BJJ WORLDS

Barry.Oglesby

Chris89 wrote: »

Dont be so sure about that barry, I have no idea of the credentials of the guys that bet me, i was beaten well by a guy wearing a white belt in the white belt division. Every one of my matches was extremely diffcult, people are talking like i went in there and absolutely murdered everyone.

I'm not saying you did. I'm just giving my opinion on the facts as I see them. I think your friends and training partners are defending you from a wobbly position based on their proximity to you which I suppose is fine, but they're also rounding on people merely for having an opinion contrary to theirs and I don't like that either.

So you say the division was very tough (as you'd expect at World's level) and others have pointed to the fact that the division is full of essentially ungraded grapplers of every creed. I don't really buy that as an excuse to drop your blue belt to be brutally honest. To me the "is it really cheating if everyone's doing it" argument is used with PEDs in sprinting and surrounding the referee in football, but it doesn't make it right.

Now you can take this from a guy who will never compete at World level (too old now!) and who really envies you for having the opportunity to go and do that. I have no ax to grind with you on any other matter and you and I get along well. I just can't see how this is fair, that's all. Now maybe it's a problem with the system as has been alluded to, and maybe you were just following orders, but from my point of view as a sportsman, I don't think it's right. That's all I'm saying.

BJJRevSS

kiad wrote: »

From what I can decipher from the above "sentence" you seem to say that Chris has been wearing a blue belt for 2 years. If you bothered to read any of his posts you can see that he said himself that he has been wearing a WHITE belt since he started training in the gi. Personally I think there is a difference between gi and nogi and they should be graded as such. Also, if a judo black belt joined a bjj school would they automatically start as a bjj black belt?

KIAD,

SORRY MY BAD, HIS BROTHERS BLUE TEAKWANDO BELT HE BORROWS WHEN HE DECIDES HE WANTS TO SIGN UP & COMPET FOR BLUE BELT DIVISIONS !

Chris89

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I'm not saying you did. I'm just giving my opinion on the facts as I see them. I think your friends and training partners are defending you from a wobbly position based on their proximity to you which I suppose is fine, but they're also rounding on people merely for having an opinion contrary to theirs and I don't like that either.

So you say the division was very tough (as you'd expect at World's level) and others have pointed to the fact that the division is full of essentially ungraded grapplers of every creed. I don't really buy that as an excuse to drop your blue belt to be brutally honest. To me the "is it really cheating if everyone's doing it" argument is used with PEDs in sprinting and surrounding the referee in football, but it doesn't make it right.

Now you can take this from a guy who will never compete at World level (too old now!) and who really envies you for having the opportunity to go and do that. I have no ax to grind with you on any other matter and you and I get along well. I just can't see how this is fair, that's all. Now maybe it's a problem with the system as has been alluded to, and maybe you were just following orders, but from my point of view as a sportsman, I don't think it's right. That's all I'm saying.

I think its no coincedence that some of the people 'supporting' me are the only people in this thread who have numerous times tested their levels on an international stage.

I could have lost my first match, maybe if i got a different draw it could have got further, or been knocked out earlier. If i did lose my first, would this still be considered unfair? What if i entered the bluebelt and lost my first match there? What would that prove?

My matches were definitely not the best displays of technique, but absolutely everything i did and everything i was trying to do, i have learned since January training with Darragh and my teammates in monkstown and in san diego. It really frustrates me that some people are putting my success down to 'being a blue belt'. I have trained at least two times every day for at least 5 days a week for the last 5 or six months and i managed to grind my way onto a podium at the biggest jiu jitsu tournament in the world.

The word disrespect is being slapped around a fair bit in here, in my opinion the opinions im reading in here are unbelievably disrespectful to Darragh, my team and the amount of work i put in to this.

I was extremely frustrated reading this thread in my hotel room the night after i fought, I have put that behind me now and cant wait to get back to training tomorrow. I have definitely changed my opinions on a number of people after this(not you Barry, you're a good skin).

Barry.Oglesby

Chris89 wrote: »

I think its no coincedence that some of the people 'supporting' me are the only people in this thread who have numerous times tested their levels on an international stage.

I don't think that's fair, and I also don't think it's a prerequisite for an understanding of what's right and wrong in sport. Also at least 3 of the people who are on the "other" side have international competition experience- Andy Ryan, Mick O'Hagan and myself.

I could have lost my first match, maybe if i got a different draw it could have got further, or been knocked out earlier. If i did lose my first, would this still be considered unfair? What if i entered the bluebelt and lost my first match there? What would that prove?

Well some would say what does entering the white belt division prove? I'm playing Devil's Advocate there, but your statement invites the question.

My matches were definitely not the best displays of technique, but absolutely everything i did and everything i was trying to do, i have learned since January training with Darragh and my teammates in monkstown and in san diego. It really frustrates me that some people are putting my success down to 'being a blue belt'. I have trained at least two times every day for at least 5 days a week for the last 5 or six months and i managed to grind my way onto a podium at the biggest jiu jitsu tournament in the world.

I don't think anyone is doing that Chris, I think people are just asking the questions that your blue belt invites. You may not like it but equally I don't like the way anyone questioning your achievement was accused of being a killjoy or worse. It's true that some people like to rain on parades but from a dispassionate point of view, I don't think people were doing that I think people were genuinely angry. I think you must have expected some of that.

There is nobody in Ireland training as hard as us

If you think so...

I was extremely frustrated reading this thread in my hotel room the night after i fought, I have put that behind me now and cant wait to get back to training tomorrow. I have definitely changed my opinions on a number of people after this(not you Barry, you're a good skin).

Enjoy your time over there. As I've said I'm envious and sometimes wish I was 22 again. No doubt it will stand to you and your full time training will mean you'll be back for more next year.

Chris89

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Well some would say what does entering the white belt division prove?

Myself, my coach and my team believe this to be the appropriate division to enter.

Killme00

Chris89 wrote: »

Myself, my coach and my team believe this to be the appropriate division to enter.

Chris, I think this is the sticking point (for me anyway). If Chris Brennan saw fit to reward your hard work up to that point with a blue belt, then should'nt you (and everyone else) believe that you are at that level?

Fair play on all the training though, you'll be wiping the mats with people when/if you come home.

On another note: How did Darragh get on?

Barry.Oglesby

Chris89 wrote: »

Myself, my coach and my team believe this to be the appropriate division to enter.

Okay. So because it's Saulo Ribeiro, this is okay. I can't see the same respect being shown if, say for example, Josie Murray had sent one of his blue belts to compete at white belt in the mundials.

Chris89

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Okay. So because it's Saulo Ribeiro, this is okay. I can't see the same respect being shown if, say for example, Josie Murray had sent one of his blue belts to compete at white belt in the mundials.

Darragh is my coach.

Also, I only know the name, does josie murray teach gi BJJ? does he award blue belts in gi bjj?

Sid_Justice

I don't know what to say. I don't want to sound like a begrudger or unsupportive. Taking a podium place in the white belt division of the bjj worlds is a great achievement for anyone training around 3 years or just over a year in the gi or what ever. I would guess (only a guess) the vast majority of Irish blue belts wouldn't have been able to do that (get a medal as white belt), I know I wouldn't. There's too much that can go wrong in a massive division like that and everyone is really blue belt standard, maybe not strictly in the technical sense but certainly in the attributes sense.

So no offense to you, but everyone competitive in the white belt division in the worlds is probably a sandbagger of some sort. In fact, I'm broadly in the opinion everyone competitive in the blue belt division is also a sandbagger. Like if you go and win the blue belt division surely you're purple belt standard, in fact aren't these some of the things certain clubs use to award promotions. Anyway that's an aside.

I don't want to hurt anyone elses feelings or expose myself as a slightly bitter **** but when I read "won white belt division" I will say to myself it's "only the white belts, blue belts would be a better achievement" or when someone says "won masters division" I will say "winning the adult division would have been a better achievement". again I'm not aiming to diminish the achievement but put it's in correct context.

If you had been a judo black belt with 10 years experience I would have been saying something similar "fair play winning the white belt but should you really have been in it?".

I'm already made this point, and so have others but the 'facts of the matter' are, you were awarded the blue belt in the next generation system. Up until now, no one has said the NG grades were nonequivalent to IFBJJ grades. Are you the exception or the new rule? Rhetorical question, you don't have to answer.

In fact, I don't even want to direct this stuff at you, if your coaches are the ones telling you where and how to compete why don't they explain it to get the heat off your back. Maybe they don't give a **** what a load of 'non-achiever key board warriors' think but its your reputation and you've demonstrated already that that's important to you other why you wouldn't be here explaining your point of view. This was a public, world championship and I feel the topic is sufficiently in the public domain already that the matter warrants their reply.

In my opinion:

Everyone in the whitebelt division is a sandbagger so you're no exception
No one in the whitebelt division should be graded in BJJ otherwise they're cheating
The only way to justify you not cheating is if you say your grade isn't a real bjj grade
The absolutely only other way to justify this not cheating is if you say you were awarded a bjj grade prematurely due your sufficiency in the no-gi environ, on closer inspection of your gi-bjj you're more of a white belt 3-stripper and your coaches accounted for this.

BJJRevSS

CHRIS , people who are defending u are your friends and team mates which is understandable but alot of them havent got a clue what there talking about. And posting things to make you feel better and doging around the point of whats been done at the end of the day.

WHAT DOES THIS STAMENT MEAN "I think its no coincedence that some of the people 'supporting' me are the only people in this thread who have numerous times tested their levels on an international stage".
U DIDNT TEST YOUR SELF U TOOK THE EASY OPITION AND CHEATED !

NO BODY REPITABLE HAVE BEEN ON TO DEFEND U R WAT YOU'V DONE !

BECAUSE THEY WONT, BECAUSE THEY NO WATS RIGHT AND WATS WRONG !

SILENCE IS GOLDEN AND THEY SILENCE BY ALL THE SENIOR BJJ PLAYERS AND REPS

IN THIS COUNTRY COULND BE HEARD ANY LOUDER THAN NOW !

gary s

Chris you entered the blue belt gi division in 2009 and have been training full time bjj since January just wondering have you been wearing a gi between 2009 and January this year

Shane Fitz

Chris89 wrote: »

Dont be so sure about that barry, I have no idea of the credentials of the guys that bet me, i was beaten well by a guy wearing a white belt in the white belt division. Every one of my matches was extremely diffcult, people are talking like i went in there and absolutely murdered everyone.




I had nothing to tie a belt around before then?!

Chris89 wrote: »

Myself, my coach and my team believe this to be the appropriate division to enter.

Chris89 wrote: »

Darragh is my coach.

Also, I only know the name, does josie murray teach gi BJJ? does he award blue belts in gi bjj?

Chris , you may not recognise my name but we have met before, and I along with most others have nothing but good things to say about you and applaude your achievement in a stacked division.
Can i ask, was it Edward Ng who beat you? A guy who whilst he has 10 years of grappling experience in the UK under the Next Gen Vale Tudo banner, is genuinely ungraded. A sandbagger in the true sense.

But to restate my issue, you have in 3 post just dismissed the Next Gen way and called into question EVERY grade that was awarded over the last few years by Chris Brennan. So what if you didnt have a Gi or had to borrow your brothers TKD belt. I would sincerely like to hear Darragh and Davids position or opinion.. but to be honest they might be better off not doing so on thise forum.

You and a few of your team mates keep going on about "GI grades".. wtf.. the fact is there is no such distinction.. under IBJJF, which reocognised your grade in '09 and under whom you competed this weekend, you ARE a blue belt, it doesnt matter one bit what you, Darragh or any other team mate thinks.... Gi or no-Gi.. a grade is a grade under IBJJF
Now that may change, and people have made a case to seperate Gi and No-Gi.. but at the moment there is no seperation.

wingnut4

Gi and no gi are different, if you have only started wearing a gi you shouldnt automatically go to a blue belt because you have a blue belt no-gi, using the Gi is different. At the end of the day its up for your coach to decide and most people would trust their coaches views

cowzerp

wingnut4 wrote: »

At the end of the day its up for your coach to decide and most people would trust their coaches views

No you see this is the problem, as far as the rules go there is no difference, if you graded Blue off a BJJ qualified coach on either system there equal, you cant just change the rules when you want.

Rules are there for a reason and are not flexible, maybe in the future this will change but at present his awarded grade is recognised at all levels.

What makes it even more concrete is he has competed at Blue inIreland and won a match too, you wont win a Blue grade match unless your at or around that level.

he's 2 years improved since he got the grade also so i'd hazard a guess he's a solid blue too.

Shane Fitz

wingnut4 wrote: »

Gi and no gi are different, if you have only started wearing a gi you shouldnt automatically go to a blue belt because you have a blue belt no-gi, using the Gi is different. At the end of the day its up for your coach to decide and most people would trust their coaches views

This is the problem.. it is not for you or I or da-bres or Darragh or Chris to decide that there is a difference between Gi and no-Gi.. THAT is not the issue!!! can people try get passed that.
The issue is, that all grades, GI and no-Gi are transferable, and for the moment the IBJJF doe not make a distinction... so if some one is graded to any leve in no-Gi, then they are automatically consdiered that grade in the Gi, and vise versa......

It IS NOT FOR THE COACH OR PLAYER TO DECIDE WHERE HE WANTS TO COMPETE!! he competes at the grade as acknowledged by the IBJJF

Killme00

I think Chris has been put in a very difficult position here, and we should cut him some slack.

This thread has done enough to highlight the relevant issues to the Irish association, the Irish tournament organisers and the guys who run the Irish teams.

Edit: To clarify Irish association and Irish teams

Rickson1

This thread is crazy. Everyone knows that if you're great at no-gi then pull on a gi, you're not going to be as good..pretty simple, where's the confusion? (rhetorical question)



Anyway, how did Darragh do?????

arybvtcw0eolkf

Killme00 wrote: »

I think Chris has been put in a very difficult position here, and we should cut him some slack.

+1.

Killme00 wrote: »

This thread has done enough to highlight the relevant issues to the association, the tournament organisers and the guys who run the teams.

I think a lot of people have moved to debating these points.

IMO its a mess and if the IBJJF are to come out of this with any credibility they really should issue a statement on the matter as it would appear to be very important to its members.

When is a blue belt not a blue belt?.

cowzerp

Rickson1 wrote: »

This thread is crazy. Everyone knows that if you're great at no-gi then pull on a gi, you're not going to be as good..pretty simple, where's the confusion? (rhetorical question)



Anyway, how did Darragh do?????

Its like beating a dead horse here!!

The IBJJF use both as the same-this is not negotiable and if people dont want to grade that system as it will affect them in Gi tournaments then i'd reccomend they dont.

Doug Cartel

Haven Gigantic Ballpark wrote: »

IMO its a mess and if the IBJJF are to come out of this with any credibility they really should issue a statement on the matter as it would appear to be very important to its members.

Do the IBJJF know he has a (no-gi) blue belt? I don't think there is the same paper trail as you have in judo.

lawrencesummers

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Do the IBJJF know he has a (no-gi) blue belt? I don't think there is the same paper trail as you have in judo.

Think the ibjjf are aware that there are highly dubious entrants into the White belt brackets hence they don't count. Where could they start to police it?

wingnut4

Rules are there for a reason and are not flexible, maybe in the future this will change but at present his awarded grade is recognised at all levels.

Apologies, I was unaware that the same rules applied.

If you competed at a blue belt in Ireland then it should be the same elsewere

Doug Cartel

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Think the ibjjf are aware that there are highly dubious entrants into the White belt brackets hence they don't count. Where could they start to police it?

This kind of brings me to a point/question that I've wanted to post for a while now, but didn't because I'm afraid it's going to come off wrong and make me sound like a dick. OK, here goes:

Why does the "World Championship" have belt divisions at all? Shouldn't it just be weight categories? (Inc open weight.) Is there any other sport where you can be World Champion (beginner), or World Champion (intermediate)?

cowzerp

Doug Cartel wrote: »

This kind of brings me to a point/question that I've wanted to post for a while now, but didn't because I'm afraid it's going to come off wrong and make me sound like a dick. OK, here goes:

Why does the "World Championship" have belt divisions at all? Shouldn't it just be weight categories? (Inc open weight.) Is there any other sport where you can be World Champion (beginner), or World Champion (intermediate)?

Good point but it does so thats moot point on this subject.

SDTimeout

Darragh lost his first fight by Clock choke i believe. Seen a few people asking and it wasn't answered!

dasmoose

BJJRevSS wrote: »

NO BODY REPITABLE HAVE BEEN ON TO DEFEND U R WAT YOU'V DONE !

BECAUSE THEY WONT, BECAUSE THEY NO WATS RIGHT AND WATS WRONG !

SILENCE IS GOLDEN AND THEY SILENCE BY ALL THE SENIOR BJJ PLAYERS AND REPS

IN THIS COUNTRY COULND BE HEARD ANY LOUDER THAN NOW !

I don't count then do i?

And try and calm down a little, you'll give yourself a heart attack.

Shane Fitz

lol.. poor Mick sounds like he might pop a blood vesle, all those CAPS, shouting !!

but to be fair to him Mark, afaik, you, Barry and Mick are the senior belts to have posted on this issue, apart from Andy very early. Darragh has been quiet, he may yet contribute, and I cant for one minute belive Dave Jones is unaware of what is going on. JK was out of the counrty, but may well chose not to contribue either.
However seeing as Andy and JK are part the executive of the Irish BJJ association, I think some sort of notification should be forthcomming sometime soon.. after all Chris' Blue belt grade was acknowledged by them

MMAIRELANDFAN

Let's call a spade a spade

Cheating occured and either it was a deliberate attempt or else it was by his coach looking for glory

Let's not skirt around the issue

I feel sorry for any of the white belts that he put out of the competition

On a side note

Maybe the powers that be will shed some light on this as at the moment its all guessing.

PS, Maybe Tony souza should enter the Brown belt categorary!

da-bres

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade

Cheating occured and either it was a deliberate attempt or else it was by his coach looking for glory

Let's not skirt around the issue

I feel sorry for any of the white belts that he put out of the competition

On a side note

Maybe the powers that be will shed some light on this as at the moment its all guessing.

PS, Maybe Tony souza should enter the Brown belt categorary!

MMAIRELANDFAN You know nothing about the subject.

MMAIRELANDFAN

da-bres wrote: »

MMAIRELANDFAN You know nothing about the subject.

I've read every line of this thread and its plain as day.