Legalize Cannabis Ireland

PogMoThoin

Richard Branson is a big campaigner to end the war on drugs, those against should have a read:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-branson/to-win-the-drug-war-follow-the-states_b_1852870.html

OnTheCounter

Gbear, you do realise that you are a member of society?

a junkie may rob you.

part of the cost of your home/motor insurance is due to all the junkie related damage.

part of your taxes pay for drug treatment centres and pay towards the cost of junkies and dealers in jail.

debating with you is more like having to educate you to the issue first and then wait for am opinion. Its shocking. Take 5 minutes and come up with a list of as many things that drug use costs society and you will change your own mind.

mikom

OnTheCounter wrote: »

The difference is I have first hand experience of liv4 among the people in society that would be negatively affected by legal drugs and can see exactly how a harmless coffee shop selling joints/muffins can lead to growth in other criminal enterprises.

.

Who are these special people that you have first hand experience of and why are they lying in wait for legalisation of cannabis before they embark on their odyssey?

OnTheCounter

Boombastic wrote: »

Teenagers in Ireland smoke more cannabis than their Dutch counterparts, there is a report floating around here somewhere on that

ok, is that kids who have smoked weed at least once or are regular users? It makes a big difference but that study will emphase one way or the other depending on their agenda.

i would say over 50% of college students have at least had a drag of a joint but they are probably put in the same category as someone who smokes at least 5 days a week in that report.

no report is unbiased so take it with a pinch of salt.

Gbear

OnTheCounter wrote: »

Gbear, you do realise that you are a member of society?

Your point?

OnTheCounter wrote: »

a junkie may rob you.

I don't care whether he's a junkie or not. That he's robbing me is the important part.
Maybe he wouldn't have to rob me if drugs weren't as expensive?
There simply wouldn't be enough people taking drugs if they were legalised for the crime and healthcare armageddon that some people are trying to forecast.
Nor would I particularly care if there was. I don't care why somebody commits a crime all that much. Whether he was a junkie or just a run of the mill ****, the robbery was the crime, not being a junkie.

OnTheCounter wrote: »

part of the cost of your home/motor insurance is due to all the junkie related damage.

I'm sure the cost is astronomical.:rolleyes:
I have to pay it for a variety of other stupid acts, what's one more?

OnTheCounter wrote: »

part of your taxes pay for drug treatment centres and pay towards the cost of junkies and dealers in jail.

This is a laugh.
The tax revenue from drugs would almost certainly cover the costs of treating them.
If it didn't, well, my taxes also pay the public healthcare for people who fall off ladders and break their leg. Unfortunately I can't decide that my taxes will only pay for expenses that didn't result from somebody's stupidity.

How many alcohol dealers are in jail?
I wouldn't have to pay for jailing drug dealers if they were all forced out of business by much more efficient industrialised production.

OnTheCounter

mikom wrote: »

Who are these special people that you have first hand experience of and why are they lying in wait for legalisation of cannabis before they embark on their odyssey?

people who dont know where to get weed and see it as a taboo, smoke a joint and then its not such a big jump to be chatting to someone who asks if they want to try a bit of coke.

secondly with drug tourism comes a massive increase in prostitution. That industry would move from being mainly indepentant girls in ireland to being controlled by gangs. That makes it more dangerous for everyone.

coke consumption would increase. More money to be made > more gangs > more violence.

also the gangs would run the coffee shops and burn out ones who werent giving up some of the profits, just like they did with head shops.

could come up with more if i was willing to put in more time to this topic but realised no matter how logical i am its not going to register.

weed is not going to be legalised any time soon and its a hell of a lot less likely if the right wing gets elected in holland this month. That was the test - it failed.

shut up and just have a smoke if you want one.

OnTheCounter

Gbear wrote: »

Your point?


I don't care whether he's a junkie or not. That he's robbing me is the important part.
Maybe he wouldn't have to rob me if drugs weren't as expensive?
There simply wouldn't be enough people taking drugs if they were legalised for the crime and healthcare armageddon that some people are trying to forecast.
Nor would I particularly care if there was. I don't care why somebody commits a crime all that much. Whether he was a junkie or just a run of the mill ****, the robbery was the crime, not being a junkie.




I'm sure the cost is astronomical.:rolleyes:
I have to pay it for a variety of other stupid acts, what's one more?


This is a laugh.
The tax revenue from drugs would almost certainly cover the costs of treating them.
If it didn't, well, my taxes also pay the public healthcare for people who fall off ladders and break their leg. Unfortunately I can't decide that my taxes will only pay for expenses that didn't result from somebody's stupidity.

How many alcohol dealers are in jail?
I wouldn't have to pay for jailing drug dealers if they were all forced out of business by much more efficient industrialised production.

its not the cost of alcohol dealers in jail you pay for. Its the 1 in 3 casuality patients who are there with an alcohol related issue.

I cant talk to you anymore or I might damage my phone out of frustration.

You can get away with these opinions in college. In the real world you will be schooled. Wise up.

Aganica

OnTheCounter wrote: »

secondly with drug tourism comes a massive increase in prostitution.....coke consumption would increase.

Is this just your own personal opinion or can you back it up with any studies or research?



.....Thats what I thought.:D

Gbear

OnTheCounter wrote: »

its not the cost of alcohol dealers in jail you pay for. Its the 1 in 3 casuality patients who are there with an alcohol related issue.

I cant talk to you anymore or I might damage my phone out of frustration.

You can get away with these opinions in college. In the real world you will be schooled. Wise up.

I can only attack your arguments as you make them.
You said (I'll paraphrase), "you have to pay the cost of drugs - one of them is imprisoning drug dealers".

What is the cost of alcohol-related healthcare costs? What is the amount of money that is brought in in alcohol tax revenue? Considering how little drinking actually results in trips to the emergency room when compared to the actual amount drunk I would imagine that the latter pays for the former.

As for the individuals sitting in those trollies - they made their choice.
If they're children they have negligent parents. The latter isn't about alcohol per se but is a different debate entirely.

Ah yes the "real world" - where simply saying "I have experience! Tut tut mister idealist" oftentimes is substituted for valid arguments.

I presume Dr David Nutt, the former head of the UK drugs taskforce, fired for using evidence and not toeing the party line is also a young foolish college student.

Gbear wrote: »

Nor would I particularly care if there was. I don't care why somebody commits a crime all that much. Whether he was a junkie or just a run of the mill ****, the robbery was the crime, not being a junkie.

I should probably point out a mistake I made - when i say "I don't care" it is in no way related to how much I care about the plight of a person who gets stabbed by a junkie and everything to do with how much I think that kind of argument has relevance to the debate.

There are a million reasons for committing crimes. I think saying "he committed a crime because drugs" is a **** argument for banning drugs. One does not necessarily follow the other, any more than eating a slice of cheese necessarily results in a heart attack.


In order not to be a massive ****ing hypocrite about drug legislation you ought to be tirelessly campaigning for people to be banned from doing any number of other stupid dangerous things and causing themselves and others harm or be able to explain why drugs are put up on such a pedestal.

mikom

OnTheCounter wrote: »

people who dont know where to get weed and see it as a taboo, smoke a joint and then its not such a big jump to be chatting to someone who asks if they want to try a bit of coke.

You mean like a back alley dealer rather than through a regulated store........

OnTheCounter wrote: »

I cant talk to you anymore or I might damage my phone out of frustration.

You can get away with these opinions in college. In the real world you will be schooled. Wise up.

OnTheCounter wrote: »

shut up and just have a smoke if you want one.

OnTheCounter wrote: »

fcuking sheltered ignorant arts students.

You're seem a pretty angry individual.
Are you sure you're ok there.

OnTheCounter

mikom wrote: »

You mean like a back alley dealer rather than through a regulated store........

not necessarily. It may just be someone in a pub/party who offers a bit of coke to someone with no intention of selling but if weed is legalised it becomes somewhat socially acceptable and makes other "party" drugs slightly less taboo for the average irish person.

secondly whatever miniscule chance weed has of being legalised and regulated in a few decades class A drugs never will be as there is absolutely no associated benefits to argue the case so the wont ever be regulated shops selling cocaine in Ireland.

mikom

OnTheCounter wrote: »

not necessarily. It may just be someone in a pub/party who offers a bit of coke to someone with no intention of selling but if weed is legalised it becomes somewhat socially acceptable and makes other "party" drugs slightly less taboo for the average irish person.

This scenario happens everyday in Ireland under the current cannabis prohibition situation, so no flights of fancy needed.

OnTheCounter wrote: »

secondly whatever miniscule chance weed has of being legalised and regulated in a few decades class A drugs never will be as there is absolutely no associated benefits to argue the case so the wont ever be regulated shops selling cocaine in Ireland.

An argument for another day, as this is a "Legalize Cannabis Ireland" thread.

Yamanoto

OnTheCounter wrote: »

secondly with drug tourism comes a massive increase in prostitution. That industry would move from being mainly indepentant girls in ireland to being controlled by gangs. That makes it more dangerous for everyone.

This strikes me as mere opinion.

Links would be good but failing that, perhaps you could expound as to how you reached this conclusion and point us toward some examples to illustrate same.

ArseLtd

OnTheCounter wrote: »

people who dont know where to get weed and see it as a taboo, smoke a joint and then its not such a big jump to be chatting to someone who asks if they want to try a bit of coke.

secondly with drug tourism comes a massive increase in prostitution. That industry would move from being mainly indepentant girls in ireland to being controlled by gangs. That makes it more dangerous for everyone.

coke consumption would increase. More money to be made > more gangs > more violence.

also the gangs would run the coffee shops and burn out ones who werent giving up some of the profits, just like they did with head shops.

could come up with more if i was willing to put in more time to this topic but realised no matter how logical i am its not going to register.

weed is not going to be legalised any time soon and its a hell of a lot less likely if the right wing gets elected in holland this month. That was the test - it failed.

What rubbish. At the moment, the same people are selling cannabis as heroine, so obviously under prohibition people are more likely to be offered hard drugs.

The rest of your post is not worth replying to. Drug tourism? Coke consumption increase? Gangs running coffee shops?? Are you serious? Gangs don't run the local Gala store I don't see how they would run a coffee shop. You just made all that up on the spot I'm sure, what are you doing here posting this? Please provide sources (I'm not expecting any)

I just hope no-one mistakes your aggressive tone for knowledge. Your worse than a slurry spreader at this stage.

OnTheCounter wrote: »

shut up and just have a smoke if you want one.

Have you thought about medical marijuana for your rage?

Aganica

The big game changers in the debate on drug policy are two fold;

The is firstly the emergence of so called designer drugs. While the laws relating to these so called 'head shop products' in Ireland are fairily solid (even as new analogs are created. ).

The problem is that so far most of these have been analogs of stimulants and cannabanoids. Anecdotal evidence suggests that OPIATE annalogs are beginning to be created and traded by so called 'underground chemists'. Imagine heroin but stronger cheaper and more addictive


The second major issue is the the drug trade has established a serious large trade on the internet in recent years. Whereby almost anyone anywhere can buy any drug (or even guns!?!). Law enforcement seem almost powerless to stop it. This article from Forms magazine gives an example

Black Market Drug Site 'Silk Road' Booming: $22 Million In Annual Sales -


“If you imagine them selling paperclips and buttons, they’re a stable business that’s growing without advertising or being in the news, just by word of mouth,” says Christin. “That was the surprising thing: How normal the whole thing seems.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/08/06/black-market-drug-site-silk-road-booming-22-million-in-annual-mostly-illegal-sales/

ScumLord

OnTheCounter wrote: »

I would be in favour of decriminalising possession of a very tiny bit of weed but not the sale or consumption in a public place. Basically to protect young people from getting a charge.

.. But make it easier for the criminals to do business. Decriminalisation solves nothing.

OnTheCounter wrote: »

secondly with drug tourism comes a massive increase in prostitution. That industry would move from being mainly indepentant girls in ireland to being controlled by gangs. That makes it more dangerous for everyone.

Where are you getting this out of? Why would legalised weed lead to prostitution? I can only assume you've somehow linked the two because both are legal in the Netherlands. As far as I'd been lead to believe prostitution is currently controlled by gangs.

coke consumption would increase. More money to be made > more gangs > more violence.

I could easily see coke consumption dropping. Organised crime is a business and falls under the same constraints as any normal business, make profit or die. If these gangs lose their cash crop weed, they're going to take a huge financial hit plus half their customer base is going to disappear as they can now go to a legitimate business and get their weed without running the gauntlet of being arrested or waiting around on the whims of some dealer.

The up shot of this is they can't buy as much hard drugs, this will make them either drive the price up which would drive away the customers or bring the price down which would mean less profit. The only way to attract people into the very dangerous and risky cocaine trade is through obscene profits, once those profits dwindle people won't want to do the trade. That's an economic fact.

also the gangs would run the coffee shops and burn out ones who werent giving up some of the profits, just like they did with head shops.

Criminal gangs? Or concerned citizens? I'm not sure which carried out the burnings but I know where the product ended up, in the hands of the criminal gangs and is being sold all over the country.

If the cannabis trade is legalised from production (under strict guidelines which already exist for food and medical production) to distribution to sale the criminal gangs won't be able to play any part in the cannabis trade. We've already seen this happen in the states to a point with medical cannabis industry which is heavily monitored and attracting business people who are investing their savings into the trade. Normal people won't risk their investments to break a few laws.

could come up with more if i was willing to put in more time to this topic but realised no matter how logical i am its not going to register.

I can't see your logic, your pulling opinions out of thin air as far as I can see.

Mickeroo

Yamanoto wrote: »

This strikes me as mere opinion.

Links would be good but failing that, perhaps you could expound as to how you reached this conclusion and point us toward some examples to illustrate same.

They clearly just used logic to come to that conclusion. Weed is legal in holland, prostitiution is also legal. Weed = prostitution. Think of the children Joe.

Theres also a study here that weed causes women to lose their moral judgement.

mikom

Mickeroo wrote: »

Weed = prostitution.

Weed = prostitution = clogs = getting sucked off in a windmill.

gsxr1

mikom wrote: »

Weed = prostitution = clogs = getting sucked off in a windmill.

Weed = prostitution = clogs = getting sucked off in a windmill while stoned

mikom

gsxr1 wrote: »

getting sucked off in a windmill while stoned

Edam, that's good.

Boombastic

Legalising weed will lead to more pancakes

Aganica

who should manage cannabis production and distribution if it was to be legalized?

If it was to be legalized how would we prevent children, young people and vulnerable people accessing / abusing a readily available product more so then under prohibition?

Is decriminalization a better starting point? If so, would that protect more people then it would fail?

What is a 'reasonable' daily / weekly limmit for personal use under a legal framework?

Should a limit on cannabanoid (THC% ect) content / ratio be applied. How would this be enforced if so?

Would legalization ultimately just amount to increase availability of cannabis and lead to catastrophic mix in combination with Irelands epidemic alcohol problem?

Ash.J.Williams

allow people grow 3 plants and share amongst friends, legalization won't work.

ScumLord

Aganica wrote: »

who should manage cannabis production and distribution if it was to be legalized?

The same way we manage food production or any industry for that matter, we already have one legal drug called alcohol so we've already set the ground work. If cannabis growing had similar restrictions to organic food it would be a very monitored crop.

If it was to be legalized how would we prevent children, young people and vulnerable people accessing / abusing a readily available product more so then under prohibition?

The law obviously. It's easier for children to get weed now than it is for them to get alcohol.

Is decriminalization a better starting point? If so, would that protect more people then it would fail?

I think decriminalisation is a half measure that will only help criminal gangs. Take it out of their hands completely.

What is a 'reasonable' daily / weekly limmit for personal use under a legal framework?

You can't overdose on cannabis, it's virtually impossible. So setting an upper limit would be slightly redundant as much as it's redundant with alcohol.

Should a limit on cannabanoid (THC% ect) content / ratio be applied. How would this be enforced if so?

A good mix of CBD would be a more important factor than controlling the upper limit of THC. I'm sure there would be a limit imposed just for the shake of it even though it's pretty pointless.

Would legalization ultimately just amount to increase availability of cannabis and lead to catastrophic mix in combination with Irelands epidemic alcohol problem?

It depends on how it's sold. I think it should be purchased through a club setting. I think the social aspect of drugs is very important. A club setting where people can do many things other than just smoke weed would reduce consumption. Having people smoking at home alone isn't an ideal scenario, there's nothing wrong with it but your consumption may well go up, you'll develop a tolerance for the drug and could turn into a hermit with all the physical and social problems that go with a lack of human interaction.

The club setting would also encourage people to respect their club, people won't want to club to come into disrepute and I think it'll cut down on selling to minors if they can't even get in the door, any member caught selling to kids would loss his membership.

Dockington

Aganica wrote: »

Would legalization ultimately just amount to increase availability of cannabis and lead to catastrophic mix in combination with Irelands epidemic alcohol problem?

You've obviously never smoked a joint after drinking, it leads to the catastrophe of falling asleep on the couch at houseparty while your mate ends up scoring the bird who you were chatting up after you drewl on her shoulder and snore. This is not just opinion...during my early twenties I tested this hypothesis frequently. Catastrophic really.

Or the alternative, drinking after smoking a joint :eek: You end up in the pub sitting, drinking pints and not being arsed to go out dancing, a cheesey smile and some head bopping along to the music often ensues. Shocking :eek::eek:

Ah them were the good auld days..... damn responsibilities :mad:

Gbear

Aganica wrote: »

Would legalization ultimately just amount to increase availability of cannabis and lead to catastrophic mix in combination with Irelands epidemic alcohol problem?

When our policies towards certain substances are failing, the logical step is to get better policies, rather than banning everything.

It's too easy to buy drink as a minor in this country. I bought plenty of drink in offies before I was 18 - I just walked up to the counter.

In the US you need I.D. Even my Dad was ID'd at a baseball match when he was buying beer at the age of about 40.

That said, if people want to drink they'll find a way and if they want drugs they'll find away.

We have a pretty ****e culture towards alcohol in this country and that's really the root of the problem.

I reckon the issue is the combining of Irish "drinking all the time" culture - a few pints every day, with the American college culture of getting absolutely rat-arsed.

Other than the relentless health warnings I'm not sure what the government can do. It's up to individuals to make decisions for themselves and their children.

peternel

OnTheCounter wrote: »

explain your theory to someone who has been robbed by a junkie because they can no longer be a productive member of society due to herion usage so resort to robbery to feed their habit.

Explain your theory to innocent victims of violence caught in the middle of feuding drug gangs over territory. Was the fella shot in the legs with the ira man a couple of days ago an innocent victim?

think of the big picture.

Thats way we should STOP the war on drugs, the herb has never killed any one its the police and drug dealers that are killing them selves and innocent people, cannabis is NOT a drug its Gods HERB, it helps millions of people medically and has saved meany peoples lives, that the hospital and government have given up on, this is the most wonderful herb in the world, and the sooner people realize this FACT, then we can stop prohibition of this wonderful herb, and this will STOP the war on drugs

Aganica

peternel wrote: »

the herb ....Gods HERB.... the most wonderful herb in the world...wonderful herb

Wha ha ha ha:D

peternel

Thank you, this was good, very good

Ash.J.Williams

to be fair it is a rather amazing plant!