Legalize Cannabis Ireland

tayto lover

ciaran67 wrote: »

Obviously never been stoned

I don't need to use banned substances to enjoy myself. I have managed for a lot of years to have a good time without illegal drugs, thanks.

charlemont

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't need to use banned substances to enjoy myself. I have managed for a lot of years to have a good time without illegal drugs, thanks.

I bet you would be terrified at the thought of yourself being high ?

tayto lover

charlemont wrote: »

I bet you would be terrified at the thought of yourself being high ?

Natural highs are the "in" thing now. A good performance on the golf course does it for me.

charlemont

tayto lover wrote: »

Natural highs are the "in" thing now. A good performance on the golf course does it for me.

I wont argue with that, In a perfect world nobody should have the need to get high but the in the same world we should respect someone else's right to get high as long as he/she isn't a danger to others.

tayto lover

charlemont wrote: »

I wont argue with that, In a perfect world nobody should have the need to get high but the in the same world we should respect someone else's right to get high as long as he/she isn't a danger to others.

I agree with some of that but i would not like to see anyone support drug dealers and help them make a fortune out of other peoples' suffering or addictions.

charlemont

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with some of that but i would not like to see anyone support drug dealers and help them make a fortune out of other peoples' suffering or addictions.

Personally Id like to be able to buy my Hash out of a pharmacy or cafe, Taxes could then be collected and used in Drug education and rehabilitation, Plus the products themselves would be cleaner especially with regard to such drugs as Heroin and Cocaine.

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with some of that but i would not like to see anyone support drug dealers and help them make a fortune out of other peoples' suffering or addictions.

If you support prohibition then you enable this.

paul26

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with some of that but i would not like to see anyone support drug dealers and help them make a fortune out of other peoples' suffering or addictions.

Now that sounds like a good reason to legalise it to me, dont you think. Wont be supporting drug dealers then when i buy my weed.

tayto lover

paul26 wrote: »

Now that sounds like a good reason to legalise it to me, dont you think. Wont be supporting drug dealers then when i buy my weed.

If it was legalizes and distributed through chemist shops would that work ?
Would people buy stronger stuff from dealers and try to say they got it from the chemists ?
Would there be an age limit on who could purchase it ?
Would there be penalties for people purchasing from chemists and then supplying youngsters ?
Would the drug dealers go away or sell something stronger ?
Would our health bills rise through extra addictions ?
Should legalizing cannabis be tried on a European level for a few years and revert back if it does not work ?

I think i know the answers to many of those questions.

ciaran67

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't need to use banned substances to enjoy myself. I have managed for a lot of years to have a good time without illegal drugs, thanks.

You should try humour, its very addictive.

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with some of that but i would not like to see anyone support drug dealers and help them make a fortune out of other peoples' suffering or addictions.

Never been in a pub then?

shebafay

champski wrote: »

Maybe it's genetic and not cannabis related

yes, there may be a genetic component but...... cannabis use exacerbates the psychosis.

HarryPotter41

charlemont wrote: »

I wont argue with that, In a perfect world nobody should have the need to get high but the in the same world we should respect someone else's right to get high as long as he/she isn't a danger to others.

Unfortunately you don't know if they are going to be a danger to others until AFTER they get high. Therein lies the problem.

mikom

shebafay wrote: »

yes, there may be a genetic component but...... cannabis use exacerbates the psychosis.

Tests lend truth to the claim that those who already had psychosis were actually self-medicating with cannabis.

a 2005 study of 1,500 subjects that appeared in the scientific journal Addiction reported that the development of “psychotic symptoms in those who had never used cannabis before the onset of (such) symptoms … predicted future cannabis use.”

Other studies reinforcing Earleywine’s ‘self-medication’ theory include a 2008 study published in the International Journal of Mental Health Nursing which found that schizophrenics typically report using cannabis to reduce anxiety and “improve their mental state.”

Recently, a 2010 report in the journalSchizophrenia Research found that schizophrenic patients with a history of cannabis use demonstrate higher levels of cognitive performance compared to nonusers. Researchers in that study concluded, “The results of the present analysis suggest that (cannabis use) in patients with SZ (schizophrenia) is associated with better performance on measures of processing speed and verbal skills. These data are consistent with prior reports indicating that SZ patients with a history of (cannabis use) have less severe cognitive deficits than SZ patients without comorbid (cannabis use).”

Oh, and also....

authors of a 2009 study published in Schizophrenia Research said definitively that increased cannabis use by the public has not been followed by a proportional rise in diagnoses of schizophrenia or psychosis. Investigators at the Keele University Medical School in Britain compared trends in marijuana use and incidences of schizophrenia in the United Kingdom from 1996 to 2005. Researchers reported that the "incidence and prevalence of schizophrenia and psychoses were either stable or declining" during this period, even the use of cannabis among the general population was rising.

"[T]he expected rise in diagnoses of schizophrenia and psychoses did not occur over a 10 year period," they concluded. "This study does not therefore support the specific causal link between cannabis use and incidence of psychotic disorders.

“The bottom line here is no one knows exactly what causes schizophrenia, and scientists have been looking for decades,” she says. “The best explanation is a ‘stress diathesis’ model, where people have a genetic tendency toward schizophrenic illness, and then something triggers its appearance. But unless you have the genes, you won't get the illness. Cannabis won't change one’s genetic predisposition.”

http://www.alternet.org/media/151776/debunking_the_myth_of_a_link_between_marijuana_and_mental_illness?page=1

Long story short............ If you have a mental illness don't blame it on the cannabis, as you'd be better served looking to your parents and their parents before them first.

HarryPotter41

mikom wrote: »

Tests lend truth to the claim that those who already had psychosis were actually self-medicating with cannabis.



Oh, and also....



http://www.alternet.org/media/151776/debunking_the_myth_of_a_link_between_marijuana_and_mental_illness?page=1

Long story short............ If you have a mental illness don't blame it on the cannabis, as you'd be better served looking to your parents and their parents before them first.

What though if the use of cannibas exacerbates that mental illness?

mikom

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

What though if the use of cannibas exacerbates that mental illness?

Read the piece I linked......

Holland does caution that people with a predisposition toward schizophrenia “tend to have a stronger, more psychotic-like reaction to cannabis, but that is different from the idea that pot actually gives you schizophrenia, which is completely untrue.” As for the severity of these potential psychotic symptoms, Holland states, “When the drug wears off, so do its effects. There is no lasting psychosis from pot.”

If you have a mental illness then I suggest you stay away from cannabis..... alcohol....... non prescribed prescription drugs, as you will fuck things up for yourself and others.
Look after yourself, in other words.

HarryPotter41

mikom wrote: »

Read the piece I linked......

If you have a mental illness then I suggest you stay away from cannabis..... alcohol....... non prescribed prescription drugs, as you will fuck things up for yourself and others.
Look after yourself, in other words.

Its says people with a predisposition, therefore many people would not know they had anything wrong with them, therefore they would be quite happily taking cannibas, having issues with it, and not being aware that they had any kind of mental problems.

mikom

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Its says people with a predisposition, therefore many people would not know they had anything wrong with them, therefore they would be quite happily taking cannibas, having issues with it, and not being aware that they had any kind of mental problems.

Happily taking?
I think the "stronger, more psychotic-like reaction" they would experience might be a clue that they had something wrong with them.
I reckon most smokers would be alarmed if they had a "strong, more psychotic-like reaction" to smoking.
Hell even most drinkers would be alarmed if they had a "strong, more psychotic-like reaction" to drinking.

Quote:
Holland does caution that people with a predisposition toward schizophrenia “tend to have a stronger, more psychotic-like reaction to cannabis, but that is different from the idea that pot actually gives you schizophrenia, which is completely untrue.” As for the severity of these potential psychotic symptoms, Holland states, “When the drug wears off, so do its effects. There is no lasting psychosis from pot.”

tayto lover

ciaran67 wrote: »

You should try humour, its very addictive.




Never been in a pub then?

I come on here when i want a laugh.
I have not heard of a publican shooting a rival lately not have i heard of a young plumber or any other innocent person being shot by a publican. Mountjoy is not full of publicans either to the best of my knowledge.

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

Mountjoy is not full of publicans either to the best of my knowledge.

No, you'll find them in the Dail instead.
How many FG TDs, councillors and prominent supporters are publicans or hoteliers.
Read between the lines.

BIRR ELECTORAL AREA

Clendennen Percy Kinnitty, Birr. Publican Fine Gael
Craughwell Nigel 16 Sandymount View, Birr. Auctioneer & Publican Fine Gael
Whelahan Brian Rock Lane, Birr. Publican & Shop Owner Fine Gael

tayto lover

mikom wrote: »

No, you'll find them in the Dail instead.
How many FG TDs, councillors and prominent supporters are publicans or hoteliers.
Read between the lines.

BIRR ELECTORAL AREA

Clendennen Percy Kinnitty, Birr. Publican Fine Gael
Craughwell Nigel 16 Sandymount View, Birr. Auctioneer & Publican Fine Gael
Whelahan Brian Rock Lane, Birr. Publican & Shop Owner Fine Gael

AND who have they shot ?
By the way i have absolutely no time for politicians either.

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

AND who have they shot ?
By the way i have absolutely no time for politicians either.

Who has Luke "Ming" Flanagan shot.
The cannabis "scene" is not all gang related.
Prohibition makes a certain section of it gang related however.
Just as alcohol prohibition in the US fueled the gangs in years gone by.
Seen much mention of alcohol smuggling in the states today?

Would you like prohibition to continue?
Crime won't lessen end under the current approach I can tell you.

tayto lover

mikom wrote: »

Who has Luke "Ming" Flanagan shot.
The cannabis "scene" is not all gang related.
Prohibition makes a certain section of it gang related however.
Just as alcohol prohibition in the US fueled the gangs in years gone by.
Seen much mention of alcohol smuggling in the states today?

Would you like prohibition to continue?
Crime won't lessen end under the current approach I can tell you.

To be fair to Luke i don't believe he is a dealer.

Where is the guarantee that doing away with prohibition will sort out the drug problem or lessen crime ?
Will more availability lessen the problem i.e. health, addiction, crimes to pay for the now legal drugs ?

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

Where is the guarantee that doing away with prohibition will sort out the drug problem or lessen crime ?
Will more availability lessen the problem i.e. health, addiction, crimes to pay for the now legal drugs ?

Ask Portugal who took the brave step of decriminalisation.

A study by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, has found that in the five years after decriminalisation, Portugal’s drug problems had improved in every measured way. The man behind the research, Glenn Greenwald, a lawyer, told Time: “Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success.”

Portuguese policy is that possession of small amounts of any drug is not a criminal offence; if you are found possessing it, you can be put before a panel of a psychologist, social worker and legal adviser, who will decide appropriate treatment. You are free to refuse that treatment, and a jail sentence is not an option. Drug trafficking is still illegal and punishable by jail.

I’ll just go through the figures; apologies for the slew of statistics. Drug use among 13- to 15-year-olds fell from 14.1 per cent in 2001 to 10.6 per cent in 2006. Among 16- to 18-year-olds it has dropped from 27.6 per cent to 21.6 per cent. This, incidentally, has come after years of steadily increasing drug use among the young; between 1995 and 2001, use in the 16-to-18 bracket leapt up from 14.1 per cent to its 2001 high. This drop has come against a background of increasing drug use across the rest of the EU.

There has been a mild increase in use among older groups, 19-24 and up, but this is expected due to the rise in use in the young in the 1990s; it’s a “cohort effect”, meaning that young people get older, and take their habits with them.

Further, HIV infections among drug users fell, drug-related deaths fell, there was a decrease in trafficking, and a huge amount of money was saved by offering treatment instead of prison sentences.

The Portugal experience suggests that decriminalisation is exactly the right approach for their stated priorities of reducing drug use and reducing crime. If your approach has been shown, several times, to achieve the opposite of what you intend, it may be time to change that approach.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture...in-respond-no/

Working well, I'm sure you agree.

tayto lover

mikom wrote: »

Ask Portugal who took the brave step of decriminalisation.





Working well, I'm sure you agree.

I would be in favour of a trial period as we can't be any worse and if it saved lives then worthwhile maybe.

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

I would be in favour of a trial period as we can't be any worse and if it saved lives then worthwhile maybe.

*Extends handshake and smiles*


Spains way of preventing people buying tainted product from a lad down a back alley.
It keeps the kids away as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeKGpJw-uW8

Civilisation.

mikom

Movement across the water.
From tomorrows Independent....

Lib Dems to vote to decriminalise all drug use

The Liberal democrats are to call for the decriminalisation of all drugs, including heroin and cocaine, to be considered urgently by the Coalition Government in an effort to cut levels of addiction.
The party's conference is preparing to back demands for Britain's "harmful" and "ineffective" drug laws dating back 40 years to be swept away and replaced with an entirely new strategy for tackling drug use.
Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, who has previously supported drug decriminalisation, is understood to be relaxed about his party committing itself to such a contentious policy proposal.


But it would be bound to provoke tensions with the party's Conservative coalition partners, who strongly oppose reform of drugs laws.
The Liberal Democrats look certain to call for the immediate establishment of an expert panel to draw up plans to decriminalise all illicit substances.
The proposed reform is based on legislation in Portugal, where the personal use of any controlled drug is no longer a criminal offence.


Although its possession will still be illegal, users would no longer face a jail sentence or fine, but would instead be required to undergo treatment or counselling for their habit. The current penalties for dealing would remain.
A motion to be debated by the conference says: "Individuals, especially young people, can be damaged both by the imposition of criminal records and by a drug habit. The priority for those addicted to all substances must be healthcare, education and rehabilitation, not punishment."


It argues: "Those countries and states that have decriminalised possession of some or all drugs have not seen increased use." The motion adds that "heroin maintenance clinics" set up in Switzerland and the Netherlands as an alternative to jail for addicts have had great success in reducing crime and the prevalence of hard drugs.


And it points to the call from the Global Commission on Drugs Policy, headed by the former UN secretary general Kofi Annan, for governments around the world to consider the regulation of drugs.
The conference motion also suggests the expert panel prepares alternative proposals for the creation of a "strictly controlled and regulated cannabis market".


Senior Liberal Democrat sources predicted last night that the motion would be overwhelmingly passed, automatically making it party policy.
"This is not a proposal from a lunatic fringe," said one. "It is a recognition of the general failure of drugs policies both in Britain and across the world."
A spokesman for Mr Clegg said he would "watch the debate with interest" on what was a "perfectly valid and legitimate debate for a party".


The vote in favour of the moves would not guarantee their inclusion in their next election manifesto, but the party leadership made clear it was sympathetic to the calls. The Liberal Democrats have consistently argued that drug laws should be based on scientific advice, but have never committed themselves in a manifesto to decriminalisation.


Danny Kushlick, the director of Transform Drug Policy Foundation, said: "We're delighted because this enables an historically taboo area to be publicly debated. It should pave the way for the other big parties to engage seriously in a non-party political way in how to deal with one of the big problems facing the UK."


Last year the former Drugs minister, Bob Ainsworth, became the most senior politician to back decriminalisation. The Labour MP argued that it would be better for addicts to receive their fixes on prescription rather than relying for their supply on the criminal gangs. He said his departure from the front bench gave him the freedom to express his view that the "war on drugs has been nothing short of a disaster".


Under the 1971 Misuse of Drugs Act, illicit substances are divided into three categories. Possession of class A drugs, which include heroin, cocaine, crack cocaine, Ecstasy and LSD, carry the harshest penalties.
Class B drugs include cannabis and amphtamines, while such substance as ketamine, GHB, many tranquilisers and anabolic steroids are in class C.
Critics say that the categories do not accurately reflect the risks of the different substances and therefore carry little credibility with the public.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/lib-dems-to-vote-to-decriminalise-all-drug-use-2332149.html

globalwarrior

There are posters on this thread whom I never believed in a million years that I would find myself in agreement with!

However, the findings show marijuana to be a gateway drug, Furthermore, its such a subtle and (wonderfully) understated drug, that it's more difficult to detect one has a problem and thus, harder to quit than many other drugs!

In the 12 step recovery rooms they have a saying...
C.I.A = Catholic Irish Alcohol / Catholic Irish Addict

It is also recognised that genetically some cultures, in particular the American Indians, Australian aboriginals and the Irish community, commonly exhibit a far grater 'negative reaction' when exposed to a mind altering substance, than seen within the wider global community...

Histrocially, I know that my own family (on both sides) are riddled with subtance addition as are many of my friends, and for this reason I believe that making this (or any other) drug “legal” in this country - is IMHO the last thing that the people of Ireland need!

ciaran67

tayto lover wrote: »

I have not heard of a publican shooting a rival lately not have i heard of a young plumber or any other innocent person being shot by a publican. Mountjoy is not full of publicans either to the best of my knowledge.

We could go around all week with this mate. Booze causes massive amounts of damage on society and its very hypocritical for everyone to get on their high horses about cannabis when they like a good drink.

sdiff

tayto lover wrote: »

If it was legalizes and distributed through chemist shops would that work ? Well I think it would be sold just like alcohol and tobacco, so not from a chemist
Would people buy stronger stuff from dealers and try to say they got it from the chemists ? Stronger stuff? You mean hard drugs? Dealers already sell them, cannabis being legal wont change that and will actually reduce demand for harder drugs as you aren't associated with drug dealers if you want weed.
Would there be an age limit on who could purchase it ? Of course, it would be taxed and regulated as alcohol is
Would there be penalties for people purchasing from chemists and then supplying youngsters ? See above
Would the drug dealers go away or sell something stronger ? They are already selling "something stronger". As shown in the netherlands there would be LESS demand for stronger stuff so yes, most of the drug dealers business would disappear
Would our health bills rise through extra addictions ? Cannabis is not addictive
Should legalizing cannabis be tried on a European level for a few years and revert back if it does not work ? We're talking about our own country for now. Many countries in europe are moving towards decriminlization or even virtual legality.

I think i know the answers to many of those questions.

Answers in bold.

There are posters on this thread whom I never believed in a million years that I would find myself in agreement with!

However, the findings show marijuana to be a gateway drug, Furthermore, its such a subtle and (wonderfully) understated drug, that it's more difficult to detect one has a problem and thus, harder to quit than many other drugs!

In the 12 step recovery rooms they have a saying...
C.I.A = Catholic Irish Alcohol / Catholic Irish Addict

It is also recognised that genetically some cultures, in particular the American Indians, Australian aboriginals and the Irish community, commonly exhibit a far grater 'negative reaction' when exposed to a mind altering substance, than seen within the wider global community...

Histrocially, I know that my own family (on both sides) are riddled with subtance addition as are many of my friends, and for this reason I believe that making this (or any other) drug “legal” in this country - is IMHO the last thing that the people of Ireland need!

I'm sorry but there isn't really alot of facts in this post. There are no studies that prove marijuana is a gateway drug, apart from the fact that you're buying it from dealers who can offer you harder drugs. This problem of course would be eliminated if it were legal. The funny thing about arguing against legalization is that most people inadvertently actually make points for legalization!

I'm not sure what you mean about it being subtle or understated. Marijuana is not physically addictive at all so if you have any amount of willpower it's easy to give up.

Your own family, if they indeed suffered from substance addiction, would not have suffered from cannabis addiction. As I said, it is not physically addictive. Maybe they suffered from tobacco addiction, alcohol addiction, some form of pharmaceuticals or heroin maybe.

tayto lover

Sdiff,

Many people are finding cannabis addictive it seems.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/jun/17/thisweekssciencequestions

I didn't mean heroin or any drug in my post just stronger forms of cannabis.
I think a trial period would be a worthwhile exercise in Ireland but regulation in the same form as alcohol and tobacco i don't like. Chemist shops should be the legal outlet imo. Too many kids smoking cigarettes without knowing the dangers so i think these should be sold from chemists also.