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lawrencesummers

bjj-fighter wrote: »

Regardless of all this politics, and congrats to Chris, I think that the Mundials should not have a White belt divison. AFAIK The Pan-Ams doesnt, and I think that would be the better way. Anyone agree?

I'm open to correction here, but afaik

The mundials does not have a White belt division. There is a novice competition run along it but the "mundials" is from blue and up, and you can enter up to brown off your own bat, without being officially promoted to it.

da-bres

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I'm open to correction here, but afaik

The mundials does not have a White belt division. There is a novice competition run along it but the "mundials" is from blue and up, and you can enter up to brown off your own bat, without being officially promoted to it.

your correct, think its called the world novice championships, europeans is the same thing

BJJRevSS

bjj-fighter wrote: »

Regardless of all this politics, and congrats to Chris, I think that the Mundials should not have a White belt divison. AFAIK The Pan-Ams doesnt, and I think that would be the better way. Anyone agree?

Pan AMs do have a white belt division, and the points are counted .

Sid_Justice

dasmoose wrote: »

Just wanted to voice my support (and congratulations) for Chris, he is not a sandbagger at all, he's a hardworking guy who loves BJJ and has started dedicating his life to it.

I find this interesting. If you say Chris isn't a sandbagger you presumably mean he's a White Belt in BJJ. I don't want to put words in your mouth but if you consider Chris Leddy a white belt in BJJ do you also consider Charles Flemming, Darragh O' Conaill, Owen Dempsey and David Jones white belts in BJJ. To the best of my knowledge they have the same lineage as Chris (graded under Chris Brennan, a no-gi expert).

I think it's all well and good saying the grade is a thing between a coach and a student, but I didn't know it was acceptable to demote someone for purpose of winning medals in a competition.

Not to take anything away from Chris Leddy, I'm sure it was a tough competition to medal at(did he come 3rd or 1st?) and congratulations to him and his new team. One presumes Saulo will promote him (again?) to blue belt and he will have a more prestigious lineage to follow.

Good luck to Darragh and anyone else competing.

Chris89

This has nothing to do with Darragh's, Daves, Charlies, Owens or anyone else.

It is a choice i made along with my coaches, i have been wearing a bjj white belt since i started training in the gi.

It frustrates me that people think that my relative success in this tournament is due to me being awarded a nogi blue belt two years ago and not down to the hard work i have put in with Darragh and all my training partners since i quit my job in january.

You can think what you want, I havent put anything on anyone, I came across the world to train jiu jitsu and represent my friends and my country. Some people want to take away from that for some reason.

I'd rather this was done with to be honest, the points everyone is raising about dave and chris arent my opinions, this was my choice, my life. I wasnt sandbagging, and i dont care if you think i was.

To the best of my knowledge me and darragh were the only irish people in that comp, I win a medal and get scrutanised on an irish forum, cheers.

Chris89

One more thing, can i ask you all what the ideal outcome of this is? Should i give the medal back? Would you have preffered i enter the bluebelt division and lost my first match against someone with a bluebelt who trains in the gi??

This is my choice, the people sticking up for me are my friends and training partners, they have trained with me, they know what im like, what my standard is, and how much i love this sport.
To the other guys, you have no idea who i am, if you want to come down and train with me then you can say what you like, good or bad.

I am not calling ANYONE elses credentials into question, Ive apologised if ive disrespected anyone, thats all i can do.

If were talking about disrespect, can we consider how disrespectful this is to Darragh, my coach now, everything i know about gi jiu jitsu I have learned from him since January. I represented him, my team and in some ways my country, and you arseholes have bad things to say about that?

If anyone wants to talk about relative standards between ireland and the rest of the world, would you mind doing it by yourselves?

thanks

cowzerp

Chris89 wrote: »

If were talking about disrespect, can we consider how disrespectful this is to Darragh, my coach now, everything i know about gi jiu jitsu I have learned from him since January. I represented him, my team and in some ways my country, and you arseholes have bad things to say about that?

thanks

or maybe dont take it personally, most people are talking about there opinion and not you as an individual,as you said I don't know you-in the ibjjf you are a blue and should compete at blue, personally I think you should have either competed blue or held off till next year to improve, it's not all about winning and I know the standard to win a medal in the white belts would have been hard, sure even in Ireland it's not easy. But fact is your considered blue level here.

Don't take it personal either way.

lawrencesummers

Chris89 wrote: »

One more thing, can i ask you all what the ideal outcome of this is? Should i give the medal back? Would you have preffered i enter the bluebelt division and lost my first match against someone with a bluebelt who trains in the gi??
...

The ideal outcome is probably that you get your blue from saulo and train and compete again and again, whats done is done if people agree with it or not.

Ironically with information about who won the division (a guy with 10 years training) it might even have been easier to medal in the blue belt division.

BJJRevSS

Hes considered a blue belt here because he competes in gi comps at blue level. Sugar coat it what everway you's want whats done is done . I dnt no u and only replying to what u and others post up. U say your trainning since january but competed in november make up your mind pal ?

TEAM RYANO

I THINK WHY PEOPLE ARE PISSED IS
YOU FOUGHT A GI COMP AT BLUE AND TOOK A MEDAL.
THATS THE ONLY PROBLEM I SEE HERE ,
I THINK WE SHOULD JUST KNOCK THIS ON THE HEAD NOW AND ENJOY THE GOOD WEATHER WERE HAVING.
WIN OR LOSE ITS GREAT JUST TO GO TO THIS COMPS AND COMPETE TEST YOURSELF AGAINST OTHER FIGHTERS.
ONCE YOU ENJOY IT GIVE YOUR BEST THATS WHATS ITS ABOUT.
WELL DONE TO EVERYONE THAT FOUGHT
OOOOOSSSSS

Khannie

Ok, I've read through all of this. If any of you want to have a discussion on gi v's no gi grades then by all means fire up a thread. Any lack of civility in such a thread will be dealt with harshly though.

In this case we have a coach and student who obviously believe that gi and no gi grades differ (and this difference is present in the belt worn during training). This thread has become sufficiently unpleasant that I don't think the answers to the legitimate questions people are looking for will be found so I'm going to lock it.

Lastly, can people (in general) pipe down with the back seat modding requests for threads to be closed please. If you want a thread to be closed perhaps drop the mod a PM. Other than that it's at their discretion.

Khannie

Ok, I've given this a lot of thought and I've had reasonable requests on both sides to continue this (very important IMO) discussion / debate so I'm going to reopen this thread in a bit - I'm just waiting on a PM.

Be warned though: Any muppetry will be dealt with swiftly and harshly. Be civil please folks.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Khannie wrote: »

Be warned though: Any muppetry will be dealt with swiftly and harshly. Be civil please folks.

This is also a good time for me to remind people that there's been a new addition to the Forum's Charter, might be a good idea to read it.

Khannie

Reopened.

OLDMAN1

I would like to know the OFFICIAL position of the new BJJ Association of Ireland is on this matter? The world body says that the grades for no gi and gi are the same, is the Irish Association going to follow the world body on this?
From what i have read here this is a simple straight forward case of cheating..
If the Irish BJJ Associations ever wants to be a NGB, one of the things that it is going to be asked what there disciplinary procedures are and if they blaintly fail to inforce them you havn't got a hope in hell of ever becoming the NGB for BJJ in Ireland ...

REMEMBER THIS WAS A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AND HE WAS REPESENTING OUR COUNTRY-IRELAND...

sorry, my spilling is not very good sometimes

ScareGilly

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

REMEMBER THIS WAS A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AND HE WAS RESESENTING Representing OUR COUNTRY-IRELAND...

Although I can see why he might start to resent the country after this..

Do you not represent yourself at the worlds? Not a country as there is no Irish BJJ governing body I think?

If Saulo said he wasn't qualified as a blue in the gi, I'd tend to believe him as well. The gi game and the no gi game are completely different but thats another point entirely. I for one congratulate him, an enormous success for him. And I wish I could quit everything over here and take up BJJ full time in Saulo's academy

themandan6611

I want to compete, am i better training and (hopefully) grading in No-Gi. Then if i am lucky and committed (give up my job) grade to blue belt - i then enter a Gi competition at white belt level ?

if this is what the last 5 pages are about, well i am a horse - its plain to an idiot like me what way it looks like :pac:

Shane Fitz

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

I would like to know the OFFICIAL position of the new BJJ Association of Ireland is on this matter? The world body says that the grades for no gi and gi are the same, is the Irish Association going to follow the world body on this?
From what i have read here this is a simple straight forward case of cheating..

Oldman, I think you have misunderstood what people were asking? It was not cheating in anyway, very harsh for you to say so, and very far from a simple issue to be fair
The Irish association already DOES follow the guidelines as laid down by the IBJJF, in recognising Gi and no-Gi grades, there is no distinction. Everyone who has contributed to this thread has no issue with that.
The problem arose when a competitor was asked to compete as a White belt by a world reknowned Jiu Jitsu Professor, despite being already awarded a Bleu belt (t-shirt) by Chris Brennan of Next Generation in 2009. And by that decision created a distinction
Now every one accepts that the next gen guys are primarily no-Gi players and have afaik little experience in the Gi, as was stated by da bres, Chris Leddy himself has only this year applied himself to Gi training

Are we now at a stage where we must have two seperate listings, 1 for Gi players ie Belts, and another for the no-Gi guys ie t-shirts.
Do we revise the listings as is? If as some people assert its not Jiu Jitsu if its not in the Gi, should there even by no-Gi players on the Belts List?

The question now is what does Saulo's decision say now for any of the no-Gi grades? Are they all to be considered White again, untill their Blue grade is validated by a Gi practitoner?

I dont claim to have the answers, nor presume to offer any. Far better and knowledgeable people than me can do that. I only postulate the question?

Shane Fitz

themandan6611 wrote: »

I want to compete, am i better training and (hopefully) grading in No-Gi. Then if i am lucky and committed (give up my job) grade to blue belt - i then enter a No-Gi competition at white belt level ?

if this is what the last 5 pages are about, well i am a horse - its plain to an idiot like me what way it looks like :pac:

I think you need to re-read it my friend.. especially given that it was a Gi comp Chris medaled in...

Barry.Oglesby

I have nothing but good things to say about Chris Leddy as a competitor and a bloke. He's reffed at my tournament several times and has always been a fair and game competitor.

But I can't get past certain things in this thread. Namely if the shoe was in the other foot and Chris had just been pipped to a medal by a nogi purple or blue belt, what would the reaction be? Would we be saying "ah yeah that's fine cos the mundial white division is essentially ungraded bjj". I don't think we would.

Also, there seems to be some idea that if Saulo says its ok, then its okay. I'm not comfortable with that idea. Who decides the rules and divisions? Certainly not Saulo, who is a legendary player and coach, but in a biased position.

I really want to come down on Chris's side on this, but as someone who is relatively neutral in this (aside from being an Irishman who wants to see Irish grapplers do well, I don't think this stacks up. And it genuinely pains me to say that.

Killme00

How did Darragh get on in his division? Did both lads enter the absolute as well and how'd it go?

Watched some of the live stream yesterday, seems like an amazing experience.

cowzerp

I'm a nobody in bjj, I'd like to hear from the main players in Irish bjj on this situation, the silence is deafening to be honest.

From my point of view my opinions are based on the rules not my own opinion which Is invalid-so simple question is was this a rule break, if it was it tars the medal, if not then all power to him.

In 1 way I feel sorry for him as I think this could have been a mistake and not something that he thought would be an issue.

dasmoose

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I find this interesting. If you say Chris isn't a sandbagger you presumably mean he's a White Belt in BJJ. I don't want to put words in your mouth but if you consider Chris Leddy a white belt in BJJ do you also consider Charles Flemming, Darragh O' Conaill, Owen Dempsey and David Jones white belts in BJJ. To the best of my knowledge they have the same lineage as Chris (graded under Chris Brennan, a no-gi expert).

It's not exactly that. What I'm saying is that in my opinion Chris is a standup guy who has no fear of fighting at the highest level available to him, and that sandbagging is the last thing he'd do.

However in my personal opinion no-gi bjj grades (particularly from the likes of Chris Brennan whose ability is unquestionable) should carry over into gi training.

That being said, if I were in Chris' position and my coach told me to compete at white belt, I would respect his decision and do so. As others have mentioned there is in fact no White Belt division of the mundials it is a novice world championships run at the same time - so any medals collected do Saulo no good whatsoever.

lawrencesummers

He was awarded his blue belt in 2009 according to the bjj.ie list, which means that he is a bjj blue belt with the GI, i doubt he has never tried in the last 2 years to have that defined as a NOGI grade.

When you put aside this controversy, he would probably have been better off entering the blue belt bracket anyway, as the white belt category is a loose loose situation (its full of sandbaggers, you win it you learn nothing you loose and its to people with 10 years experience that you dont have much chance against)

Had he entered at blue and fought, (it sounds like he could do well in it) the standard of competition would teach more about his game than the white belt division did and would stand to him much more in the long term

OLDMAN1

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Oldman, I think you have misunderstood what people were asking? It was not cheating in anyway, very harsh for you to say so, and very far from a simple issue to be fair

Well i think your wrong, it is simple , he entered white when he should have entered blue, weather he did it himself or was told to do it doesn't matter, its still cheating and i would go as far as to say that whoever told him to enter at white should be disciplined for encouraging cheating...

This is the reason all sports have rules...

arybvtcw0eolkf

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Well i think your wrong, it is simple , he entered white when he should have entered blue, weather he did it himself or was told to do it doesn't matter, its still cheating and i would go as far as to say that whoever told him to enter at white should be disciplined for encouraging cheating...

This is the reason all sports have rules...

Shane I'd have to go along with this too.

I've been keeping out of this as I'm not a BJJ competitor, but in another sport we wouldn't be skirting the issue by referring to it as 'sandbagging'.

My understanding of handbagging is someone who refuses to grade so he/she just hangs with the lower kyu's for easier competition, not someone who goes away to a tougher comp than they'd usually face and drop a grade.

To me, the above (dropping a grade) is cheating - pure and simple.

I don't know Chris from the man on the moon, but by all accounts he's a good guy and I hate that he must be pulling his hair out tonight.

Whatever the outcome, however the Irish BJJ community find his action's - he should consider his relationship with his coach re. the advice given to him.

**just to make it clear, I'm not accusing Chris of cheating as I know next to nothing about domestic or international BJJ rules, just pointing out how things might be seen by those outside BJJ circles**

BJJRevSS

That being said, if I were in Chris' position and my coach told me to compete at white belt, I would respect his decision and do so. As others have mentioned there is in fact no White Belt division of the mundials it is a novice world championships run at the same time - so any medals collected do Saulo no good whatsoever.

DAMOOSE,

All medals count in IBJJF tourniments, NOVICE (whiTe Belts)catagory Has a TEAM COMPETION TROPHY for the team with most medals, BJJ REVOLUTION TEAM WON IT AT PAN AMS 2011.
And if a coach you just met and only no u a week r 2 tells you to take off your blue belt that youv been wearing&represnting in your country for 2 years tells you because he says so, you'd respect that??? Id rather keep my belt and not compete than have someone degrade me and then compete.

kiad

BJJRevSS wrote: »

And if a coach you just met and only no u a week r 2 tells you to take off your blue belt that youv been wearing&represnting in your country for 2 years tells you because he says so, you'd respect that???

From what I can decipher from the above "sentence" you seem to say that Chris has been wearing a blue belt for 2 years. If you bothered to read any of his posts you can see that he said himself that he has been wearing a WHITE belt since he started training in the gi. Personally I think there is a difference between gi and nogi and they should be graded as such. Also, if a judo black belt joined a bjj school would they automatically start as a bjj black belt?

arybvtcw0eolkf

kiad wrote: »

From what I can decipher from the above "sentence" you seem to say that Chris has been wearing a blue belt for 2 years. If you bothered to read any of his posts you can see that he said himself that he has been wearing a WHITE belt since he started training in the gi. Also, if a judo black belt joined a bjj school would they automatically start as a bjj black belt?

Its late and I'm not going back through the thread, but I think Chris said that he started to wear a white belt since he started training in the Gi in January.

But the issue some had was that he's fought and medalled as a belt belt in a national Gi competition the November before.

As regards your Judo question, no of course not. They're two different styles with a completely different rule set.

Where as (it seems to me) that NoGi and Gi adhere to the same national and international BJJ bodies and compete under the same rules - ie if your a belt in the Gi your a blue No-Gi.

Chris89

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

But I can't get past certain things in this thread. Namely if the shoe was in the other foot and Chris had just been pipped to a medal by a nogi purple or blue belt, what would the reaction be? Would we be saying "ah yeah that's fine cos the mundial white division is essentially ungraded bjj". I don't think we would.

Dont be so sure about that barry, I have no idea of the credentials of the guys that bet me, i was beaten well by a guy wearing a white belt in the white belt division. Every one of my matches was extremely diffcult, people are talking like i went in there and absolutely murdered everyone.

Its late and I'm not going back through the thread, but I think Chris said that he started to wear a white belt since he started training in the Gi in January.

I had nothing to tie a belt around before then?!