RTE Two HD on Sky [Merged]

Manc-Red

Jon_459 wrote: »

Getting "No signal" error
What am I missing ?

Working here no problem - do a rescan on 10.743 22 5/6 & all will be good.

STB

copacetic wrote: »

The same 16:9 RTE2 SD feed goes to all digital platforms including all graphics, the same RTE2HD goes to all platforms, nothing new has to be done. Nothing will change for SD viewers on UPC or Sky.

Rather it did, when RTE operated a SD feed for their analogue output.

So what what RTE2 SD feed are you talking about after October ? There will be no RTE2 SD feed broadcast after ASO. RTE will have the feeds from their HD desks to their Tandberg HD encoders come October. There will be no need to encode SD output as they wont be running an SD feed, as they dont have an RTE2 SD station to encode in parallel.

All uplinking and encoding done by Sky from Donnybrook is the other issue. The only RTE2 station that they are required to carry is the one they requested under the must offer rule, the HD one. No other RTE2 will exist after October. They cannot request a HD station and then re-transmit it in SD! That is altering it. RTE is the broadcaster. Again, they wont have an SD version of RTE2HD on their network come October!

RTE2HD is a branded HD only station. It is really that simple.

Granted it is a unusual position as BBC/Ch4/ITV still broadcast natively in both SD and HD on their networks, so it is not an issue in the UK. However, what you guys are talking about is akin to Sky carrying BBC HD in SD. BBC would go mad. RTE should be doing likewise, but of course that €50m deficit is no doubt fresh in their minds.

How the must offer deal was done and how the carry rules are being ignored are my questions. Sky and UPC being let away with murder and being just given the stations despite the fact that they cannot fulfill their end of the obligations, ie provide it to all their customers at NO extra cost.

copacetic

STB wrote: »

What RTE2 SD feed ? There will be no RTE2 SD feed broadcast after ASO. RTE will have one feed to their HD encoder come October. There will be no need to encode SD output as they wont be running an SD feed, as they dont have an RTE2 SD station to encode in parallel.

All uplinking and encoding done by Sky from Donnybrook is the other issue. The only RTE2 station that they are required to carry is the one they requested under the must offer rule, the HD one. They cant request a HD station and then re-transmit it in SD! That is altering it. RTE is the broadcaster. They wont have an SD version of RTE2HD on their network!
RTE2HD is a branded HD only station. It is really that simple.

This is totally wrong, I have no idea where you are getting it from.

There has been a 16:9 RTE2 SD video feed provided to UPC and Sky for years, switching off the 14:9 RTE2 video feed on analogue terrestrial in October has absolutley no relevance to those feeds. The only change will be UPC moving their analogue cable customers to the 16:9 feed which I would imagine will happen very soon, before ASO messages start appearing on the 14:9 feed.

Each platform has its own encoding equipment, HD is additional not instead of.

marno21

According to http://www.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php?liste=1&live=69&lang=en&mux=10744

RTE Two HD is currently running CBR video at 12Mbps, with two audio channels of 384k AC3 and 192k AC3 (which I assume is AD). A massive improvement over 192k MP2 anyway

Kensington

STB wrote: »

Rather it did, when RTE operated a SD feed for their analogue output.

So what what RTE2 SD feed are you talking about after October ? There will be no RTE2 SD feed broadcast after ASO. RTE will have the feeds from their HD desks to their Tandberg HD encoders come October. There will be no need to encode SD output as they wont be running an SD feed, as they dont have an RTE2 SD station to encode in parallel.

All uplinking and encoding done by Sky from Donnybrook is the other issue. The only RTE2 station that they are required to carry is the one they requested under the must offer rule, the HD one. No other RTE2 will exist after October. They cannot request a HD station and then re-transmit it in SD! That is altering it. RTE is the broadcaster. Again, they wont have an SD version of RTE2HD on their network come October!

RTE2HD is a branded HD only station. It is really that simple.

Granted it is a unusual position as BBC/Ch4/ITV still broadcast natively in both SD and HD on their networks, so it is not an issue in the UK. However, what you guys are talking about is akin to Sky carrying BBC HD in SD. BBC would go mad. RTE should be doing likewise, but of course that €50m deficit is no doubt fresh in their minds.

How the must offer deal was done and how the carry rules are being ignored are my questions. Sky and UPC being let away with murder and being just given the stations despite the fact that they cannot fulfill their end of the obligations, ie provide it to all their customers at NO extra cost.

The Snell playout system and house router can manage both SD and HD - as is currently the case. Nothing need change come October. I think you may be misinterpreting the rules

RTE TWO must be HD only on SaorView because the bandwidth for multicasting SD/HD is unjustifiable and unnecessary given the technical capabilities of SaorView. It doesn't say it MUST be HD everywhere (what happens to RTE.ie live streaming for example? I wouldn't fancy being in the RTE Information Office on the receiving end of rural folks trying to watch a 1440x1080 HD stream over their mobile internet dongle :P)

And on that point, your suggestion that Sky are/would be altering RTE TWO somehow? Well, currently, RTE TWO "SD" leaves the router at 720x576 SDI but is:
- 14:9 letterbox for ATT (mix of fibre-SDI, high bitrate compressed and off-air Sky DSAT)
- 14:9 letterbox for UPC analogue (not sure how they source exactly)
- 16:9 widescreen at 720x576 for UPC digital
- 16:9 widescreen at 544x576 for sky digital
- 16:9 HD at 1440x1080 for SaorView (RTE TWO)
- 16:9 widescreen at 544x576 for SaorView (RTE ONE)
- any combination of resolutions for RTE.ie Live, RTE Player, aertv

So nothing will really be different come October, you'll get RTE TWO it just might not be the same resolution - things like stings, sweepers and interstitials might differentiate RTE TWO and RTE TWO HD - the channel content will ultimately remain the same regardless of resolution.

STB

copacetic wrote: »

This is totally wrong, I have no idea where you are getting it from.

Each platform has its own encoding equipment, HD is additional not instead of.

From the Broadcasting Act 2009, Section 77 sets out both Must-carry and must-offer obligations.

Section 77 Broadcasting Act (MUST OFFER)
(12) RTÉ, TG4 and the television service programme contractor shall ensure that their must-offer services are at all times offered for broadcast or re-transmission (subject to agreement as to fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms of use) by means of every satellite television service.

“ must-offer service ” means a free-to-air television service provided for the time being by RTÉ, TG4 and the free-to-air service provided under section 70 by the television service programme contractor;

RTE as the "broadcaster" come October (ASO) will have ONLY these must offer services: RTE1, RTE2HD, RTE News, RTE Jnr and RTE+1 (which is a timeshare channel Max 4 years in Phase I). These *new services were approved under Ministerial consent (as required) on 23/02/2011. RTE2HD was a new specific HD ONLY branded service.

These are the services after ASO. There will be no SD version of RTE2HD "broadcast" ie no SD service of this station.

Both Sky and UPC specifically requested RTE2HD the newly ministerially approved "service" (as distinct from any SD station) under the must offer clause of the Broadcasting Act 2009.

When the must offer of re-transmission is accepted it must be carried. I am specifically talking about the request to carry RTE2HD.

The legislation say that any "such must offer requests agreed shall not result in an additional charge on any subscriber to a satellite television service by reason of the making available to that subscriber of any must-offer service by way of the satellite television service".

“ re-transmission ” means near-simultaneous, unaltered and unabridged transmission;

You do not re-encode a specific station that you have requested when the broadcaster themselves aren't "broadcasting" that service in that native format.

@ Kensington. Interesting points, but

* the playout systems employed by RTE are SD and HD to feed their respective SD and HD encoders for RTE1 vs RTE2HD.

* the RTE2HD service carrier and service type is there at all times in the transport stream regardless of how it is upscaled etc. You require a specific the MPEG4 H264 hardware to decode this service. There is no other SD "RTE2 service" broadcast digitally by RTENL.

* Stream feeds on websites are nothing to do with traditional broadcasting or obligations of network operators. They are also not mandatory nor utilised as such as a broadcast platform in Ireland. They are not part of RTEs PSB requirements.

Marco85

hd isnt showing on mine when i scan the channels. just standard rte 2

eddiem10

Marco85 wrote: »

hd isnt showing on mine when i scan the channels. just standard rte 2

The frequency you will find it on is 10.744 H 22.0 5/6 under the label 1270.

copacetic

STB wrote: »

From the Broadcasting Act 2009, Section 77 sets out both Must-carry and must-offer obligations.




RTE as the "broadcaster" come October (ASO) will have ONLY these must offer services: RTE1, RTE2HD, RTE News, RTE Jnr and RTE+1 (which is a timeshare channel Max 4 years in Phase I). These *new services were approved under Ministerial consent (as required) on 23/11/2011. RTE2HD was a specific HD ONLY branded service.

These are the services after ASO. There will be no SD version of RTE2HD "broadcast".

Both Sky and UPC specifically requested RTE2HD (as distinct from any SD station) under the must offer clause of the Broadcasting Act 2009. For your information any new services that RTE operate must receive ministerial approval. RTE2HD was one such station.

When the must offer of re-transmission is accepted it must be carried. I am specifically talking about the request to carry RTE2HD.

The legislation say that any "such must offer requests agreed shall not result in an additional charge on any subscriber to a satellite television service by reason of the making available to that subscriber of any must-offer service by way of the satellite television service".

I don't see anything at all in this about RTE2 16:9 SD dissapearing? The two lines in bold appear to be purely your opinion?

All those new services approved were additional services.

Is there some agenda here that is passing the rest of us by? Even if you were right about must carry and must offer, they are just that minimums, they don't limit or control what broadcasters can offer or what platforms can carry outside of their obligations.

Edit - From your edit I'm guessing you are counting RTE TV and RTENL as one. They aren't, just because RTENL will only broadcast RTE2 HD from October, doesn't mean RTE TV won't continue to provide their license fee payers who happen to have UPC or Sky with an SD service. I presume you well know this, why would RTE TV turn off a service to 80% or so of their viewers, all license fee holders?

copacetic

copacetic wrote: »

Is there some agenda here that is passing the rest of us by?

I think it's an anti-pay TV agenda.

STB

copacetic wrote: »

I don't see anything at all in this about RTE2 16:9 SD dissapearing? The two lines in bold appear to be purely your opinion?

All those new services approved were additional services.

Is there some agenda here that is passing the rest of us by? Even if you were right about must carry and must offer, they are just that minimums, they don't limit or control what broadcasters can offer or what platforms can carry outside of their obligations.

No agenda. Why would I ? Do you really think I have one ?

copacetic wrote: »

I don't see anything at all in this about RTE2 16:9 SD dissapearing?

Analogue Switch Off. Digital Switch Over. ALL of RTE's services are those carried on the Saorview network as is their statutory obligation. Any of these services after that are part of the must offer rule for platform friendliness.

RTE2 will only be broadcast as a service in HD.

copacetic wrote: »

must carry and must offer, they are just that minimums, they don't limit or control what broadcasters can offer or what platforms can carry outside of their obligations.

RTE can only offer what services they have. One of these services in question is a HD only "broadcast service". Said HD service specifically requested by Sky/UPC under the must offer rule surely must be carried as such!

Re-encoding it otherwise to save money on must carry obligations by pay operators (no extra costs to subscribers) will certainly have those with SD boxes wondering what HD is all about, given the on screen dog. Shouldnt it be available to subscribers at NO additional cost ? Sorry maybe I misread the legislation!

Are you suggesting that RTE should offer a service to pay platforms that they are not carrying on their own PSB network or allow it be displayed in any other way and demand specific feeds not otherwise broadcast by it ?

Thats what my argument boils down to.

copacetic

STB wrote: »

Are you suggesting that RTE should offer a service to pay platforms that they are not carrying on their PSB network or allow it be displayed in any other way ?

Thats what my argument boils don to.

absolutely, rte tv should and will continue to offer a SD RTE2 service to their TV license holders who happen to have chosen Sky and UPC. They will continue to generate it exactly as they currently do, with absolutely no change come October or for the forseeable furture. It may go on the NI Mux. They would also offer this to RTE NL/Saorview if they needed it.

I'd bet a gazillion dollars on it.

I'm meant agenda as in I believe you know well the above is the case, but are saying it isn't and I can't work out why. So felt it was possibly a philosophical or political reason?

STB

copacetic wrote: »

Edit - From your edit I'm guessing you are counting RTE TV and RTENL as one. They aren't, just because RTENL will only broadcast RTE2 HD from October, doesn't mean RTE TV won't continue to provide their license fee payers who happen to have UPC or Sky with an SD service. I presume you well know this, why would RTE TV turn off a service to 80% or so of their viewers, all license fee holders?

I am talking about RTE as the organisation as set out in the Broadcasting Act and their obligations as a PSB and their primary responsibility to ensure the provisions of their "services" firstly on a free to air basis. I am not talking about people (was it licence holders you just used!) who choose to subscribe to third party pay operators. What they receive is a private agreement between those individuals and the pay operator. They do not need to subscribe to pay operartors to receive RTE's free to air services.

Contrary to your belief RTE as an organisation do not provide seperate services for pay TV companies. That would be the tail wagging the dog scenario. They do have obligation to offer their services under the must offer rule. They cannot offer a service they do not broadcast! And RTE2 in standard definition will be one such station that dont have to offer come October this year!

Much like BBC HD does not broadcast in SD, Sky dont encode it as SD.

I cannot keep following your edits.

copacetic

STB wrote: »

They cannot offer a service they do not broadcast! And RTE2 in standard definition will be one such station come October this year.

14:9 Analogue will switch off in October. 16:9 RTE2 SD can and will continue to be broadcast. There is absolutley nothing in the broadcast act preventing RTE from doing so, as long as they offer the service to whoever wants it, which they will. You keep saying it will dissapear and only HD will be available with nothing at all to back that up.

Sky have nothing at all to do with BBC encoding on their platform, BBC uplink all their own channels and continue to encode and uplink SD versions of BBC1 in spite of also providing BBC1 HD

STB

copacetic wrote: »

14:9 Analogue will switch off in October. 16:9 RTE2 SD can and will continue to be broadcast. There is absolutley nothing in the broadcast act preventing RTE from doing so, as long as they offer the service to whoever wants it, which they will. You keep saying it will dissapear and only HD will be available with nothing at all to back that up.

Sky have nothing at all to do with BBC encoding on their platform, BBC uplink all their own channels and continue to encode and uplink SD versions of BBC1 in spite of also providing BBC1 HD

I keep saying ASO will happen in October. The last hangout of RTE2 as you know it. In its place, digital.... The broadcast services RTE will provide are well defined within the Saorview suite! I doubt that you didnt understand that.

It might have escaped your attention but RTE's primary responsibilty is to ensure their "services" are free-to-air to the whole community on the island of Ireland. After that must offer comes into play ie pay TV companies. Dont fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

Their services come October, 2012 will be RTE1, RTE2HD etc. NO RTE2 SD service "broadcast" even terrestrially to their primary objective the FTA public. There is no can about it as it will not be "broadcast" by RTE. I suggest you look up the definition of broadcast and retransmission (they are quoted above).

It may be re-encoded by pay TV stations who have requested a specific HD service but are not in a position to hold up their end of the must carry agreement. And thats it, isnt it. Sky and UPC have created enough confusion to an already messed up switchover process. No doubt more punters will be duped into HD subscriptions, despite the must carry rules demanding otherwise.

btw I am nearly sure you understood I was referring to "BBC HD" the channel, not BBC 1 HD.

Believe me I can play "platform friendly" tennis with the best of pay TV apologists.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

RTE2 will only be broadcast as a service in HD ...

... on Saorview.

There is no requirement anywhere that I know of that says an SD feed of RTÉ2 cannot be provided by RTÉ to Sky or UPC as they do now in conjunction with the HD feed, content remains the same the only difference being picture quality. Can you quote something specific that says RTÉ will cease providing the SD feed on Oct 24th? (no point quoting the Broadcasting Act again as that says nothing about how many feeds a broadcaster is restricted to for a particular channel or whether feeds are SD, HD or whatever).

The only thing happening on that date is RTÉNL, the transmission company, switching off the analogue TV network, no requirement for RTÉ, the broadcaster, to switchoff the SD feed at their end. Also by that date RTÉNL could well be an independent transmission company, separate from RTÉ and similar to the Sky and UPC networks transmitting the channels required by legislation and other additional channels they're contracted to carry.

Where is Saorview:Brian when we need him?

STB

The Cush wrote: »

... on Saorview.

There is no requirement anywhere that I know of that says an SD feed of RTÉ2 cannot be provided by RTÉ to Sky or UPC as they do now in conjunction with the HD feed, content remains the same the only difference being picture quality. Can you quote something specific that says RTÉ will cease providing the SD feed on Oct 24th? (no point quoting the Broadcasting Act again as that says nothing about how many feeds a broadcaster is restricted to for a particular channel or whether feeds are SD, HD or whatever).

The only thing happening on that date is RTÉNL, the transmission company, switching off the analogue TV network, no requirement for RTÉ, the broadcaster, to switchoff the SD feed at their end. Also by that date RTÉNL could well be an independent transmission company, separate from RTÉ and similar to the Sky and UPC networks transmitting the channels required by legislation and other additional channels they're contracted to carry.

Where is Saorview:Brian when we need him?

You are asking the wrong question.

Why would RTE provide a feed for a SD service wont doesn't exist anymore ?

The station is a specifically branded HD station. (see service definition). RTE can only offer services they broadcast (see broadcast definition).

It is ludicrous to even suggest that those who have requested a HD station and are meant to retransmit that HD station without altering it should then re-encode said HD branded station in parallel in order to circumvent their obligations of providing said requested at no extra subscription cost to their subscribers.

RTENL are not defined within the Act. RTE as an organisation are.

Why would services not provided FTA in the state be offered otherwise ?

Saorview Bryan was kidnapped by Aerial riggers, probably.:)

copacetic

STB wrote: »

I keep saying ASO will happen in October. The last hangout of RTE2 as you know it. In its place, digital.... The broadcast services RTE will provide are well defined within the Saorview suite! I doubt that you didnt understand that.

It might have escaped your attention but RTE's primary responsibilty is to ensure their "services" are free-to-air to the whole community on the island of Ireland. After that must offer comes into play ie pay TV companies. Dont fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

Their services come October, 2012 will be RTE1, RTE2HD etc. NO RTE2 SD service "broadcast" even terrestrially to their primary objective the FTA public. There is no can about it as it will not be "broadcast" by RTE. I suggest you look up the definition of broadcast and retransmission (they are quoted above).

It may be re-encoded by pay TV stations who have requested a specific HD service but are not in a position to hold up their end of the must carry agreement. And thats it, isnt it. Sky and UPC have created enough confusion to an already messed up switchover process. No doubt more punters will be duped into HD subscriptions, despite the must carry rules demanding otherwise.

btw I am nearly sure you understood I was referring to "BBC HD" the channel, not BBC 1 HD.

Believe me I can play "platform friendly" tennis with the best of pay TV apologists.

Heh, I give up.

Your hanging it all on the loose definition of broadcast used to define must offer services. Again, even if your are correct (which in my opinion you aren't) the definition of must offer services don't preclude other services being offered. You don't like the license holder argument, how about this one..

RTE is required by the act to maximise commercial revenue, cutting off 1.3 million or so viewers from the RTE2 service would cripple advertising revenue. Directly contravening a requirement of the act.

RTE can and will continue to provide an SD RTE2 feed to UPC and Sky. I'd imagine you are the only person who could possibly believe they won't.

STB wrote: »

RTE can only offer services they broadcast (see broadcast definition).

No, RTE must offer services they broadcast (according to you), they can offer whatever services they want.

STB

copacetic wrote: »

Heh, I give up.

Your hanging it all on the loose definition of broadcast used to define must offer services. Again, even if your are correct (which in my opinion you aren't) the definition of must offer services don't preclude other services being offered. You don't like the license holder argument, how about this one..

RTE is required by the act to maximise commercial revenue, cutting off 1.3 million or so viewers from the RTE2 service would cripple advertising revenue. Directly contravening a requirement of the act.

RTE can and will continue to provide an SD RTE2 feed to UPC and Sky. I'd imagine you are the only person who could possibly believe they won't.

Any services outside those RTE already have come ASO will have to be approved by the Minister for Communications (like RTE2HD was). Said services will be on Saorview and after that offered to pay companies.

No I don't like the licence arguement because it isnt true. Subscribing to a pay Tv company is a personal choice and a private agreement. You don't need to as RTE have the statutory responsibility that ALL are FTA to as much as the island as laid down by the Minister for Communications.

I do agree with the catch 22 situation that RTE are in as regards maximum viewership (as RTE2 is No 3 across all platforms from memory) but I do also believe branding a HD station with the view of gaining maximum revenue streams from advertising for Sports broadcast is also important and that it should be protected from watered down versions at any cost.

I also am of the personal view that given they they have chosen to drop a SD version of their station terrestrially (their 99% audience commitment FTA) which in turn means has meant that those with SD IDTVs and do not want to subscribe to pay operators also lost out. Given which I dont believe that there is any argument then that RTE should pander to those private pay companies like UPC and Sky any differently because said companies cant fulfill their must carry obligations of no additional costs to the end user.

And no, it is "must" offer. And "services" are those that they "broadcast".

I give up myself....

afatbollix

I could scan for all Irish channels on a UK sky box including RTE 2 HD but when the channel is selected it says this programme is not available.

STB

afatbollix wrote: »

I could scan for all Irish channels on a UK sky box including RTE 2 HD but when the channel is selected it says this programme is not available.

EDIT: Just saw UK. I am sure it will be locked down to Irish viewing cards.

But be aware that those with HD boxes (without HD subs) should part with no additional monies to receive RTE2HD. Its the law.

brian_bugle

Frequency 10.744 (also on 10.733) polarisation H symbol rate 22.0 FEC 5/6
Listed as channel "1270" not "RTE 2"

Widescreen

STB wrote: »

EDIT: Just saw UK. I am sure it will be locked down to Irish viewing cards.

But be aware that those with HD boxes (without HD subs) should part with no additional monies to receive RTE2HD. Its the law.

Why not? Don't we already have to pay sky a minimum of €25pm to get the irish channels, despite them telling us they are free bonus channels! Bet you will have to get the HD pack to get RTE2HD... Shades of ITV2HD et al

copacetic

Widescreen wrote: »

Why not? Don't we already have to pay sky a minimum of €25pm to get the irish channels, despite them telling us they are free bonus channels! Bet you will have to get the HD pack to get RTE2HD... Shades of ITV2HD et al

.

gtg60 wrote: »

Unlikely, it's working without the HD sub here.

A shrewd move by Sky indeed :rolleyes:

Karsini wrote: »

Nope, no HD sub here and it's working for me.

mad muffin

brian_bugle wrote: »

Frequency 10.744 (also on 10.733) polarisation H symbol rate 22.0 FEC 5/6
Listed as channel "1270" not "RTE 2"

So is this testing?

John mac

yup, news on now.

warlikedave

Anyone else getting jumpy performance with sound crackling on rte2hd via sky?

TiGeR KiNgS

warlikedave wrote: »

Anyone else getting jumpy performance with sound crackling on rte2hd via sky?

yep

zg3409

The thread discussing this is here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78564284

You need a valid ROI or NI subscription card to view the test.

Johnboy1951

brian_bugle wrote: »

Frequency 10.744 (also on 10.733) polarisation H symbol rate 22.0 FEC 5/6
Listed as channel "1270" not "RTE 2"

I see it there, but even an Irish FTV card does not allow them to be viewed; as zg3409 says you need a valid subscription card ... as with all the Irish channels.

That seems - to me - to be a failure in the terms under which the channels are offered to Sky.
Those channels should be FTV in Ireland.