Openly Anti-porn - reprint of letter

optogirl

The following is an open letter to the Cork Feminista - I think it raises some very interesting points. I know it's long but it's a good read. What do ye think?


http://corkfeminista.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/a-letter/

“Dear Jen and Linda,
I am writing this to you because I don’t really know where else to send it. Due to following Cork Feminista on Twitter I watched today the video on the Feminist Summer School. I then looked up the anti men porn project that was mentioned in the video, and have spent most of the evening reading and watching related material.
I feel it is time for me to come out, as anti porn. I need to admit to myself that I do not agree with it and I do not think it is harmless adult fun, where people are willing and well paid.
I am so angry at a world which has co-opted my sexuality, my desires and my body, and told me to shut the **** up about it all. As a young woman I am sad that it is likely that the men I have relationships with will have had their first sexual experiences through printed or online pornographic material, and that I feel I have little choice but to accept their use of porn as a fact of life. Porn is everywhere. I am lucky that I grew up with very little exposure to any explicit pornographic material (I am leaving the endless stream of objectified women in advertising, with their pornified orgasm faces and their idealised bodies out of it for now). So how is it, that I have somehow absorbed the messages from society about what it is I find sexy and what it is that I exist for? How is it, that during intimate moments I think or say things which feel like implanted thoughts and words, which are removed from any authentic personal erotic experience? I am angry that the world condones men’s use of porn as inevitable. I am angry that we are lied to and told that this industry is empowering and in fact feminist. I am angry that this view of women bleeds into how we are treated and judged daily, how the men in our lives see us. I am angry that men say they can compartmentalise it, ‘it’s just fantasy’, its not real. I am disgusted and frightened when I am intimate with men and I hear them say things that I’m pretty sure are empty repetitions of things theyhave come to think they find sexy, because they should, because these bitches like to get choked, because I want you to **** me harder.
How are my fantasies not my own? How is it that they conform to the most mundane, bland, predictable scenes from what I imagine are bad pornos. How can this be, when I have never actively watched or sought out this material. Yet we all know what the fantasies are, the school girl, the gang bang, anal, being ejaculated on, and on and on to depths of plain abuse that I don’t even want to begin to fathom.
I used to think that the best approach to my intimate life was ‘no politics in the bedroom’. I figured you like what you like and that’s ok. Human sexuality is a complicated and wonderful thing. What saddens me now is that I cannot shake the feeling that a lot of what I enjoy has been insidiously implanted in my brain by a society that tells me it is hot to be ‘a dirty slut’ or a ‘daddy’s girl’, that it is empowering to have empty sex and that I do not deserve to ask for love and respect, because I am a pretty object here for consumption. The validation and approval that comes from being a sex object is empty, but its hard to shake the conditioning that tells me that as a woman that is all I am good for. I want to be valued for so much more than my body, and yet I sometimes ‘jokingly’ think that if worst came to worst, I could always turn to sex work. I am a very privileged and educated young woman, and yet I often cant but think that in terms of economic value my body is the best thing I have to offer. This is awful, and if I could think these things in my position, it is no surprise that so many women feel the need to turn to sex work. I am angry that I live in a society that masquerades all this as totally ok. That sells the notion that women are at their most valuable as objects, and better still they enjoy it.
I hope that you do not object to me sending this to you. This desire to come out as anti porn is one that throws up massive internal struggle. It seems crazy, but I am only now admitting to myself that I am ANTI PORN. Full stop. It seems so simple, and yet it is a hugely emotional and difficult issue. I fear being called anti-sex, or prudish, or a crazed fun ruining feminist. A humourless, unlovable sour woman. Because if you are not with the female chauvinist pigs, you sure as hell are a crap modern woman. I feel like this realisation is almost a dirty little secret, that I must keep my fun ruining, prudish ways to myself. Which is why I am writing to you first, to make my declaration here and now in a safe space where I hope I will not be looked at with ridicule and awe.
I think porn is wrong. I think it is damaging for society, for relationships, for all human beings and most especially women. I think it is dangerous, exploitative, and a vast web of utter fabrication. I want women to stand up and know they deserve better. Porn is not funny, and its not ok. I want men (and women) to learn that their real erotic power lies beyond being blindly fed manufactured images, that their imagination is sexy.
I have made a decision not to lie to myself any more, not to brush away my feelings of discomfort around porn without fully examining them.
I really appreciate and admire what you guys are doing with Cork Feminista. I unfortunately am not based in Cork, but it means so much to have the email come in on a Friday and remind me that there are people out there who are passionate, motivated, and doing something. It reminds me I am not alone.
I hope that me sending you this email is ok.
Best wishes and love,
In sisterhood!!
Linn”

coffee_cake

Jesus, she has some issues. I don't even know where to start on what's wrong with that letter.
I'll have a think and come back to you :eek:

The_Morrigan

I'm actually in shock.
There are some seriously angry tones in that email, and I'm wondering if some of the descriptions are not from any material she has seen, but by actions of sexual partners with/towards her...

coffee_cake

the letter wrote:

I feel it is time for me to come out, as anti porn. I need to admit to myself that I do not agree with it and I do not think it is harmless adult fun, where people are willing and well paid.

Okay that's grand, to each their own, etc

I am so angry at a world which has co-opted my sexuality, my desires and my body, and told me to shut the **** up about it all.

Possible point here due to pressure on women and their looks...

How is it, that during intimate moments I think or say things which feel like implanted thoughts and words, which are removed from any authentic personal erotic experience?

I don't know, Linn, how is it? Because it sounds to me like she likes, does, and says things, and then hates herself for it. And that sounds like issues. She can hardly blame porn here when in the preceding paragraph she talks about how little exposure she's had to it.

I am angry that the world condones men’s use of porn as inevitable. I am angry that we are lied to and told that this industry is empowering and in fact feminist. I am angry that this view of women bleeds into how we are treated and judged daily, how the men in our lives see us.

Men are not the only ones using porn. Sexism was around before porn.

I am disgusted and frightened when I am intimate with men and I hear them say things that I’m pretty sure are empty repetitions of things theyhave come to think they find sexy, because they should, because these bitches like to get choked, because I want you to **** me harder.

I would love to hear what exactly disgusts and frightens her - "*** me harder"? And that has to be from porn? Is she going to continue blaming every act and desire and speech on porn, and then loathe herself if she likes it, and loathe men if she doesn't?
I mean she doesn't have to like anything she doesn't like, but assuming that a partner says something only because "they think they should find it sexy" instead of accepting maybe they do...
If porn is made as a result and reflection of what people desire, then naturally there will be overlap. It doesn't necessarily make porn the starting point (nor vice versa...).

How are my fantasies not my own? How is it that they conform to the most mundane, bland, predictable scenes from what I imagine are bad pornos.

Key parts highlighted. She doesn't know what they're from, she has no experience with porn, so she is blaming her own fantasies on porn and indulging in more self-loathing.

I used to think that the best approach to my intimate life was ‘no politics in the bedroom’. I figured you like what you like and that’s ok. Human sexuality is a complicated and wonderful thing.

Something I agree with!

I want men (and women) to learn that their real erotic power lies beyond being blindly fed manufactured images, that their imagination is sexy.

And yet, Linn, your own imagination seems to disgust you.

What saddens me now is that I cannot shake the feeling that a lot of what I enjoy has been insidiously implanted in my brain by a society that tells me it is hot to be ‘a dirty slut’ or a ‘daddy’s girl’, that it is empowering to have empty sex and that I do not deserve to ask for love and respect, because I am a pretty object here for consumption. The validation and approval that comes from being a sex object is empty, but its hard to shake the conditioning that tells me that as a woman that is all I am good for. I want to be valued for so much more than my body, and yet I sometimes ‘jokingly’ think that if worst came to worst, I could always turn to sex work. I am a very privileged and educated young woman, and yet I often cant but think that in terms of economic value my body is the best thing I have to offer. This is awful, and if I could think these things in my position, it is no surprise that so many women feel the need to turn to sex work. I am angry that I live in a society that masquerades all this as totally ok. That sells the notion that women are at their most valuable as objects, and better still they enjoy it.

Frankly I am not going to break this paragraph down any further, because it is clear yet again she has issues with her own desires. She has a lot of anger based on the letter alone. She also possibly has had bad experiences with some partners, and that is not on, if it's true.
I would suggest to her that communication is the key for any experience but then she doesn't seem to even know what she wants in the first place, so that is a bit pointless.
Without being flippant or smart or anything, I would honestly think she needs to talk to someone about it, some counsellor.
I just want to make it clear again I am not saying that because she is anti porn or because she may not like doing some things; she can be as anti porn and do as she likes. It's all the anger and confusion and blaming other people for her own fantasies I would be concerned about.

There is potential for some conversation on the subject, such as people's expectations being influenced by something they've watched, but that is a people issue and not a porn issue as far as I can see. Many people watch porn; only some have crazy expectations or put pressure on partners as a result.

There is also probably potential for discussions on the ethics of some porn; whether many women are pressured to do it, whether many of them do enjoy it or not (though there's enough amateur stuff out there to dismiss the claim all porn is bad for women), but then I think we've done this on tLL before anyway.

omniscient_toad

That was a surprising read, I was subconsciously steeling myself for a straightforward angry diatribe but it came across as a saddening insight into the mind of someone who clearly has a very conflicted relationship with her own sexuality

MissFlitworth

I am disgusted and frightened when I am intimate with men and I hear them say things that I’m pretty sure are empty repetitions of things theyhave come to think they find sexy

Frightened? Good God. Seems like this lady should lay off having sex with anyone for a while and find herself a therapist. That whole letter was so sad (and not in a 'pathetic' way, in a proper 'you poor fcuker' way)

seamus

Bluewolf has broken it down well there. I actually only glossed over it, but phrases like the below are what stood out for me:

What saddens me now is that I cannot shake the feeling that a lot of what I enjoy has been insidiously implanted in my brain by a society

It seems to me to be a quite formulaic angsty rant about the nature of individuality. Some of us take the whole idea of being "out there" and being different, very seriously.

When you realise that most of what makes you, "you", is in fact the sum of every interaction you've had with other people and all of the ideas and processes implanted passively and unintentionally by society, it can be quite unnerving. You realise that no matter how much you want to be an individual now, the groundwork has already been laid and you have no choice except to conform in many ways, because that's what you want to do. It's an internal conflict where the person desires to conform despite a personal preference to not.

That's what's coming across for me in this letter. We have seen similar rants on boards from people attacking everyone for being "sheeple" and mindless, when it's clear that it's a manifestation of the "I do/do not want to conform" conflict, directed at everyone else because it's society's fault that they feel this conflict.

The validation and approval that comes from being a sex object is empty, but its hard to shake the conditioning that tells me that as a woman that is all I am good for

What she misses is that personal empowerment and lustful objectivity aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible to thrive on your raw base, animal, humanity, while maintaining your personal dignity and individuality. The conflict I mention above stems from the idea that in order to be an "evolved" person, you need to suppress the animal within and not allow yourself to experience the more primal urges and emotions.

The_Morrigan

seamus wrote: »

Bluewolf has broken it down well there. I actually only glossed over it, but phrases like the below are what stood out for me:
It seems to me to be a quite formulaic angsty rant about the nature of individuality. Some of us take the whole idea of being "out there" and being different, very seriously.

When you realise that most of what makes you, "you", is in fact the sum of every interaction you've had with other people and all of the ideas and processes implanted passively and unintentionally by society, it can be quite unnerving. You realise that no matter how much you want to be an individual now, the groundwork has already been laid and you have no choice except to conform in many ways, because that's what you want to do. It's an internal conflict where the person desires to conform despite a personal preference to not.

That's what's coming across for me in this letter. We have seen similar rants on boards from people attacking everyone for being "sheeple" and mindless, when it's clear that it's a manifestation of the "I do/do not want to conform" conflict, directed at everyone else because it's society's fault that they feel this conflict.

What she misses is that personal empowerment and lustful objectivity aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible to thrive on your raw base, animal, humanity, while maintaining your personal dignity and individuality. The conflict I mention above stems from the idea that in order to be an "evolved" person, you need to suppress the animal within and not allow yourself to experience the more primal urges and emotions.

That is spot on.
I'm a highly sexual being, I think it is a fantastic trait to shake off the social norms that Catholic Ireland has dictated for years. I think it takes a very strong minded woman to know when and how to use her sexuality without turning into the typical "slut" type that is perceived as so wrong in society.
You can be very sexually liberated and have a presence, without being a serial bed hopper!

optogirl

I also think Bluewolf has done a good job of breaking it down. While I agree that women are made to feel prudish/abnomal if they are uncomfortable with a partner's use of porn etc, the woman who wrote the letter clearly has a lot of personal issues she needs to work through.

Logical Fallacy

The person who wrote that seems to feel that in a world without porn the natural way to have sex would be strictly missionary, mild embarrassment when you meet the other persons eye and candle light. (Don't get me wrong, candles are great and all but they make a room bloody warm ).

Sex is a very freeing thing, especially when you meet someone you feel comfortable enough to explore certain fantasies and ideas with.

I would say it's one of the most bonding, human and loving things in the world...but that doesn't mean it can't get a little kinky and that doesn't mean you are influenced by anything other than what you and your partner want to explore.

Like a lot of people who read that i reckon i just feel a little sad for the person who wrote it...because she seems to be questioning herself at every step and doubting every thought she has with regards to sex.

beeftotheheels

I think that the writer needs to stop reading Andrea Dworkin et al.

The Sweeper

I am not uncomfortable with porn.


I am bored with it.

I am bored with watching a heavily made up young woman moan with pleasure when she gets ejaculate in her eye.

Ooooh yea? ...isn't it more like 'oooo, ouch, shit that stings, ow ow ow /blinkblinkblink'

Of course you do realise that cumming on someone's face has become the latest greatest sexual thing because cumming inside someone vaginally, anally or orally isn't as good on film...

I could go on, but there seems to be a major confusion between 'I'm Mary Whitehouse' and 'I don't like porn because I think it's really fucking boring, the positions appear painful, there is little lust or grace portrayed, the pleasure is obviously faked, and because I don't want to wipe ejaculate out of my eye or have someone try to slap and twist my breasts like they're trying to tune a particularly irksome radio, and I don't get any pleasure out of watching anyone else experience the same.'

Find me good porn, and I'll subscribe. Find me a snippet where I'm not distracted by the actress covering winces and twitches as she adjusts herself to minimise discomfort while getting rooted as delicately as the police breaking down the door of a crackhouse.

Find me amateur porn that isn't some skinny bloke with a pot belly and his socks on standing in his own bedroom with Van Halen posters all over the walls, getting blown by a girl who's so bored she's checking her watch. (Of course this movie is redeemed by him cumming on her face at the end! WHAT JOY!!)

I'm not anti-porn. I'm anti crap-porn.

pajunior

The Sweeper wrote: »

I am not uncomfortable with porn.


I am bored with it.

I am bored with watching a heavily made up young woman moan with pleasure when she gets ejaculate in her eye.

Ooooh yea? ...isn't it more like 'oooo, ouch, shit that stings, ow ow ow /blinkblinkblink'

Of course you do realise that cumming on someone's face has become the latest greatest sexual thing because cumming inside someone vaginally, anally or orally isn't as good on film...

I could go on, but there seems to be a major confusion between 'I'm Mary Whitehouse' and 'I don't like porn because I think it's really fucking boring, the positions appear painful, there is little lust or grace portrayed, the pleasure is obviously faked, and because I don't want to wipe ejaculate out of my eye or have someone try to slap and twist my breasts like they're trying to tune a particularly irksome radio, and I don't get any pleasure out of watching anyone else experience the same.'

Find me good porn, and I'll subscribe. Find me a snippet where I'm not distracted by the actress covering winces and twitches as she adjusts herself to minimise discomfort while getting rooted as delicately as the police breaking down the door of a crackhouse.

Find me amateur porn that isn't some skinny bloke with a pot belly and his socks on standing in his own bedroom with Van Halen posters all over the walls, getting blown by a girl who's so bored she's checking her watch. (Of course this movie is redeemed by him cumming on her face at the end! WHAT JOY!!)

I'm not anti-porn. I'm anti crap-porn.

Could not agree more. I've been told that there is good paid porn out there but I've never been bothered.

Catari Jaguar

What about amateur porn? Made willingly by the people, for the people... Normal girls - every size, every fetish, doing it because they enjoy it. That's not fake or degrading or prostitution because they're making it for free. Even, shockingly, making it while in a loving, fulfilling, comitted relationship.

Doors open from porn - it's freedom of sexual expression. Morality doesn't come into so primal. You like clowns? There's clown porn, old dude & young chick, yeah that too, fekn doll porn, shoe porn... You're not a freak anymore congrats!

Srly, do men even watch badly scripted, big titted, overly endowed man & blonde bimbo fake ass porn anymore?!

And if those skinny, pouty emo kids on FB/ Bebo are anything to go by, it'd be hard to find a teenage girl that hasn't cammed/ uploaded topless pics of themselves to the internet.

Everyone (mostly) does it, they pretend not to.

optogirl

cherub rock wrote: »

Everyone (mostly) does it, they pretend not to.

I wouldn't even say mostly but yes it happens

gargleblaster

I tend to agree with her, actually.

I don't think she hates herself at all, where is that impression coming from?

What I think is that she experiences porn-like things in bed, and then wonders how genuine is it? How organic? How much is just monkey see monkey do?

Furthermore I think it's impossible to see this issue from outside the sexist world we have all grown up in. Due to living in this our entire lives, we have no idea what it would be like if people weren't viewed as bodies but as people.

I feel like I have to note that I'm no prude. I have used porn, used to love it actually. Like the poster said before, it gets old. But it wasn't boredom that made me become anti-porn. It was the constant madonna/whore crap. Until society stops treating women like objects, I doubt I'll be able to enjoy it. Fair disclosure I still do enjoy some stuff, but only very specific things. The overwhelming majority of it is just impossible to enjoy because of the way society treats women. And yes, I do mean just women. Gay men can apparently be in porn and somehow a large percentage of the population doesn't rant about how awful and disgusting and cheap they are for doing it.

cherub rock wrote: »

Srly, do men even watch badly scripted, big titted, overly endowed man & blonde bimbo fake ass porn anymore?!

Yes. Yes they do. In fact that is overwhelmingly the most popular kind. Abuse porn is right up there as well. Apparently very many people like to see a woman get choked, degraded, slapped, etc.

Count Duckula

It seems to me that some people get the line blurred between seeing a woman as an object with her value in her body, and finding her attractive and arousing.

When I'm with my girlfriend, I find the sight of her arousing. When we have sex I want to do nothing but look at how gorgeous she is. Am I treating her like an object in this scenario? Is this degrading?

I have no qualms whatsoever with attacking pornography that exists only to humiliate women and to objectify them, with exaggerated assets and appealing to the lowest common denominator. But I do wonder sometimes if people find the idea of any man being aroused by any woman as degrading simply because he finds her arousing; as if he is seeing her only as an object of his desire and that this will spill over into his treatment and opinion of women in general.

I respect my girlfriend more than anyone in the world - she's the woman I love, after all - but that doesn't mean I can't be insatiably turned on by the sight of her.

krudler

Count Duckula wrote: »

It seems to me that some people get the line blurred between seeing a woman as an object with her value in her body, and finding her attractive and arousing.

When I'm with my girlfriend, I find the sight of her arousing. When we have sex I want to do nothing but look at how gorgeous she is. Am I treating her like an object in this scenario? Is this degrading?

I have no qualms whatsoever with attacking pornography that exists only to humiliate women and to objectify them, with exaggerated assets and appealing to the lowest common denominator. But I do wonder sometimes if people find the idea of any man being aroused by any woman as degrading simply because he finds her arousing; as if he is seeing her only as an object of his desire and that this will spill over into his treatment and opinion of women in general.

I respect my girlfriend more than anyone in the world - she's the woman I love, after all - but that doesn't mean I can't be insatiably turned on by the sight of her.

I wouldnt want to date someone I wasnt turned on at the sight of by tbh, its a massive part of a relationship being physically attracted to each other

Pyr0

cherub rock wrote: »

Srly, do men even watch badly scripted, big titted, overly endowed man & blonde bimbo fake ass porn anymore?!

It's probably the most boring type of porn out there tbh.

Logical Fallacy

gargleblaster wrote: »

I don't think she hates herself at all, where is that impression coming from?

I didn't say she was hating herself, it all just reads like she is severely doubting what she herself wants.

So how is it, that I have somehow absorbed the messages from society about what it is I find sexy and what it is that I exist for? How is it, that during intimate moments I think or say things which feel like implanted thoughts and words, which are removed from any authentic personal erotic experience?

That's the line that gives it away for me. Sex is pretty simple, you like what you like, if you don't like something...and don't enjoy it, then don't do it.

If you do enjoy something, genuinely, why the worry about where you picked it up from?

Bottle_of_Smoke

(I am leaving the endless stream of objectified women in advertising, with their pornified orgasm faces and their idealised bodies out of it for now)

I actually think this is much worse than porn, or even strip clubs. At least with those one has to look them up. With advertising its a constant exposure you can't get away from.

28064212

gargleblaster wrote: »

Yes. Yes they do. In fact that is overwhelmingly the most popular kind. Abuse porn is right up there as well. Apparently very many people like to see a woman get choked, degraded, slapped, etc.

Those are some fairly emphatic statements without anything to back them up. Femdom porn is a hugely popular area. So is amature/'real-life' porn. And one of the more common female fantasies is being raped/overpowered/forced (source), so I'd imagine at least some of the customers of "abuse porn" are women.

My biggest problem with the anti-porn position is this: it's about making decisions for other people. The opposite of anti-porn is not someone who enjoys porn; it's someone who thinks everyone should have to enjoy porn. That's the equally unreasonable flip-side.

I don't care whether this woman in the OP enjoys porn or not. That's up to her. What I have a problem with is her thinking that I'm wrong to enjoy it, her deciding that the people in it are wrong.

gargleblaster

As for popularity, all it takes is a look at what is produced. Yes, there are many types of porn which are also popular, but money talks, and the majority of money is spent on the type that is the most popular, and that is not femdom. Amateur doesn't even come close. Does no one else surf for porn? This isn't earthshaking news. It's just obvious to anyone who is into porn.

I never even hinted that women didn't like abuse porn. I used to be one of them, actually.

I understand your point about being anti- meaning I'm trying to say nobody else should enjoy it. But look at it logically, I used to enjoy it myself. What kind of a hypocrite would I be to say it should all be made illegal and anybody who likes it is wrong? Maybe I shouldn't jump on the 'anti-' bandwagon if that's what it really means. All I mean is that IMO we need to educate people about equality between the sexes before I could ever enjoy pron again, myself. As it stands now it's just a minefield of nastiness, with some bright spots sprinkled here and there. Again just IMO.

parker kent

gargleblaster wrote: »

Yes. Yes they do. In fact that is overwhelmingly the most popular kind. Abuse porn is right up there as well. Apparently very many people like to see a woman get choked, degraded, slapped, etc.

I'm not being a knob, but are there stats or reports to back that up? I'd be surprised if the porn cherub rock mentioned as being out dated was the most popular. Is it even something that can be statistically proven? If you are basing it on porn that is paid for, that ignores free porn. So the stats would be drawn from an audience more likely to enjoy that type of porn. I imagine free porn is more widely watched than paid material and that the pneumatic blonde, fake boobed girl with bad make-up is not as popular as people watching amateur porn.

I'm just wondering where and what you are basing that on.

On a slightly related note, I read this a few weeks ago and had pondered posting it on Boards. It is a good read IMO. I don't think it is too OT, mods feel free to scold me if you think otherwise :P I think web searches are a decent way of analysing porn on the internet (although there are issues with using searches as a source too)

Mind Reading: The Researchers Who Analyzed All the Porn on the Internet

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/19/mind-reading-the-researchers-who-analyzed-all-the-porn-on-the-internet/#ixzz1OtRuIAjI

Searching all the porn on the Internet might not seem like the most scientifically productive activity, but computational neuroscientists Ogi Ogas and Sai Gaddam did it anyway.

For their new book, A Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the World's Largest Experiment Reveals about Human Desire, Ogas and Gaddam analyzed the results of 400 million online searches for porn and uncovered some startling insights into what men and women may really want from each other — at least sexually. I spoke recently with Ogas.

Why did you decide to analyze online porn searches?

I'm a computational neuroscientist. I view the mind as software. Most computational neuroscientists study higher functions like memory, language and vision. We wanted to apply the same techniques to a lower part of the brain, the sexual part.

So is "Rule 34" true — that if you can imagine it, there's porn of it?

When we first started, Rule 34 was almost a guiding idea. The Internet has every kind of imaginable porn; searches are going to reflect immense diversity. We quickly realized that [the data] didn't really support that.

Even though you can find an instance of any kind of porn you can imagine, people search for and spend money and time on 20 sexual interests, which account for 80% of all porn. The top five are youth, gays, [sexy mothers], breasts and cheating wives.

Why are cheating wives so popular? You'd expect that would not be something men would like to think about.

It's one of the top interests all around the world. Men are wired to be sexually jealous. And, certainly, men can fly into murderous rages, but simultaneously they're also sexually aroused.

This is an example of what biologists call a sperm competition cue. Across the animal kingdom, when males see other males mating, it tends to provoke arousal. If he is going to compete with the other male, he has to produce more sperm

Human men also respond like this, if a man sees a woman — including his partner — with another man, he becomes more aroused.

There's been a lot of concern that porn is getting more violent and more misogynistic and that the Internet is making it harder for women because porn makes men want more extreme sex. What does your research show?

It's not at all more violent or misogynistic. We really looked at all porn searches. Truly violent pornography is extremely rare. It truly is rare and the kind of people who watch it are a clearly identifiable group.

So why do we keep hearing that it's getting worse and worse?

I wouldn't say there's a trend. It's been pretty consistent. There's lots of male dominant porn. He blackmails the woman into having sex; the professor seduces a student, they're having sex to get cash for schoolbooks. We think all of these are creative variations to trigger male-dominance cues [which are sexually arousing to men].

Why do the themes of dominance and submission keep recurring?

Women are often aroused by women being submissive. It's more complicated for women because of the separation between physical and psychological arousal. Women have very mixed feelings when [it comes to sexual submission]. But rape fantasies are extremely prevalent.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that women want to be raped, but doesn't the prevalence of forced sex in porn make men think that they do?

It's not teaching men to be misogynistic; it doesn't spill over into social life. It's really no different from looking at large breasts. But women react to these psychological elements and understandably and accurately see them as a kind of misogyny.

However, we're talking sex and arousal, not social politics. A rape fantasy doesn't mean a woman really wants to be raped — it's just something that turns [her] on [in the bedroom].

There are real concerns, though, that Internet porn will increase sex crimes because of the way it portrays things like that.

Anybody can do a simple thought experiment [to refute that]. In the late '60s and early '70s, feminists were saying that porn trained guys to be rapists. That was before home video, and there were probably only 100 different porn magazines in the country. You had to go to [sleazy places to watch porn]. Now there are a million websites where you can get it for free around the clock.

You would expect rape to skyrocket. There are more guys watching more porn more often. But, in fact, rape has gone down in America. Also, in Japan in the mid-'90s, they loosened their obscenity laws. Now rape is down there too. It certainly seems to be case that more access to porn is associated with less rape. Rather than making people want to go out and rape, it satisfies the urge.

What types of porn are most popular for men?

It's youth by a wide margin, like cheerleaders. But we were surprised to find that even though men prefer youth mostly, there's also a very significant interest in porn with women in their 40s, 50s and even 60s. That's called granny porn.

That's fabulous for older women who seem to have been written off by evolutionary psychology. Seriously, though, the interest appears to be completely counter to evolutionary predictions that overt signs of fertility are crucial.

Yes, we found something that overturns narrow evolutionary psychology predictions. Some of our findings require other explanations than evolutionary ones.

What do women prefer?

Women prefer stories to visual porn by a long shot. The most popular erotica for women is the romance novel. That has more punch than any other kind of erotica. The second most popular would be fan fiction. This is something that has really exploded on the Internet. These are stories written by amateurs, mostly women, about characters from pop culture, movies, books, etc.

Is this the kind of thing in which Kirk and Spock from Star Trek would have an affair?

Yes, that's called slash. Stories about two male characters are very popular. But the most popular fan fiction is about Harry Potter by a wide margin, followed by Twilight.

Why do women prefer stories and men prefer visuals?

There are two reasons. Both come down to fundamental differences between the male sexual brain and the female sexual brain. One of the most basic differences is that the male brain responds to any single sexual stimulus. A nice chest, two girls kissing, older women — if that's what they're attracted to. Any one thing will trigger arousal in a male.

Female desire requires multiple stimuli simultaneously or in quick succession. It takes more stimuli and more variety of these stimuli to trigger genuine arousal.

For a guy, the most common form of [masturbation material] is a 60-second porn clip. For a woman, it can be a 250-page novel or a 2,000-word story. That's the way to get multiple stimuli. Stories have greater flexibility to offer a greater variety of stimuli.

In male erotica, sex appears in the first one-quarter of the story [or film]. For women, it's halfway in. There's more time to develop the character before sex.

How else does male and female sexuality differ?

Another fundamental difference between men and women — perhaps the most important defining difference — is that in the male brain, physical and psychological arousal are united. If a man is physically turned on, he's mentally turned on too.

With women, physical arousal and mental arousal are separate. [Research finds that women get physically aroused sometimes even when they find the situation disgusting.] The female brain is designed to be cautious, most likely because historically the woman who slept with the first guy she met might have a harder time raising children; he might not stick around. Women are designed to be cautious and gather more information.

That's why fan fiction is all about exploring the emotions and character of the hero. In romance novels, the heroine learns about the secret inner life of the hero. That's especially true in slash: that's doubling up. There are two men — two masculine, strong alpha males who reveal their tender side. The emotional process of revealing true character is what's so appealing to women.

Why would straight men want to watch lesbians, and why would women write stories about gay men?

[Straight] guys are turn on by lesbians because it's a doubling of visual cues. And one psychological cue for arousal in men is female sexual pleasure. Seeing lesbians kissing doubles that too.

For women in slash fiction, it's the psychological cues of a man's character, stature, passion and emotional communication — slash doubles those.

What's up with men's interest in mothers?

It's not so much that they're moms, but that they're older women. They are usually portrayed as aggressive and seductive. They are not timid. They're quite confident and bold. Men who like that like the idea of an innocent younger man being seduced or taught by an older woman.

Did you find evidence that porn is addictive?

We looked at individual search histories for half a million people using an AOL data set [which does not identify the users]. It seems to be less than 2% of people, among the people who search for porn, who have a significantly elevated number of searches.

And there's a [shared] characteristic among these searchers: they search for a really wide variety of porn, which is atypical. Usually, people search for the same things over and over. But these people who search for notably more porn tend to search for [many different things].

Two things tend to show up in these searches, oddly: bestiality and granny porn. There's clearly something different about that group. Having said that, there isn't overwhelming evidence that porn addiction exists. Probably the best way to define whether it's a problem is if you want to stop and you can't.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/19/mind-reading-the-researchers-who-analyzed-all-the-porn-on-the-internet/

Also, Bluewolf has said everything I thought of when I read the letter. So +1000 to her posts!

gargleblaster

parker kent wrote: »

I'm not being a knob, but are there stats or reports to back that up? I'd be surprised if the porn cherub rock mentioned as being out dated was the most popular. Is it even something that can be statistically proven? If you are basing it on porn that is paid for, that ignores free porn. So the stats would be drawn from an audience more likely to enjoy that type of porn. I imagine free porn is more widely watched than paid material and that the pneumatic blonde, fake boobed girl with bad make-up is not as popular as people watching amateur porn.

I'm just wondering where and what you are basing that on.

Just surfing for porn. And not just pay porn is dominated by that stuff. Have you checked redtube lately? Go on, check the highest rated and most popular stuff. There are any number of sites for porn, and if they aren't specialized sites, then the most popular stuff is bar none the stuff with young ladies who all look like the kind of girls who most men would define as 'hot' (i.e. the ones that some people like to call 'plastic').

And it only makes sense, really. If you're trying to get clicks to get revenue for adspace, then you want to appeal to the broadest demographic possible. So if amateur was really so popular, it would be prevalent, or mature porn, or whatever else. That's simply not the case. As the article you just posted cites, it's overwhelmingly cheerleaders / young women. I would bet you my last dollar they aren't talking about 'average looking' young women.

It's kinda like asking for proof that most women's magazines show glamorized pictures. It's right there staring you in the face. Look at the nudie magazines. Are they dominated by average looking women or stereotypically hot ('plastic') ones? I'm not sure how this is even in doubt really.


Edited to add that when I say "hot" that may not line up with anyone else's definition of "hot". However, that doesn't mean all the porn that a particular person would like to label as bad has fake blondes with big tits or however a person would like to categorize it.

I don't see how dividing porn up into fake blondes with lots of make up and fake tits vs. all other kinds even makes any difference really. It's overwhelmingly going to involve women whom most men (and women) would like to look at (and if we include gay porn then it will be more likely to involve hot men), and the average person next door isn't the most popular type.

IvyTheTerrible

The Sweeper wrote: »

I am not uncomfortable with porn.


I am bored with it.

I am bored with watching a heavily made up young woman moan with pleasure when she gets ejaculate in her eye.

Ooooh yea? ...isn't it more like 'oooo, ouch, shit that stings, ow ow ow /blinkblinkblink'

Of course you do realise that cumming on someone's face has become the latest greatest sexual thing because cumming inside someone vaginally, anally or orally isn't as good on film...

I could go on, but there seems to be a major confusion between 'I'm Mary Whitehouse' and 'I don't like porn because I think it's really fucking boring, the positions appear painful, there is little lust or grace portrayed, the pleasure is obviously faked, and because I don't want to wipe ejaculate out of my eye or have someone try to slap and twist my breasts like they're trying to tune a particularly irksome radio, and I don't get any pleasure out of watching anyone else experience the same.'

Find me good porn, and I'll subscribe. Find me a snippet where I'm not distracted by the actress covering winces and twitches as she adjusts herself to minimise discomfort while getting rooted as delicately as the police breaking down the door of a crackhouse.

Find me amateur porn that isn't some skinny bloke with a pot belly and his socks on standing in his own bedroom with Van Halen posters all over the walls, getting blown by a girl who's so bored she's checking her watch. (Of course this movie is redeemed by him cumming on her face at the end! WHAT JOY!!)

I'm not anti-porn. I'm anti crap-porn.

Wow, sing it sister. I know I'm not anti-porn either but I never really enjoyed looking at it and this post articulates what I've been feeling.

parker kent

gargleblaster wrote: »

Just surfing for porn. And not just pay porn is dominated by that stuff. Have you checked redtube lately? Go on, check the highest rated and most popular stuff. There are any number of sites for porn, and if they aren't specialized sites, then the most popular stuff is bar none the stuff with young ladies who all look like the kind of girls who most men would define as 'hot' (i.e. the ones that some people like to call 'plastic').

And it only makes sense, really. If you're trying to get clicks to get revenue for adspace, then you want to appeal to the broadest demographic possible. So if amateur was really so popular, it would be prevalent, or mature porn, or whatever else. That's simply not the case. As the article you just posted cites, it's overwhelmingly cheerleaders / young women. I would bet you my last dollar they aren't talking about 'average looking' young women.

It's kinda like asking for proof that most women's magazines show glamorized pictures. It's right there staring you in the face. Look at the nudie magazines. Are they dominated by average looking women or stereotypically hot ('plastic') ones? I'm not sure how this is even in doubt really.

I think you are looking at the wrong sites tbh! You may have an unsual image of what porn on the internet is like from your experiences. But your experiences may not necessarily be indicative of what it is like for many other people. But amateur porn clearly is popular. You may just not be aware of where people look.

Also, young women (or cheerleaders) does not mean the stereotypical "porn star". If anything, it could be used to support the amateur porn argument. I never claimed that men don't want to look at attractive women. Women having "normal" sex can be extremely attractive. I think we are having a failure to communicate!

Also "nudie" magazines equals paid porn. Produced and aimed at a distinct market.

Edit: Also, I think we are having big differences in terms of labelling people. Hot does not equal "plastic".

gargleblaster

parker kent wrote: »

I think you are looking at the wrong sites tbh! You may have an unsual image of what porn on the internet is like from your experiences. But your experiences may not necessarily be indicative of what it is like for many other people. But amateur porn clearly is popular. You may just not be aware of where people look.

Also, young women (or cheerleaders) does not mean the stereotypical "porn star". If anything, it could be used to support the amateur porn argument. I never claimed that men don't want to look at attractive women. Women having "normal" sex can be extremely attractive. I think we are having a failure to communicate!

Also "nudie" magazines equals paid porn. Produced and aimed at a distinct market.

I agree. I'm not sure where the idea of whether the women looked plastic or real ever came into it tbh. Or whether the sex was "normal" or not.

People seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the woman who wrote this (must think only missionary is best, must have been treated poorly, etc.) and I don't know why really. The points she raised don't center around abuse porn, nor do they center around the plastic look.

She is saying that she thinks that maybe porn is becoming too everpresent an influence, and I agree. I can't go into AH anymore for fear of seeing certain types of threads or comments. Apparently the pwetty girls thread had to be closed, and I have to wonder why. I think I have a good idea. Women don't talk about men the way men talk about women. There is a harshness that seems to have come along with the pornification of society, and if there was more understanding between the sexes then I don't think it would be there.

As for the sites I'm visiting being "the wrong" ones, please, by all means PM me the URLs for the sites where the amateur stuff is the most popular. Not specialty sites though as that of course doesn't prove a thing. I mean sites that feature all kinds, but it's the amateur stuff that's top-rated and most popular. If you can't do that I don't see how your argument holds any water tbh.


Edited to add a question - why does whether it's paid or not matter so much? How does that affect your argument either way? Could you please clarify what point it is you're trying to make by separating paid-for porn vs. free porn?

Logical Fallacy

gargleblaster wrote: »

Just surfing for porn. And not just pay porn is dominated by that stuff. Have you checked redtube lately? Go on, check the highest rated and most popular stuff.

Check the comments though and you'll find a lot of women talking about how hot that stuff is.

Or at least i saw it there when i had a look.

Some seriously crap porn to be found.

It would be just as easy to argue that these types of porn are so popular because people have the fantasy but may not feel comfortable expressing it. It's always fairly easy to confuse cause and effect when it comes to people.

parker kent

gargleblaster wrote: »

Edited to add a question - why does whether it's paid or not matter so much? How does that affect your argument either way? Could you please clarify what point it is you're trying to make by separating paid-for porn vs. free porn?

People that go to the bother of paying for porn are far more likely to be buying porn that is produced, so any stats about paid porn are obviously skewed in favour of professional porn. Professional porn is far more likely to feature the types referred to in Cherub Rock's post. Amateur porn is free 99% of the time. Porn that is paid for is far easier to track for the purpose of stats. Free porn is much more difficult to track.

As for the websites, there's no point saying "look at this site, look at that site". There are so many sites out there. A site that is solely amateur porn may get more hits than a site that is a catch-all site. For that argument to mean anything, you'd need to see how many hits each site gets. What I can say is that user generated sites are the most popular on the Internet and that traditional porn producers are facing a future with far less profits. http://www.xbiz.com/articles/92416

gargleblaster

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Check the comments though and you'll find a lot of women talking about how hot that stuff is.

Why does this matter? Both men and women like porn, though a lot more men than women like it. This isn't really being debated is it?

The article posted made a lot of generalizations about what's more popular with whom but those are of course all genearlizations. I'm certainly not trying to claim women don't like x kind of porn. That'd be just idiotic.


parker kent my question is more: Why are we now discussing and debating cherub rock's post? It's neither here nor there from what I got in respect to the OP, which seemed to focus more on the effect that porn has had on both society in general as well as relationships between men and women.

And thanks for the URL. I'm curious now about this claim that amateur-only sites get more hits than other types. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just like knowing whether or not my perceptions are accurate. I know there are places that track website hits, so I might be doing a little research.