BJJ WORLDS

arybvtcw0eolkf

Lads, tone it down a little and bare in mind that one of our own must be up the walls over this.

Its clear at this stage that Chris followed a very influential coaches directions in dropping back to white belt... So can we cut Chris a little slack please.

We all think we'd have done differently, but at a worlds and at the insistence of a coach of such influence we don't honestly know that we wouldn't have done the same - put simply we weren't there, but whats clear is that the decision wasn't Chris's alone.

Chris has been on the ropes for the last few days now, give him a little breathing space - why he's being left to deal with this alone beats the bejaysus out of me.

So thats it, just let up on the lad for abit ok - pretty please

da-bres

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

I've read every line of this thread and its plain as day.

All you are are an anonymous user name reading opinionated information on a forum, you have no idea who any of these people are, their situations, their causes. You probably don't know anything about jiu jitsu in general.

your speculating and judging Irish athletes on the MMA and selfdefense forum who a. you don't know and b. train 6 hours a day 6 days a week, your comments are that of begrudgery and contempt. I for one don't welcome them.

r_obric

Doug Cartel wrote: »

This kind of brings me to a point/question that I've wanted to post for a while now, but didn't because I'm afraid it's going to come off wrong and make me sound like a dick. OK, here goes:

Why does the "World Championship" have belt divisions at all? Shouldn't it just be weight categories? (Inc open weight.) Is there any other sport where you can be World Champion (beginner), or World Champion (intermediate)?

it gives people the chance to compete i guess where the competition is level, becasue at the blue, purple and brown belts it does seem to be, a 19 year old won 2 golds in the purple belt afair, you dont have world champion beginner or intermediate, you have it by weight and belt.

There are a lot of people who may never reach black belt and having the chance to compete on that stage is a great incentive.

Doug Cartel

r_obric wrote: »

it gives people the chance to compete i guess where the competition is level, becasue at the blue, purple and brown belts it does seem to be, a 19 year old won 2 golds in the purple belt afair, you dont have world champion beginner or intermediate, you have it by weight and belt.

There are a lot of people who may never reach black belt and having the chance to compete on that stage is a great incentive.

If you want a chance to compete against relatively even oponents, there are local competitions where you can do this. International competition should be about the best of the best, not best of the people within a range of your skill level.

Sid_Justice

Doug if you're asking why BJJ world championships have belt divisions you don't understand BJJ.

Doug Cartel

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Doug if you're asking why BJJ world championships have belt divisions you don't understand BJJ.

Clearly I don't.

ryoishin

Perhaps ask on Jiu Jitsu University facebook page ad see if Saulo gives his view.

Would the sport benefit from having two separate grading systems for gi and no-gi?

arybvtcw0eolkf

ryoishin wrote: »

Would the sport benefit from having two separate grading systems for gi and no-gi?

Or maybe just call NoGi 'Sub Wrestling'

BJJRevSS

dasmoose wrote: »

I don't count then do i ?]

Sorry Shane / Mark,

Why would u count Mark, from wat iv read your trying to be a friend more than commenting on the issue ? Im not talking about me r u mark as senior players, but the 2 Black belts and 3brown belts who have ther own club/teams and c what ther view is?

Shane Fitz

Mick, I counted Mark, as well as you and Barry as the 3 most senior belts (purples)to have contributed, that is all.I'm open to correction on this. I know Andy opened the thread tho.
As for being a friend, well whats the use in poniting fingers and calling names? Chris has accepted responsibility for the decision, now we should move passed that and try figure out where that now puts all those with no-Gi grades. Lots of people have very publically questioned Chris, but I've yet to see anyone call out Darragh, who as Chris' coach is responsible too... but that would not be constructive, would it?

As for the other gym owners offering opinion, they must decide for themselves whether to contribute or not, BUT i do think JK and/or Andy in their capacity as officers if the IBJJA should come out and say something

BJJRevSS

To Shane, what I meant was the people that count are the seniors/executives. I wrote that wrongly, sorry about that, I came across wrong. I was excluding myself and Mark from the senior players.

NG-DOC

As Chris' coach and the person responsible for Chris' decision to wear a white belt and compete at white belt, i would like to voice my opinion on this matter.

Firstly, all the negative comments towards Chris and what he did, should in fact be directed at me. As Chris' coach, I am responsible for what has happened and from now on i would like all issues with this to be directed at me and not him.

This matter in my opinion is extremely complex and is almost impossible to fully discuss through an internet forum. So, I will do my best to explain my position and my decision. If you don't agree with what i have to say, that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion on this no matter who you are. But i would like to reinforce, that if you truly care about this issue, to come and discuss it with me in person. I genuinely mean that and not in any sort of threatening way. I would be more than happy to explain my position in person as i feel it would be much easier to do so.

With all that out of the way, here is why i told Chris to do what he did.

Due to my experience in training both, I believe Gi and Nogi are different. Despite multiple similarity's in basic positions, points of control and even submissions. The two games are different and that is impossible to deny. If they weren't different, you would be able to enter a gi division wearing nogi and vice versa. I don't know where people are getting their information regarding the IBJJF and their stance on BJJ grades (could you post a link or a quote if possible). But to me, BJJ with a gi on is not the same as BJJ without one. If it does state somewhere in the IBJJFs manifesto that they are in fact the same and grades transfer, then to me that makes no sense. Judo and wrestling are similar but different just as BJJ and Nogi are.

I am not for one minute disregarding or disrespecting Chris Brennan and his system. I just believe the rank he awarded Chris in his nogi system, did not make him equivalent level in gi BJJ. The question has been raised as to why i wear my purple belt. This, to me is a separate issue and if you would like answers to this, please message me privately.

Why did Chris compete in two Irish Gi tournaments at blue belt level? The first was while Chris was under the coaching of David Jones and was not my decision. He borrowed a gi and belt to do the tournament and fought without ever training in a gi. Chris lost his first match. The second tournament, was under my coaching and was based on the following. Chris was wearing a white belt in training and i believed he was still a white belt in gi BJJ despite his previous nogi experience. But given he had already competed at blue in Ireland (and had he even attempted to enter white it would have undoubtedly been discussed here as an outrage) i told him to do blue. He won one match, lost his second.

Why then did i tell Chris to compete at white belt at worlds? Because i believed Chris was still a white belt (although now after 6 months full time training 3 times a day, in my opinion, nearly a blue belt) and as the highest level of competition for white belts, that this would be the appropriate challenge. I can post the matches Chris fought if needs be and you can decide for yourself if it was challenging.

To me, gi and nogi are different. Someone asked if Chris Brennans grades should be on BJJ.ie or if they should be recognised at all as BJJ grades. The problem with this is as follows. Yes Chris Brennan is an IBJJF certified BJJ black belt, qualified to the highest level to award belts in BJJ. If he tells someone they are a belt, that is something that cannot be denied since he is recognised by the federation as able to award them. What i don't know, is that if the federation knew he was awarding belts to people who had never trained in a gi, would it still be ok? If it turns out that this is still ok, and that the federation believe the grades transfer appropriately from nogi to gi. Then i still hold the same opinion. Gi and Nogi are different, and grades are not transferable. That is my own opinion and if you believe any different, then we will have to agree to disagree.

Again, i am not disregarding or disrespecting Chris Brennans nogi system, i am simply stating that in my opinion, a grade in it, is not equivalent to a Gi BJJ grade. While it may give you the ability to under certain circumstances beat a gi BJJ player of any level in competition, to me this is no different to an olympic wrestler or Judo black belt doing the same. Sure they have sufficient grappling experience to beat a BJJ player in a BJJ tournament, but this does not mean they have sufficient knowledge to hold the rank they beat. If you believe BJJ ranks are based purely on the ability to beat people, then you and I disagree on what makes a BJJ grade.

So, in summary. I am the one who told Chris to do what he did and has done. I have done my best to explain my stance, beliefs and reasons behind why i did this. Hopefully it has come across appropriately and it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense please feel free to ask any questions and again i will do my best to answer them.

However, please realise that at the end of the day, this comes down to whether or not you believe gi and nogi to be different. I have no problem with anybody who believes them to be the same, so i ask for the same respect regarding my own opinion.

Darragh

TEAM RYANO

i dont think the problem is the gi nogi debate ,its the fact he fought in a couple of bjj GI comps and as a blue belt.
i have a couple of guys who train with me and are blue belts they got them before joining up with me .they are not as good as some of my guys but i did not demote them as the y were given the grade by a black belt .
the problem is he fought at blue then went back to white.
i hope we can wrap this up asap and get on with promoting our sport.
cheers andy ryan.

Shane Fitz

TEAM RYANO wrote: »

i dont think the problem is the gi nogi debate ,its the fact he fought in a couple of bjj GI comps and as a blue belt.
i have a couple of guys who train with me and are blue belts they got them before joining up with me .they are not as good as some of my guys but i did not demote them as the y were given the grade by a black belt .
the problem is he fought at blue then went back to white.
i hope we can wrap this up asap and get on with promoting our sport.
cheers andy ryan.

Which sport Andy? Because if 1 thing has come from all this, many people consider Gi and no-Gi as to be two seperate sports. And to be graded as such. It was the basis for Darragh's decision.

NG-DOC

TEAM RYANO wrote: »

the problem is he fought at blue then went back to white.

If this is the only problem, i believe my previous post outlined sufficiently my reasons for what was done.

If people believe what i did was wrong, then so be it and let us move on and just like you said continue promoting our sport.

TEAM RYANO

this is my last comment on the subject.
ive asked around and its not unusual for some bjj players to get demoted when they join a different team,
darragh has come out and said his side.
for me its closed now i think if darragh had said this at the start we would not be still talking about it.
cheers guys and best of luck with your bjj onwards and upwards for irish bjj

OLDMAN1

If this was any other combat sport bjj people would be calling it like it is and would be slaging them off, But because its BJJ, you brush it away and make excuses, Thats my honest opinion and not a attack on anyone, you guys need to get you house in order...

_oveless

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

If this was any other combat sport bjj people would be calling it like it is and would be slaging them off, But because its BJJ, you brush it away and make excuses, Thats my honest opinion and not a attack on anyone, you guys need to get you house in order...

Well from another non bjj guy as I see it it's their house they can do what they like with it.

Killme00

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

If this was any other combat sport bjj people would be calling it like it is and would be slaging them off, But because its BJJ, you brush it away and make excuses, Thats my honest opinion and not a attack on anyone, you guys need to get you house in order...

The BJJ community hasnt reached six degrees (and beyond) of seperation of some other combat sports. It's also not necessary to go slagging someone off to make your point. Civility goes a long way especially when there is no consensus amoung those effected by an issue. This issue hasnt been brushed away either, everyone is aware of the implications.

I guess you'd prefer to see drama and slagging someone off? Don't bother answering.

OLDMAN1

Killme00 wrote: »

I guess you'd prefer to see drama and slagging someone off? Don't bother answering.

No thats not what i wanted to see, What i would have liked to see happen was for the Irish BJJ Association to come forward early and say.
(1) yes that is ok under ??? rule
or
(2) no that not ok under ??? rule

not someones opinion, what the rules state...

Killme00

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

No thats not what i wanted to see, What i would have liked to see happen was for the Irish BJJ Association to come forward early and say.
(1) yes that is ok under ??? rule
or
(2) no that not ok under ??? rule

not someones opinion, what the rules state...

So, why didnt you say that instead of

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

If this was any other combat sport bjj people would be calling it like it is and would be slaging them off, But because its BJJ, you brush it away and make excuses, Thats my honest opinion and not a attack on anyone, you guys need to get you house in order...

In the future we may see a define set of guidelines for tranferring noGi grades to Gi and vice versa but as yet it hasnt even been defined.

OLDMAN1

I did in post no.76, But i still stand by this statement...

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

If this was any other combat sport bjj people would be calling it like it is and would be slaging them off, But because its BJJ, you brush it away and make excuses, Thats my honest opinion and not a attack on anyone, you guys need to get you house in order...

Shane Fitz

Killme00 wrote: »

In the future we may see a definative set of guidelines for tranferring noGi grades to Gi and vice versa but as yet it hasnt even been defined.

Agreed, but for a Puple Belt coach, to arbitrarily decide, based on his own opinion, to not transfare a noGi blue, to Gi competition was at best going to invite debate, if not calls of out right cheating.

Darragh is more than entitled to his opinion on the merits of Gi vs no-Gi grades, and has explained as much. But to act on those opinions in the absence of clear direction from the IBJJF, or Next Gen was I think irresponsible.

Just because the IBJJF manifesto does not say specifically that Gi and no-Gi are the same sport, does not allow one to assume they are different. I could just as easily say, because the IBBJF does not make a distinction, I can assume they are the same.

Anyway, it all boils down to opinion, and without a definative response/answer for either the IBJJF or the IBJJA, we'll just keep going around in circles, based our understanding of what is BJJ.

Barry.Oglesby

NG-DOC wrote: »

If this is the only problem, i believe my previous post outlined sufficiently my reasons for what was done.

If people believe what i did was wrong, then so be it and let us move on and just like you said continue promoting our sport.

I think it's pretty academic at this stage as it's fairly unlikely Chris will be a BJJ white belt for very long.

Regardless, I think we have enough division in the very small Irish scene and I doubt anyone with any stake in the whole thing will allow what is a difference of opinion to derail the very positive steps Irish BJJ has been taking in the last while.

Onwards.

Shane Fitz

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think it's pretty academic at this stage as it's fairly unlikely Chris will be a BJJ white belt for very long.

Regardless, I think we have enough division in the very small Irish scene and I doubt anyone with any stake in the whole thing will allow what is a difference of opinion to derail the very positive steps Irish BJJ has been taking in the last while.

Onwards.

Ok, so we're returning to the accepted convention of no-Gi grades transfering to Gi competition, or not?
Do we ignore the fact that a precedant has been set, is it suficient to say "lets all agree to disagree"?? If so then so be it.

.... who am I to question my seniors?

NG-DOC

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Agreed, but for a Puple Belt coach, to arbitrarily decide, based on his own opinion, to not transfare a noGi blue, to Gi competition was at best going to invite debate, if not calls of out right cheating.

Darragh is more than entitled to his opinion on the merits of Gi vs no-Gi grades, and has explained as much. But to act on those opinions in the absence of clear direction from the IBJJF, or Next Gen was I think irresponsible.

Just because the IBJJF manifesto does not say specifically that Gi and no-Gi are the same sport, does not allow one to assume they are different. I could just as easily say, because the IBBJF does not make a distinction, I can assume they are the same.

Anyway, it all boils down to opinion, and without a definative response/answer for either the IBJJF or the IBJJA, we'll just keep going around in circles, based our understanding of what is BJJ.

My decision was far from arbitrary, which i presumed came across in my extensive post on the matter.

Can i ask what would you like to come of this Shane?

Barry.Oglesby

What accepted convention? The belt list everyone's talking about is on BJJ.ie, which is an excellent website run by people who are interested in the sport in Ireland, but nothing official. The IBJJA exists but hasn't really done anything since it's inception bar a couple of tournaments so I can't see them coming up with any rules regarding grades in gi or nogi. I've never seen any literature from the IBJJF that states anything regarding grades.

Darragh has given his explanation on the matter, and while I disagree with his reading of the situation I think I'll talk to him about it the next time I see him face to face, as I think this thread is actually becoming just a vehicle for people who don't understand the sport to snipe. OLDMAN isn't involved in BJJ, Niall Keane isn't involved in BJJ, MMAIRELANDFAN isn't involved in BJJ, so when we're talking about gi vs. Nogi grades they don't know what we're on about but since this is an open forum they can wantonly accuse people of cheating willy nilly without understanding the rules. I don't think that's fair on Chris or his team regardless of my opinion.

I don't think this is right, but I think the rules are to blame here, not anyone else.

Shane Fitz

NG-DOC wrote: »

My decision was far from arbitrary, which i presumed came across in my extensive post on the matter.

Can i ask what would you like to come of this Shane?

But you acted arbitrarilly, or so it seems to me.
Simple direction, on whether someone who has graded no-Gi must transfare to that grade for Gi comp or not. Are no-Gi grades still considered the equivelant to Gi grades.?
Or are we to now use your model, where if the consensus is they are two different games and require two different grading standards?
Or is it to be a case by case basis?
At the moment, no-Gi grades are regard as egual to Gi grades for the purpose of competition. Your actions have turned that on its head.

I'll pose you a question, which does not need to be answered publically, but consider it please?
What happens to the next Next Gen Blue t-shirt who wants to compete in a Gi tournie? Does he go in as a Blue or a White, how do we decide?

Shane Fitz

Ok Barry, fair enough...

The convention I spoke of was the listing of Gi and no-Gi grades on the same list, and that list being the reference point for checking grades for the purpose of competition.. if I'm in error I apologise. I have not once called Chriss or Darragh a cheat. I have accepted Darragh's explaination, as readily as Chris', and have tried to move beyond what has happend, and onto where do we go from now. You know me well enough to know that I say nothing here I wont in person either.

Barry.Oglesby

The "list" is compiled by fans of the sport as an easy reference point. It's not some official line to refer back to. I'd imagine there's a lot missing from it from guys who are travelling etc.