve, and we have identified having sexual desires with being "fallen" ever since. The same logic is at play in this article when the author wonders how certain deviant thoughts got into her head, and concludes that some whispering serpant (in this case, the porn industry) must have implanted them there.

I think that ends when you enter puberty and start wondering about your sexuality What influences it affects how you view it

Our self-image as decent, respectable, virtuous people is not always in harmony with our private sexual cravings. Freud might suggest that to maintain our self-image, we have a need to repress the incompatible cravings—the extreme manifestation of which is found in doctrinaire, authoritarian strands of religion, where any "virtuous" woman is well on her way to a burning pit of hellfire the moment she lets a hand stray near her clitoris.

Surely a healthy happy consensual sexual relationship is within the bounds of what you suggest?

I personally find all this worrying and fretting about "How did these thoughts get 'implanted' in my brain and how can I get rid of them" to be unhealthy in the extreme. I've watched porn -- some of it I like, and a lot of it I don't. I don't like seeing women getting hurt, humiliated, degraded, or abused. I don't like the cartoon-like aspects of porn, with all the 10-inch penises and 38HHH ludicrously implanted breasts. But there are producers who have started to make quite beautiful porn that is gorgeously filmed and just shows people just enjoying themselves sexually, without these elements of degradation and cartoon-like absurdity, and I do like that.

I've always thought of porn as very crude, hence the lack of attraction. I have to admit I've no real interest in it at all, but love going to the IFI to watch movies outside the norm so can understand your point.

Ultimately, porn is a genre. Saying "I'm anti-porn" is a bit like saying "I'm anti-music," without any effort to differentiate Mozart from Megadeth. It's possible to state what forms of porn you find objectionable -- and I'm sure that everybody finds some kinds of porn objectionable -- without issuing a blanket condemnation of the whole genre.

At least you were alphabetically in order, but I agree, I don't watch porn as a. I've no interest, and b. I've never bothered to find what works for my and the oh.

It does serve a purpose in my opinion

Stheno

gargleblaster wrote: »

Like I said, using a sexy body to advertise things is nothing new. Have you ever seen a car ad in which the woman was gyrating on (and nearly humping) the car? You may not have seen them but they exist and they are becoming more common.

In motor shows sure, but not on tv, now as I said I don't watch much tv.

The most female ad I can think of is for the Alfa Guiletta, but I'm more aware of the Darth Vadar ad Volkswagen are running and love it

I wasn't comparing forums, merely pointing out that that is very far from the type of talk I'm referring to. It's not limited to AH by any means. That's just the place I was unfortunate enough to see it most recently, hence the reference.

Feedback would be the best place to bring that up then if you think there is a site wide bias

I'm glad these things aren't common enough to be noticed by everyone. But I know I'm not the only one who notices them. Not by a long shot.

Can you give any mainstream examples of those who notice them?

It is of course debatable whether the inreasing popularity / acceptance of porn is what is fueling these things. As I said earlier, that is just my opinion.

And while having an opinion is fine on a discussion forum it's good to back it up with stats/studies. Have you any to do so?

gargleblaster

I wasn't saying there's any bias on boards at all, merely that there is a marked difference in the way some men talk about women, and the way the vast majority of women talk about men. (I don't think I said 'some' before, I should have, sorry.) There may be women who talk about men in the same ways that the crassest or rudest men do about women, but if so I haven't seen it, and no doubt it is extremely rare as compared to the opposite.

As for examples of the kinds of crass things that are said, I can rattle a few off from memory but that's not convincing. I'd rather cite the actual evidence if possible, but I don't have the time to find it now. It was easy to find one of the ads I mentioned though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12t2z_G3Npg

This is just one glaring example of course. Like I said it does seem to be getting more common. Which is what makes me think it's linked to the increasing popularity of and acceptance of porn.

Also if you'd take a few comments from memory I'd be happy to do that, but I'm about to be offline for a bit so it might be a while.

I'd like to apologize for soap boxing and thank everyone involved for the discussion. As a one-time avid consumer of porn (don't mean paying consumer, mind) it's one of my pet subjects.


Oops, edited to add that yes I can give examples of other people observing the difference in the way men and women appreciate and comment on each other but I have to find it and I'm now presesd for time. Will do so when I get a chance, thanks again for the conversation.

K-9

Stheno wrote: »

I'd an interesting conversation with the bf's son ages ago (he's 20) and I casually slagged him as he had a problem with his laptop and I said "If I fix it, am I going to find porn on there?" and he was fairly straight up and we then had a chat about porn, and compared it to real life women and he had a completely different view on real life women versus the actors in porn (didn't expect his rl women to be shaved to the nth degree, deep throating, etc) and acknowledged that for him it was more an exploratory thing that anything else.

C4 sex education had a programme on this, going into secondary schools and questioning 16/17 year olds on their attitudes to sex. When asked about sexual questions many of the lads seemed to take porn and "the money shot" a bit too seriously. Girls seemed to then be pressured into these things because that's what the guys want or deem acceptable or normal.

Both genders needed education on what's actually normal, things like basically having sex!

It's a TV show and will sensationalise but it is a long way from my day! 20 years ago!

My young lad is 13, going into secondary and inevitably he is going to look for porn on the internet at some stage. The best comparison to tell them is it is like a movie or some shoot em up type video game they play.

You don't treat a "real" person like that* Consent etc. The other side of it is girls shouldn't be expected to do something in a porn video either and they seemed to feel under pressure to perform like a porn star which isn't right either.

*That's another issue!

The Sweeper

I don't know whether or not porn is 'ruining our society' because I haven't read the research.

These are things I do know from my own life, however:

When I was 12, I had never seen a penis (am female just to clarify that) and most of the 12 year old boys I knew had never seen a vagina. Even if we had, they were pencil sketches in books.

12 year olds now have access to images and videos of both.

When I was 14 and had my first kiss, I was kissing a guy who was also 14 and the greatest exposure he had to sex was possibly watching someone else kiss and talking about it furtively with his mates. If he was lucky, someone may have handed around an imported skin mag so he may have seen some full colour boobs.

When I was 17, I lost my virginity to an 18 year old who had slept with one person before me. I had never seen video porn, and neither had he, but both of us had seen porn magazines.

Now I'm in my mid-30s, and what strikes me is that young people now have likely seen and heard far more graphic, hard core, and potentially violent pornography before they have their first developmental sexual experiences than I could even imagine.

What the hell must that be doing to their expectations of their own experiences?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Jack B. Badd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

How about comprehensive sex education? There seems to be a constant moan when sex ed is mentioned with regards to children because (gasp!) you'll steal/ruin their innocence. As far as I can gather innocence is code word for ignorant, because it's easier to reconcile our offspring with the pretty 2-dimensional image of them we have in our head if we keep them the hell away from the real world.

Let's face it, the vast majority of porn (regardless of it's form) is lies in the same way that the vast majority of action movies are lies, because the truth never really sells the same way. That doesn't mean there's no place for the truth, that it should be hidden, because somehow that will stop kids buying the lies as well. Educate the little darlings! Give them the actual weapons to deal with and enjoy porn the same way they would any other lie designed to entertain.

Laisurg

I love the way she's just self conscious and bashing porn as a result, must never get the ride

Laisurg

The Sweeper wrote: »

I don't know whether or not porn is 'ruining our society' because I haven't read the research.

These are things I do know from my own life, however:

When I was 12, I had never seen a penis (am female just to clarify that) and most of the 12 year old boys I knew had never seen a vagina. Even if we had, they were pencil sketches in books.

12 year olds now have access to images and videos of both.

When I was 14 and had my first kiss, I was kissing a guy who was also 14 and the greatest exposure he had to sex was possibly watching someone else kiss and talking about it furtively with his mates. If he was lucky, someone may have handed around an imported skin mag so he may have seen some full colour boobs.

When I was 17, I lost my virginity to an 18 year old who had slept with one person before me. I had never seen video porn, and neither had he, but both of us had seen porn magazines.

Now I'm in my mid-30s, and what strikes me is that young people now have likely seen and heard far more graphic, hard core, and potentially violent pornography before they have their first developmental sexual experiences than I could even imagine.

What the hell must that be doing to their expectations of their own experiences?

Well don't let your kids use the internet when you're not around so if it bothers you that much

xxtattyberxx

"The difference between pornography and erotica is lighting." Angela Leonard

Laisurg wrote: »

I love the way she's just self conscious and bashing porn as a result, must never get the ride

My thoughts exactly somebody has serious issues with porn... each to their own, it def doesnt need to be publisiced imo this lady is having a sheer rant and venting the lack of intimacy.

Originally Posted by Stheno
Sheesh you forgot heavy metal and the death messages
Oh, everybody knows that when you play a heavy metal album backward, you hear 'kill, kill, kill, kill' and 'Lucifer is my Lord'.

Bloody priceless!






i hate it when my porn tries too hard to be a legit movie

Ickle Magoo

Laisurg infracted.

tLL is primarily as place for the ladies of Boards to discuss issues of interest to them, from a female perspective. While male posters are welcome, crudeness and misogyny are not.

xxtattyberxx, a certain standard of posting is expected on this forum; posting just to jeer at other posters and chant "get it in" is falling a long way short of that.

Could you both read the charter here before posting on this forum again.


As per site policy, if you have an issue with any moderator instruction or request please contact me or one of my co-mods by PM

The Sweeper

Laisurg wrote: »

Well don't let your kids use the internet when you're not around so if it bothers you that much

I don't have kids. Thanks for the tip tho.

Dudess

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think that happens because many people think of the term "porn" as a negative one - it's even used as a euphemism for non sexual material that's particularly graphic and disturbing: e.g. those endless books about child abuse, violent TV content etc. I do it myself - I apply "porn" to the nasty, moneymaking stuff, "erotica" to actual stuff featuring people enjoying themselves (which I love also)

Laisurg wrote: »

Well don't let your kids use the internet when you're not around so if it bothers you that much

Where did she say it "bothers her that much"?

And it's a good and relevant question by her - better than the "Aw yeah, woman getting aggressively anally fucked, gang-banged, deep-throated, cummed on the eyes - that sh1t is awesome!" mentality in order to look like "the maaaaan" in front of your friends.

I find the above type of porn utterly despicable - don't care if the women want to do it and are well paid, the depictions are nauseating - and I despair of the way so many people (male and female) are just happy to accept it. If such cynical, cold, joyless stuff is the take on sexuality that people just discovering their sexuality are exposed to a lot, I really, really hope it doesn't influence them in real life.

Btw, the letter is extreme in places, yet ironically, many people who just dismissed its writer later on agree with points that are pretty much the same as what she said, just worded better.

Truley

The Sweeper wrote: »

Now I'm in my mid-30s, and what strikes me is that young people now have likely seen and heard far more graphic, hard core, and potentially violent pornography before they have their first developmental sexual experiences than I could even imagine.

What the hell must that be doing to their expectations of their own experiences?

In fairness I've never found that the level of knowledge/exposure to sex or porn has an adverse effect on people's sexual morality. In fact, it can be observed that societies where sex is a forbidden, taboo subject there is usually greater instance of ignorance, deviance, unwanted pregnancy etc Compare attitudes in recent history Ireland to places like Holland.

I certainly think that if sex hadn't been such a secretive taboo subject while growing up I probably would have had a more positive sexual history, same goes for my friends. A lot of negative sexual experience, especially for teenagers, stems from curiosity and testing boundaries.

Dudess

Yeah very good point, but at the same time, the messages being conveyed by big studio hardcore porn are not positive ones.