Legalize Cannabis Ireland

mikom

Lukker- wrote: »

Just because the Government says so clearly doesn't mean its right.

Ah now, in fairness the government always lead us in the right direction.
Shur the country is doing mighty.

alex73

Lukker- wrote: »

Sure weren't the prison guards at Auschwitz just following orders?

Just because the Government says so clearly doesn't mean its right.

Hmmm... Government not legalising cannabis = nazi guards. Let me have a think how I connect the 2

HarryPotter41

Lukker- wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13624303

But sure, what would they know, they are only the experts like.

The presidents of Colombia and Mexico have what medical qualifications exactly? Or are you referring to their inability to rule inherently corrupt nations?

Smcgie

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

The presidents of Colombia and Mexico have what medical qualifications exactly? Or are you referring to their inability to rule inherently corrupt nations?

I would be very interested in knowing your age.. But I could hazard a guess :rolleyes: wake up we are in a different era. I don't and never have taken cannabis but my mother has MS and she can get it prescribed (by doctors) to help with her condition. The biggest problem with legalising cannabis is that the state or large corporations do not profit from it in the same way the do with alcohol.

I can guarantee you if the government sought and found a route to Market that would give organisations huge profits, it would be legalised in the morning and sold in the domestic Market simply like alcohol was.

HarryPotter41

Smcgie wrote: »

I would be very interested in knowing your age.. But I could hazard a guess :rolleyes: wake up we are in a different era. I don't and never have taken cannabis but my mother has MS and she can get it prescribed (by doctors) to help with her condition. The biggest problem with legalising cannabis is that the state or large corporations do not profit from it in the same way the do with alcohol.

I can guarantee you if the government sought and found a route to Market that would give organisations huge profits, it would be legalised in the morning and sold in the domestic Market simply like alcohol was.

I wouldn't make too many presumptions if I was you, they tend to slap you in the face, and make you look ridiculous.I have no problem with medicinal uses for cannibas. Seeing as has been stated previously the issues we have in this country with alcohol and the massive issues around underage drinking in particular, we really do need another drug legalized to add fuel to the social problems we have on the streets most weekends.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

alex73 wrote: »

Hmmm... Government not legalising cannabis = nazi guards. Let me have a think how I connect the 2

Although its a strawman, it certainly contains more logic than your connection between growing your own cannabis and murdering people who annoy you.

alex73

Smcgie wrote: »

if the government sought and found a route to Market that would give organisations huge profits, it would be legalised in the morning and sold in the domestic Market simply like alcohol was.

No it wouldn't. The problem is not Cannabis, but the control of drug use. Making another drug legal in Ireland would cause a whole series of other problems.

Its regulated use for the Sick, as with any drug prescribed, is fine.

The problem with Drugs is the chain effect... Start with one and then moving to another.

Where do you stop? Does anyone honestly believe that if cannabis was legal that drug dealers would loose out? No they would move on to hard drugs.

What message are we sending to our kids? Legal cannabis, now its OK to smoke it.

I have seen people lose their jobs because of Alcohol abuse, getting people legally stoned is not helping.

In the Netherlands they Legalised it, no they are rolling back only allowing registered people.

PogMoThoin

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Seeing as has been stated previously the issues we have in this country with alcohol and the massive issues around underage drinking in particular, we really do need another drug legalized to add fuel to the social problems we have on the streets most weekends.

The very fact that you made a statement like this proves you've no idea of what you're talking about and know absolutely nothing of the effects of cannabis on the user.

The social problems on the streets you describe are 100% alcohol fueled. People don't drink like they did 20 years ago, nowadays every second pint is topped off with an off the head short and vodka and whiskey are mixed not with lemonade, but with a stronger short or stimulant (red bull). Society has got to a state where its fully acceptable for people to get shítfaced drunk. We need to move away from this by moving in a new direction.

I'd even go so far as to say it starts with not allowing drinks corporations like Diageo, Heineken etc sponsor all the big sporting events. Guinness All Ireland Championship, Heineken cup, Magners League. Much like the banning of tobacco advertising, we should demand our Government and those of the rest of Europe do the same with drinks advertising.

mikom

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

I wouldn't make too many presumptions if I was you, they tend to slap you in the face, and make you look ridiculous.I have no problem with medicinal uses for cannibas. Seeing as has been stated previously the issues we have in this country with alcohol and the massive issues around underage drinking in particular, we really do need another drug legalized to add fuel to the social problems we have on the streets most weekends.

You do know the effects of cannabis don't you?....... or maybe you don't
It's nothing like alcohol.
There follows an informative video.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDRBm-qbQI

alex73 wrote: »

No it wouldn't. The problem is not Cannabis, but the control of drug use.

You're learning.

alex73 wrote: »

Where do you stop? Does anyone honestly believe that if cannabis was legal that drug dealers would loose out? No they would move on to hard drugs.

The government would gain a tax from the sale of cannabis which could be ploughed into the gardai, not to mention the time freed up spent busting people for 5 spots.

alex73 wrote: »

What message are we sending to our kids? Legal cannabis, now its OK to smoke it.

The current government message...... "Cannabis is evil and your life will go to hell if you consume it"
A person tries it once, then again, then again.
The say "hey this is nice stuff, and my life hasn't gone to hell, so maybe the government are full of shit". " I wonder what else they are lying to me about"
Trust in governance and law enforcement is lost under the current system.
Do you wish for it to continue?

alex73 wrote: »

I have seen people lose their jobs because of Alcohol abuse, getting people legally stoned is not helping.

Abuse being the operative word.
You don't abuse alcohol do you ........... one of your posts... "Free Bud App. Yesterday the barman was telling me about a free Budweiser App, Pulled out my phone, downloaded it, It say Connaught 21 degrees Free Pint. Entered Pub code and got free pint. No catchs, no buy one get one free. Well its very good marketing. And the pint was nice aswell. " http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72578437&postcount=1

I have seen my father run a 100 acre farm whilst supping two pints of guinness, twice a week.
Some abuse, some don't.
Hurting some people because of the problems of others, moves nothing forward and makes baby Jesus cry.
I'm sure you understand

alex73 wrote: »

In the Netherlands they Legalised it, no they are rolling back only allowing registered people.

For the second time in this thread, they never they legalised it in the Netherlands.
I explained that to you earlier.
Do you need a diagram?
Hard to believe a word that you post to be fair.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

alex73 wrote: »

Where do you stop? Does anyone honestly believe that if cannabis was legal that drug dealers would loose out? No they would move on to hard drugs.

I think you'll find they already sell them. Anyway I'm an advocate of legalizing most currently proscribed substances.

HarryPotter41

PogMoThoin wrote: »

The very fact that you made a statement like this proves you've no idea of what you're talking about and know absolutely nothing of the effects of cannabis on the user.

The social problems on the streets you describe are 100% alcohol fueled. People don't drink like they did 20 years ago, nowadays every second pint is topped off with an off the head short and vodka and whiskey are mixed not with lemonade, but with a stronger short or stimulant (red bull). Society has got to a state where its fully acceptable for people to get shítfaced drunk. We need to move away from this by moving in a new direction.

I'd even go so far as to say it starts with not allowing drinks corporations like Diageo, Heineken etc sponsor all the big sporting events. Guinness All Ireland Championship, Heineken cup, Magners League. Much like the banning of tobacco advertising, we should demand our Government and those of the rest of Europe do the same with drinks advertising.

I am well aware of the effects of cannibas, I am also well aware of the effects of mixing alcohol with cannibas. And don't try and tell me it doesn't happen, I have friends who do it, and it causes reactions.

My original contention was to the remark of the OP that this was a worthy cause. Its not. The Hospice, Western Care, Big Brother Big Sister. etc, etc, etc - they are worthy causes. Legalising cannibas is way off my radar on what constitutes a worthy cause.

PogMoThoin

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

I am also well aware of the effects of mixing alcohol with cannibas. And don't try and tell me it doesn't happen, I have friends who do it, and it causes reactions.

Vodka and Red Bull causes reactions too, maybe we should ban Red Bull

mikom

I'll just leave this here for all the multiple sclerosis sufferers.....

Critically ill breaking law by using cannabis for pain relief


PEOPLE with crippling illnesses — including multiple sclerosis and cancer patients, — are among those being forced to break the law by using cannabis for medicinal purposes.


MS Ireland and a consultant neurologist, Dr Orla Hardiman, both disclosed ‘many’ sufferers use cannabis to treat spasticity and pain.

Last year, MS Ireland wrote to ex-health minister Mary Harney inquiring about the possibility of making Sativex, a cannabis- based drug licensed in Britain, available in Ireland.


"We heard back asking if we could nominate a medical professional who could help review the product," a spokesperson for MS Ireland said. "We nominated our medical adviser but that’s all we heard."

Dr Hardiman, meanwhile, said she believes cannabis can help people.

"I have a lot of patients who use it for spasticity and pain, for whom stiffness is eased and they can walk much better than they used to," she said.

"But doctors cannot override the law and it is against the law, so we can’t endorse it."


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/critically-ill-breaking-law-by-using-cannabis-for-pain-relief-156975.html#ixzz1OUcy2x29

alex73

mikom wrote: »

I'll just leave this here for all the multiple sclerosis sufferers.....

I would welcome any drug that helps terminally ill people. But there are lots of other better drugs. Alcohol also helps.. (should they drink more?)

Also it would probably no end up with the patient. there is already a post on this thread about a person using their Aunts Legal Medication. There needs to be an objective medical reason to approve it. Not research funded by interest groups, and there are thousands of other drugs that could be take in its place.

Sativex fine. After all you can buy Solpedine over the counter here and its a relation to Coccaine.

But how you can jump for a prescribed spray used for MS to legalising drugs for general use is a stretch.

mardybumbum

alex73 wrote: »

I would welcome any drug that helps terminally ill people. But there are lots of other better drugs. Alcohol also helps.. (should they drink more?)

Are there better drugs? And if so, there is no reason why cannabis couldn't be used as an adjunct to improve the therapeutic effect.
Consider Tysabri, Glatiramer or Interferon if you will. These are all high tech medicines, cost a lot of money to the taxpayer, are associated with sometimes lethal side effects and require the patient to travel to hospital to recieve them. The same cannot be said for cannabis.

I think it's important to point out that alcohol is of no help in treating MS attacks or as maintenance therapy during remissions. Infact, it would probably only serve to exacerbate the symptoms.

daveyeh

alex73 wrote: »

Unbelievable... So I am supposed to respect a group promoting an illegal activity?. Even in Amsterdam where it's legal u now have to register as Dutch user. So if the Dutch which is the only country to legalise cannabis are rolling back why the hell would ireland want to legalise drugs.... For Gods sake I have seen too many lives wasted with alcohol, let's not add more drugs. I have been on the front line of drugs!! I know the ugly picture, I have seen the ruin drugs have caused families. Don't worry when the group meets I will be there.

Won't someone please think of the children!

:pac::pac::pac:

sdiff

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

I am well aware of the effects of cannibas, I am also well aware of the effects of mixing alcohol with cannibas. And don't try and tell me it doesn't happen, I have friends who do it, and it causes reactions.

My original contention was to the remark of the OP that this was a worthy cause. Its not. The Hospice, Western Care, Big Brother Big Sister. etc, etc, etc - they are worthy causes. Legalising cannibas is way off my radar on what constitutes a worthy cause.

Your ignorance, and that of other people in this thread is a very sad reflection on today's society and the lack of education on the matter. Firstly I'd brush up on your spelling of "cannabis". Secondly if you're well aware of the effects of cannabis then you should be well aware that it is not the same thing as alcohol and it doesn't make you want to cause problems in the streets. It makes you want to relax, sit on the couch, listen to music or laugh. As well as this legalizing the drug does not increase consumption as is shown in Netherlands where consumption is not any higher and is in fact lower then a lot of developed countries. So that's that argument out the window.

Another point I feel is necessary is the alleged addictive properties of cannabis: There are none. It is not physically addictive, full stop. Sure you can get addicted in the sense you can get addicted to nice food or a football match but not in the sense of the physical addiction or the caffeine found in green tea and coffee. (Yes - it's less physically addictive then green tea)

Another point that you should know before making any comments on the matter is that it is not toxic, does NOT cause brain damage (in the studies that showed this the monkeys were completely deprived of oxygen which caused the brain damage). And while THC can be psychotic, other cannabinoids are anti psychotic. The only problem arises when the plant is modified to increase the amount of THC and reduce the amount of other anti psychotic cannabinoids which creates a net psychotic effect. This problem would be eliminated if it was legal and regulated. It is also non toxic. In order to die from it you'd need to smoke in the region of 15000 joints in twenty minutes. It's impossible. Couldn't do it even if you tried. Unlike coffee, painkillers, alcohol... Here is an article that compares deaths from each drug per year in US. Note marijuana at the bottom, the only one with 0 deaths compared to 1000-10,000 for caffeine, 150,000+ for alcohol and over 340,000 for tobacco

If you're concerned about it getting in the hands of children, well, the legality doesn't change for children. It's still illegal. it's the parents job to supervise children, not the government. Dealers will sell to children, shops wont. Are you concerned about the legality of alcohol and how easy it is for children to get it? If you're not then you shouldn't be worried about cannabis because it's less harmful then alcohol.

And finally, how can you ethically justify throwing someone in jail for using a plant with the sole intention of enjoying themselves or alleviating symptoms of sickness?

Edit: And just one more point, economically. People will use it be it legal or illegal. If it's illegal all that money is going to criminal gangs. If it's legal, it's going to honest businesses and is taxed and regulated, providing a nice source of revenue, as well as reducing the amount of money spent on law enforcement.


Knowing all this, if you still honestly believe cannabis should be illegal then you are either a complete fool or blinded by bias.

yop

sdiff wrote: »

Your ignorance, and that of other people in this thread is a very sad reflection on today's society and the lack of education on the matter. Firstly I'd brush up on your spelling of "cannabis". Secondly if you're well aware of the effects of cannabis then you should be well aware that it is not the same thing as alcohol and it doesn't make you want to cause problems in the streets. It makes you want to relax, sit on the couch, listen to music or laugh. As well as this legalizing the drug does not increase consumption as is shown in Netherlands where consumption is not any higher and is in fact lower then a lot of developed countries. So that's that argument out the window.

Another point I feel is necessary is the alleged addictive properties of cannabis: There are none. It is not physically addictive, full stop. Sure you can get addicted in the sense you can get addicted to nice food or a football match but not in the sense of the physical addiction or the caffeine found in green tea and coffee. (Yes - it's less physically addictive then green tea)

Another point that you should know before making any comments on the matter is that it is not toxic, does NOT cause brain damage (in the studies that showed this the monkeys were completely deprived of oxygen which caused the brain damage). And while THC can be psychotic, other cannabinoids are anti psychotic. The only problem arises when the plant is modified to increase the amount of THC and reduce the amount of other anti psychotic cannabinoids which creates a net psychotic effect. This problem would be eliminated if it was legal and regulated. It is also non toxic. In order to die from it you'd need to smoke in the region of 15000 joints in twenty minutes. It's impossible. Couldn't do it even if you tried. Unlike coffee, painkillers, alcohol... Here is an article that compares deaths from each drug per year in US. Note marijuana at the bottom, the only one with 0 deaths compared to 1000-10,000 for caffeine, 150,000+ for alcohol and over 340,000 for tobacco

If you're concerned about it getting in the hands of children, well, the legality doesn't change for children. It's still illegal. it's the parents job to supervise children, not the government. Dealers will sell to children, shops wont. Are you concerned about the legality of alcohol and how easy it is for children to get it? If you're not then you shouldn't be worried about cannabis because it's less harmful then alcohol.

And finally, how can you ethically justify throwing someone in jail for using a plant with the sole intention of enjoying themselves or alleviating symptoms of sickness?

Edit: And just one more point, economically. People will use it be it legal or illegal. If it's illegal all that money is going to criminal gangs. If it's legal, it's going to honest businesses and is taxed and regulated, providing a nice source of revenue, as well as reducing the amount of money spent on law enforcement.


Knowing all this, if you still honestly believe cannabis should be illegal then you are either a complete fool or blinded by bias.

Please don't attack the poster. No more warnings.

alex73

sdiff wrote: »

And finally, how can you ethically justify throwing someone in jail for using a plant with the sole intention of enjoying themselves or alleviating symptoms of sickness?

There are trained professionals who can treat sickness. They have studied an number of years. They are called Doctors. Go to them. The will give you a prescription.

Believe it or not, there are actually many drugs that you are legally take with a prescription, which are better than Cannabis.

mikom

alex73 wrote: »

They have studied an number of years.
Believe it or not, there are actually many drugs that you are legally take with a prescription, which are better than Cannabis.

This is unpossible.

alex73

mikom wrote: »

This is unpossible.

Get a doctors appointment. You might learn a thing or 2.

sdiff

alex73 wrote: »

There are trained professionals who can treat sickness. They have studied an number of years. They are called Doctors. Go to them. The will give you a prescription.

Believe it or not, there are actually many drugs that you are legally take with a prescription, which are better than Cannabis.

Ok, maybe there are, lots of medicinal cannabis users say otherwise (why use a synthetic pill that makes me sick when I can use a plant?)
And if there are better things - well better is subjective and depends on the condition and the preference of the user. But you think it's justified throwing them in jail because there are other medicines that could be considered better?
What about recreational users? You think it's justified throwing them in jail or fining them simply because they want to enjoy themselves?
If you have any other arguments against the legalisation of cannabis that I have not covered then please tell me and I'll do my best.
To Yop, sorry, I got a bit heated, I'll keep it clean.

sdiff

opr wrote: »

Alcohol in most cases I would say.

Opr

Yes and regarding the gateway drug theory - I'm sure alot of heroin users have used cannabis. It's simply explained. If you're not willing to use softer drugs such as cannabis or alcohol, you won't be willing to use hard drugs such as heroin. Correlation does not equal causation. As well as that you have the cannabis dealer in an illegal system who can offer "something stronger". If cannabis is legal and sold in shops, soft drug users wont be connected to heroin or other hard drugs.

neiphin

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Also maybe ask the hard drug user what drug was the first they ever took?

hard drug user ?
i wouldnt call weed a hard drug

anyway, coffie and fast cars were my first addictions

AnneElizabeth

I notice how the OP has still not backed up their argument with solid medical facts and never will be able to. Anyone who wants drugs to be legal is pathetic.

alex73

sdiff wrote: »

Ok, maybe there are, lots of medicinal cannabis users say otherwise (why use a synthetic pill that makes me sick when I can use a plant?)
And if there are better things - well better is subjective and depends on the condition and the preference of the user. But you think it's justified throwing them in jail because there are other medicines that could be considered better?
What about recreational users? You think it's justified throwing them in jail or fining them simply because they want to enjoy themselves?
If you have any other arguments against the legalisation of cannabis that I have not covered then please tell me and I'll do my best.
To Yop, sorry, I got a bit heated, I'll keep it clean.

are you a doctor? synthetic pill????!! what's that?

Do you know the testing path for legal drugs.. They take years to come to market, tight testing results. AND ITS NOT subjective!!!

And since when should drugs be recreational? Enjoy themselves? Sure buts its society that ends up paying.

sdiff

alex73 wrote: »

are you a doctor? synthetic pill????!! what's that?

Do you know the testing path for legal drugs.. They take years to come to market, tight testing results. AND ITS NOT subjective!!!

And since when should drugs be recreational? Enjoy themselves? Sure buts its society that ends up paying.

Yes, I'm sure drugs have a "testing path" and I'm sure it's not subjective in finding whether the drug is effective or not. It does NOT determine whether the drug is more effective then cannabis because that's simply not a goal of the pharma industry. Cannabis isn't profitable enough.
Let's take a look at paracetamol:
Paracetamol: One of the most common causes of poisoning there is!
Remember cannabis is non toxic and you cant overdose from it.
Most modern drugs that could be replaced by cannabis are similar to paracetamol in that they have some side effects and can be toxic if too much is taken.

Since when "should" drugs be recreational? Who is a person to decide what another person does in his or her spare time. If someone wants to use cannabis to enjoy themselves, without doing any significant harm to themselves or anyone else, why should they be stopped? Do you drink at all by any chance? If you do, you are using a drug for recreation.
I'm interested to see how society ends up paying. Infact I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. As it stands we pay money to enforce this shoddy law. If it were legal, you take the profit away from criminal gangs and you give it to honest businessmen and growers. It is very easy to grow so the majority will not need to be imported. Theres lots of jobs in growing and selling. As well as that we can tax it, providing lots of revenue to the state. Take the business away from criminal gangs and the gangs will start to disappear, just as the prohibition gangs of USA disappeared when prohibition ended.. So crime reduces. So let's see how society fares:
-Less spending on enforcing this shoddy law
-More jobs via selling and growing
-More taxes via taxing the product
-Less crime as the criminal gangs that sell cannabis have no more business.

I hope I covered all your arguments sufficiently and if you have any other questions or concerns just post away - if not then I hope you will take the rational choice and support legalization

shebafay

TO THE OP. MY EXPERIENCE OF THE MEDICAL EFFECTS OF CANNABIS DIFFERS TO YOUR THEORIES. MY BROTHER, RIP, DEVELOPED SCHIZOPHRENIA 10 YEARS AGO FROM USING IT AND SUBSEQUENTLY TOOK HIS OWN LIFE. MY SON HAS JUST RETURNED FROM A 6 MONTH STAY IN A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT FOR DRUG INDUCED PSYCHOSIS, SECONDARY TO CANNABIS USE. HE NOW HAS A LOWER THAN AVERAGE IQ AS HE WAS SMOKING IT FROM AGE 15 (AGAINST MY KNOWLEDGE). SO, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE CAMPAIGN TO LEGALISE CANNABIS, AND INDEED IF NEED BE, I WILL BE ORGANISING MY OWN PROTEST TO MAKE SURE IT REMAINS A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE. HOW IN THE NAME OF GOD IT WOULD BENEFIT THE OLDER GENERATION TO LEGALISE CANNABIS BEATS ME.....


*****Please change this post for capitalization, all caps looks like you are shouting, change it or it will be deleted.*****************

neiphin

shebafay wrote: »

. MY BROTHER, RIP, DEVELOPED SCHIZOPHRENIA 10 YEARS AGO FROM USING IT AND SUBSEQUENTLY TOOK HIS OWN LIFE.
MY SON HAS JUST RETURNED FROM A 6 MONTH STAY IN A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT FOR DRUG INDUCED PSYCHOSIS, SECONDARY TO CANNABIS USE. HE NOW HAS A LOWER THAN AVERAGE IQ AS HE WAS SMOKING IT FROM AGE 15

everyone knows that weed should not be taken by under 20s, mind not fully developed,
if it was legalised shops would NOT sell it to minors.
they would lose their licence

would some of this be down to your own parenting skills ?

mikom

Truly sorry for your troubles shebafay.

shebafay wrote: »

MY BROTHER, RIP, DEVELOPED SCHIZOPHRENIA 10 YEARS AGO FROM USING IT AND SUBSEQUENTLY TOOK HIS OWN LIFE.

It was proven that cannabis caused his Schizophrenia, yes?
How was this proven?

shebafay wrote: »

MY SON HAS JUST RETURNED FROM A 6 MONTH STAY IN A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT FOR DRUG INDUCED PSYCHOSIS, SECONDARY TO CANNABIS USE. HE NOW HAS A LOWER THAN AVERAGE IQ AS HE WAS SMOKING IT FROM AGE 15 (AGAINST MY KNOWLEDGE).

Young people should not smoke, tobacco or anything else. No argument there.
Young people should not drink alcohol either.

A publican will ask a 15 year old for ID. A dealer will not.
This all comes back to prohibition.
Your son had access to cannabis because its point of delivery was not regulated, amongst other things.
Your son then abused a substance whilst his mind was still in the formative phase........ not advisable.

shebafay wrote: »

I WILL BE ORGANISING MY OWN PROTEST TO MAKE SURE IT REMAINS A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE.

The control has been really successful so far by the looks of it.
You would like more of the same, yes?

shebafay wrote: »

HOW IN THE NAME OF GOD IT WOULD BENEFIT THE OLDER GENERATION TO LEGALISE CANNABIS BEATS ME.....

Better controls and treatment possibly.
Ask Portugal......

A study by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, has found that in the five years after decriminalisation, Portugal’s drug problems had improved in every measured way. The man behind the research, Glenn Greenwald, a lawyer, told Time: “Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success.”

Portuguese policy is that possession of small amounts of any drug is not a criminal offence; if you are found possessing it, you can be put before a panel of a psychologist, social worker and legal adviser, who will decide appropriate treatment. You are free to refuse that treatment, and a jail sentence is not an option. Drug trafficking is still illegal and punishable by jail.

I’ll just go through the figures; apologies for the slew of statistics. Drug use among 13- to 15-year-olds fell from 14.1 per cent in 2001 to 10.6 per cent in 2006. Among 16- to 18-year-olds it has dropped from 27.6 per cent to 21.6 per cent. This, incidentally, has come after years of steadily increasing drug use among the young; between 1995 and 2001, use in the 16-to-18 bracket leapt up from 14.1 per cent to its 2001 high. This drop has come against a background of increasing drug use across the rest of the EU.

There has been a mild increase in use among older groups, 19-24 and up, but this is expected due to the rise in use in the young in the 1990s; it’s a “cohort effect”, meaning that young people get older, and take their habits with them.

Further, HIV infections among drug users fell, drug-related deaths fell, there was a decrease in trafficking, and a huge amount of money was saved by offering treatment instead of prison sentences.

The Portugal experience suggests that decriminalisation is exactly the right approach for their stated priorities of reducing drug use and reducing crime. If your approach has been shown, several times, to achieve the opposite of what you intend, it may be time to change that approach.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tomchivers/100047485/portugal-drug-decriminalisation-a-resounding-success-will-britain-respond-no/

paul26

After reading this thread I cant believe how many closed minds there are to this topic about legalizing cannabis. Some people are just so stupid about this topic, all the people that are disagreeing about the legalization have no clue what there talking about. Just because its legalized doesn't mean people are going to be driving around stoned. I drink but I don't drive around drunk or go to work drunk. I smoke weed to and I would never drive around stoned either.
Everyone who disagree's is stupid because they are disagreeing with something they never read about, they have just been told about it, they been told weed is bad, they never tried it or probably think theve never even seem some1 been stoned even though 1/2 the people around them a stoned.

Everyone that's looking for scientific research, you wont find it from your trusted scientific sources because, because the people in charge of science don't want you to know its a medicine (cure), bio fuel, strongest fabric, source of perfectly balanced nutrition for humans, its good for you and the list goes on.
Because there is no profit in it for big pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, etc. How would pharmaceutical companies make money if we could grow a medicine in our back gardens which was more effective for thousands of illnesses, than poisonous pharmaceutical.

Personally I think its the answer to all the worlds problems, there is know other plant on the earth which can produce as much fuel per square foot as hemp. It also converts as much carbon dioxide to air in the growing of it for fuel as it releases into the atmosphere when combusted in an engine, therefore if we used hemp as biofuel we would have an issue with carbon emissions. And all we here about is carbon tax, high fuel prices and the global warming scam.

I smoke quite regularly and i definitely think it makes me a better person, makes me have more interest in learning new things and helps me focus on what is important in life. I never robbed any1, never hurt any1, never lost my job or my house, and I would say I have a very good career.

sdiff

shebafay wrote: »

TO THE OP. MY EXPERIENCE OF THE MEDICAL EFFECTS OF CANNABIS DIFFERS TO YOUR THEORIES. MY BROTHER, RIP, DEVELOPED SCHIZOPHRENIA 10 YEARS AGO FROM USING IT AND SUBSEQUENTLY TOOK HIS OWN LIFE. MY SON HAS JUST RETURNED FROM A 6 MONTH STAY IN A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT FOR DRUG INDUCED PSYCHOSIS, SECONDARY TO CANNABIS USE. HE NOW HAS A LOWER THAN AVERAGE IQ AS HE WAS SMOKING IT FROM AGE 15 (AGAINST MY KNOWLEDGE). SO, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE CAMPAIGN TO LEGALISE CANNABIS, AND INDEED IF NEED BE, I WILL BE ORGANISING MY OWN PROTEST TO MAKE SURE IT REMAINS A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE. HOW IN THE NAME OF GOD IT WOULD BENEFIT THE OLDER GENERATION TO LEGALISE CANNABIS BEATS ME.....


*****Please change this post for capitalization, all caps looks like you are shouting, change it or it will be deleted.*****************

I understand your concern however you're assuming alot. Firstly you cannot prove that cannabis causes psychosis. What happens alot of the time is people with psychotic symptoms are the type of people who would use cannabis, they might "self medicate" their anxiety with cannabis. Here is a study that suggests that it does not infact cause schizophrenia.

If your son was using it while his brain was still developing, well, that's obviously not a good idea. But another point is, did the law help those sufferers? If they got a fine or criminal record because of the current law, would that help? It seems it didn't help. Infact I'd say it did more harm. If cannabis was legal and your son went to a shop to buy it, they'd say no as it would be illegal for minors. But all he had to do was find a dealer who didn't care about your sons age. Another concern is that the cannabis is unregulated: it can be "breeded" in a certain way to produce more THC (and hence less of the other "cannabinoids" which are anti psychotic) In laymans terms this means that unregulated stuff on the street is more likely to cause problems and if it were regulated there wouldn't be these problems.


So yes, I would argue that cannabis being legal would actually help the two people in these cases. You also have to compare like with like. If you smoke too much, all day every day, you're bound to have problems as you are bound to have problems if you drink all the time or eat too much. Does that mean we should ban alcohol or fast food? No, it's not fair on people that can enjoy it responsibly to ban it because of people who can't control themselves. And as I've already pointed out, making it illegal takes the business away from thugs and gives it to honest businessmen and provides tax revenue. Also reduces crime and reduces the amount of spending needed on law enforcement. We cannot afford to enforce the current law and it is sickening to see the type of thugs who profit because of the law.

sdiff

paul26 wrote: »

After reading this thread I cant believe how many closed minds there are to this topic about legalizing cannabis. Some people are just so stupid about this topic, all the people that are disagreeing about the legalization have no clue what there talking about. Just because its legalized doesn't mean people are going to be driving around stoned. I drink but I don't drive around drunk or go to work drunk. I smoke weed to and I would never drive around stoned either.
Everyone who disagree's is stupid because they are disagreeing with something they never read about, they have just been told about it, they been told weed is bad, they never tried it or probably think theve never even seem some1 been stoned even though 1/2 the people around them a stoned.

Everyone that's looking for scientific research, you wont find it from your trusted scientific sources because, because the people in charge of science don't want you to know its a medicine (cure), bio fuel, strongest fabric, source of perfectly balanced nutrition for humans, its good for you and the list goes on.
Because there is no profit in it for big pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, etc. How would pharmaceutical companies make money if we could grow a medicine in our back gardens which was more effective for thousands of illnesses, than poisonous pharmaceutical.

Personally I think its the answer to all the worlds problems, there is know other plant on the earth which can produce as much fuel per square foot as hemp. It also converts as much carbon dioxide to air in the growing of it for fuel as it releases into the atmosphere when combusted in an engine, therefore if we used hemp as biofuel we would have an issue with carbon emissions. And all we here about is carbon tax, high fuel prices and the global warming scam.

I smoke quite regularly and i definitely think it makes me a better person, makes me have more interest in learning new things and helps me focus on what is important in life. I never robbed any1, never hurt any1, never lost my job or my house, and I would say I have a very good career.

Good post. I agree that most people who oppose legalization are close minded. I think that'll change when the current generation are replaced by the college students of today who think a bit more and are less influenced by the local church. Governments repeatedly ignore scientific advice that it should be legal.

alchemist33

sdiff wrote: »

Here is a study that suggests that it does not infact cause schizophrenia.

Actually, no. Your study suggests cannabis does not produce dopamine release, but it may cause psychotic symptoms...

THC markedly increased psychosis-like symptoms on the Psychotomimetic States Inventory (PSI)

sdiff

alchemist33 wrote: »

Actually, no. Your study suggests cannabis does not produce dopamine release, but it may cause psychotic symptoms...

Don't pick and choose what you quote. "This result challenges current models of striatal dopamine release as the mechanism mediating cannabis as risk factor for schizophrenia."
As well as that, this was only using THC. THC is often regarded as the "psychotic" part. The drug used in the trial didn't use CBD, another constituent of cannabis which is ANTI psychotic. It's surprising that even though they weren't using the anti psychotic part of the drug, it still challenged the schizophrenia claims.

yop

paul26 wrote: »

After reading this thread I cant believe how many closed minds there are to this topic about legalizing cannabis. Some people are just so stupid about this topic, all the people that are disagreeing about the legalization have no clue what there talking about. Just because its legalized doesn't mean people are going to be driving around stoned. I drink but I don't drive around drunk or go to work drunk. I smoke weed to and I would never drive around stoned either.
Everyone who disagree's is stupid because they are disagreeing with something they never read about, they have just been told about it, they been told weed is bad, they never tried it or probably think theve never even seem some1 been stoned even though 1/2 the people around them a stoned.

Everyone that's looking for scientific research, you wont find it from your trusted scientific sources because, because the people in charge of science don't want you to know its a medicine (cure), bio fuel, strongest fabric, source of perfectly balanced nutrition for humans, its good for you and the list goes on.
Because there is no profit in it for big pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, etc. How would pharmaceutical companies make money if we could grow a medicine in our back gardens which was more effective for thousands of illnesses, than poisonous pharmaceutical.

Personally I think its the answer to all the worlds problems, there is know other plant on the earth which can produce as much fuel per square foot as hemp. It also converts as much carbon dioxide to air in the growing of it for fuel as it releases into the atmosphere when combusted in an engine, therefore if we used hemp as biofuel we would have an issue with carbon emissions. And all we here about is carbon tax, high fuel prices and the global warming scam.

I smoke quite regularly and i definitely think it makes me a better person, makes me have more interest in learning new things and helps me focus on what is important in life. I never robbed any1, never hurt any1, never lost my job or my house, and I would say I have a very good career.

Paul - no more warnings, people who have opinions different to you aren't "stupid", carry on with that behavior and you will have a lot more time on your hands for pastimes.

alchemist33

sdiff wrote: »

Don't pick and choose what you quote. "This result challenges current models of striatal dopamine release as the mechanism mediating cannabis as risk factor for schizophrenia."

Your quote does not say that cannabis does not cause schizophrenia. It says striatal dopamine release is not the mechanism by which cannabis can cause schizophrenia. They're two different things.

sdiff

alchemist33 wrote: »

Your quote does not say that cannabis does not cause schizophrenia. It says striatal dopamine release is not the mechanism by which cannabis can cause schizophrenia. They're two different things.

Cannabis use does not cause schizophrenia
A study conducted by a british government advisory body.

paul26

yop wrote: »

Paul - no more warnings, people who have opinions different to you aren't "stupid", carry on with that behavior and you will have a lot more time on your hands for pastimes.

Ok, I apolligise for using the word stupid, Il take that back, but it really gets to me when people are willing to make such a decision with such a lack of knowledge. The truth is when you start researching about cannabis you will discover a totally different understanding than what your told by the media and corrupt goverment scientist.

Just check this video out, true story FACT, marijuana the cure for cancer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjhT9282-Tw

paul26

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

I notice how the OP has still not backed up their argument with solid medical facts and never will be able to. Anyone who wants drugs to be legal is pathetic.

If you take the time AnneElizabeth and anyone else who doesnt believe to watch that video on youtube that i posted above, you will realize there is many solid medical facts. Curing 10 people of cancer and having 10 doctors to testify that the guy cured 10 cancer patients is solid medical facts. I also know a close friend whose found marijuana very helpful when he had cancer, which is now cured.

Marijuana isn't a drug, its a plant (HERB). I have never even tried any other drug in my life and never will and I don't promote legalization of it, but I do promote legalization of marijuana because through my life I have seen how people can talk about how bad it is and how it ruins peoples lives when that simply isn't true. I have seen both sides of the argument, and the reasons to legalize totally out weight the reasons not to. In fact noone here has yet given a descent excuse to not legalize it, schizophrenia there is no solid proof, there is actual a serious lack of proof and from my experience of about 15 years smoking me or any of my friends who smoke which is a lot of people, never had any mental issues at all. In all my years ive never heard of it either and I met alot of stoners.

Bottom line Marijuana is the most beneficial plant and most human friendly plant to the human race there could possibly be and that is a fact. Most of the worlds most sucessfull people smoked marijuana and admitted it.

Sir Richard Branson
Barack Obama
Stephen King
Aaron Sorkin
Michael Bloomberg
Ted Turner
Arnold Schwarzenegger

and the list goes on just research it.

PogMoThoin

paul26 wrote: »

Bottom line Marijuana is the most beneficial plant and most human friendly plant to the human race there could possibly be and that is a fact. Most of the worlds most sucessfull people smoked marijuana and admitted it.

Sir Richard Branson
Barack Obama
Stephen King
Aaron Sorkin
Michael Bloomberg
Ted Turner
Arnold Schwarzenegger

and the list goes on just research it.

Add Brian Cowen to that list
http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2007/0517/ireland/mhkfkfkfkfcw/

Oldtree

Don't be silly, it is a drug. The chemical you want to smoke is mainly THC which is produced at the tip of stalked glands on the surface of the plant.

While I am happy for it to be used for medical use, I am unsure that we should legalise it for general consumption. Do we not have enough problems with drink already? I saw 3 teenagers drinking in the local playground at 1pm yesterday. You are codding yourself if you think that there are no problems with smoking, the least of which is cancer! There are many studies that show that the developing brain of a teenager is impaired by smoking dope.

Ireland has a major problem with drink, we dont need to add another.

"But the money is going to criminals, we can tax it" I hear you say. The criminals would just find some other way of earning that money.

sdiff

Oldtree wrote: »

Don't be silly, it is a drug. The chemical you want to smoke is mainly THC which is produced at the tip of stalked glands on the surface of the plant.

While I am happy for it to be used for medical use, I am unsure that we should legalise it for general consumption. Do we not have enough problems with drink already? I saw 3 teenagers drinking in the local playground at 1pm yesterday. You are codding yourself if you think that there are no problems with smoking, the least of which is cancer! There are many studies that show that the developing brain of a teenager is impaired by smoking dope.

Ireland has a major problem with drink, we dont need to add another.

"But the money is going to criminals, we can tax it" I hear you say. The criminals would just find some other way of earning that money.

Cannabis is vastly different to drink. While there are different types with different effects (there's "indica" the "sit inside and watch TV" one and "sativa" a more energetic one) it doesn't even compare to alcohol in terms of damage to society. You don't get over confident and have the urge to fight or vandalise like alcohol. And there are studies that show cannabis use alone does not cause cancer. As well as this if you're health conscious simply use a vaporizer. I'd argue that legalizing cannabis would REDUCE these problems you speak of, as people have a choice other then drink if they want to have fun. It would hypothetically reduce alcohol consumption which would reduce problems associated with alcohol.

edit: And I disagree with you on the criminals. There's a reason there are so many cannabis related criminal gangs: It's so damn easy to make money with. There's the argument that is often stated "they'll just move on to harder drugs". That doesn't have any standing though because a) they already sell hard drugs so they can't "move onto it" and b) Hard drug usage decreases as people can use cannabis legally without getting involved in illegal drugs, so they have less exposure and are less likely to take the risk

mikom

Oldtree wrote: »

I am unsure that we should legalise it for general consumption. Do we not have enough problems with drink already? I saw 3 teenagers drinking in the local playground at 1pm yesterday.

I saw 3 teenagers smoking cigarettes in the local playground at 1pm yesterday.
Should we outlaw alcohol because of this.

Oldtree wrote: »

There are many studies that show that the developing brain of a teenager is impaired by smoking dope.

I would tend to agree with this.
But street dealers don't care about this as they have no trading code.
License cannabis and you are wrestling control back somewhat.

The issue of children keeps being brought up by those arguing against cannabis.
Let me be clear....
Children should not smoke tobacco.
Children should not smoke cannabis.
Children should not drink alcohol.
Children should not drive lorries.

Only one of these is currently prohibited to both children and adults.
Bit unfair don't ya think.

Oldtree, to quote your sig "A Tree is for life!"
What if eating apples harmed the developing mind of the teenager, and because of this nobody was allowed to grow apple trees.
Sounds insane?
Closer to the truth than more people would believe.

Oldtree wrote: »

"But the money is going to criminals, we can tax it" I hear you say. The criminals would just find some other way of earning that money.

But we would still have a tax intake from it which can be used for policing for instance.

shebafay

neiphin wrote: »

everyone knows that weed should not be taken by under 20s, mind not fully developed,
if it was legalised shops would NOT sell it to minors.
they would lose their licence

would some of this be down to your own parenting skills ?

@ neiphin
my parenting skills are not up for discussion here. it is unfair and churlish of you to question that. i certainly didnt bring up my son to use cannabis, and my mother didnt either. as i stated, my experience of witnessing the medical effects of cannabis differs from other people. i did not see any medical benefit to my son or brother from using same.

In The Sticks

I agree with Alex, a complete waste of space having these guys in here, and to think the people of Co. Roscommon elected Luke 'Ming' Flanagan as their TD, Mr. Flanagan condones the use of illegal drugs and says it's ok to smoke. such a role model, no wonder our country is where it is today, it makes me want to vomit.

sdiff

In The Sticks wrote: »

I agree with Alex, a complete waste of space having these guys in here, and to think the people of Co. Roscommon elected Luke 'Ming' Flanagan as their TD, Mr. Flanagan condones the use of illegal drugs and says it's ok to smoke. what a complete arse hole, such a role model, no wonder our country is where it is today, it makes me want to vomit.

Do you actually have any valid arguments or are you just shouting angrily for no reason? I've already disputed every point with medical facts so I'd love to hear your reason for opposing it.

mikom

In The Sticks wrote: »

I agree with Alex, a complete waste of space having these guys in here, and to think the people of Co. Roscommon elected Luke 'Ming' Flanagan as their TD, Mr. Flanagan condones the use of illegal drugs and says it's ok to smoke. what a complete arse hole, such a role model, no wonder our country is where it is today, it makes me want to vomit.

Loud noises.

PogMoThoin

In The Sticks wrote: »

I agree with Alex, a complete waste of space having these guys in here, and to think the people of Co. Roscommon elected Luke 'Ming' Flanagan as their TD, Mr. Flanagan condones the use of illegal drugs and says it's ok to smoke. what a complete arse hole, such a role model, no wonder our country is where it is today, it makes me want to vomit.

This ignorant backward attitude has this country in the state its in. I live in co. Roscommon, I voted for Ming because He was the most honest of the candidates, the only one who called to my door and stayed for 25minutes telling us what He believes in for the people of Roscommon.

Snowc

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

I notice how the OP has still not backed up their argument with solid medical facts and never will be able to. Anyone who wants drugs to be legal is pathetic.

Great post anyone who wants drugs legal are crazy especially if the are being used to cure an illness.I am organising a march to ban chemists in Mayo, if you want I can sent you a pm with details?

shebafay wrote: »

TO THE OP. MY EXPERIENCE OF THE MEDICAL EFFECTS OF CANNABIS DIFFERS TO YOUR THEORIES. MY BROTHER, RIP, DEVELOPED SCHIZOPHRENIA 10 YEARS AGO FROM USING IT AND SUBSEQUENTLY TOOK HIS OWN LIFE. MY SON HAS JUST RETURNED FROM A 6 MONTH STAY IN A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT FOR DRUG INDUCED PSYCHOSIS, SECONDARY TO CANNABIS USE. HE NOW HAS A LOWER THAN AVERAGE IQ AS HE WAS SMOKING IT FROM AGE 15 (AGAINST MY KNOWLEDGE). SO, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE CAMPAIGN TO LEGALISE CANNABIS, AND INDEED IF NEED BE, I WILL BE ORGANISING MY OWN PROTEST TO MAKE SURE IT REMAINS A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE. HOW IN THE NAME OF GOD IT WOULD BENEFIT THE OLDER GENERATION TO LEGALISE CANNABIS BEATS ME.....

Another great post made even better by the use of the caps lock button.If your son had got diabetes from eating to much sugar would you protest to have sugar made illegal ?

shebafay wrote: »

@ neiphin
my parenting skills are not up for discussion here. it is unfair and churlish of you to question that. i certainly didnt bring up my son to use cannabis, and my mother didnt either. as i stated, my experience of witnessing the medical effects of cannabis differs from other people. i did not see any medical benefit to my son or brother from using same.

If your son doesnt get any use from cannabis then it should be kept illegal?There is plenty of prescription drugs that can cause problems in some people but that doesn't stop being legal.

In The Sticks wrote: »

I agree with Alex, a complete waste of space having these guys in here, and to think the people of Co. Roscommon elected Luke 'Ming' Flanagan as their TD, Mr. Flanagan condones the use of illegal drugs and says it's ok to smoke. what a complete arse hole, such a role model, no wonder our country is where it is today, it makes me want to vomit.

Great post ,Ming flanagan bankrupted this country by smoking cannabis and made matters worst by taking a 50% pay cut.I know my sons role model is Bertie Ahern so he should be safe.