Time to burn Greece?

Monty Burnz

Irish Aris wrote: »

The way you argue at some points is as if all 10 million of Greeks are to blame, which is not the case. To me it's just a generalisation that many use to prove that "all Greeks are bad and they deserve the worst". And I don't accept that.

I'm saying that Greek society caused the problem - obviously, you can't blame babies or whatever. But the culture of corruption seems to run through the society from top to bottom.

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm saying that Greek society caused the problem - obviously, you can't blame babies or whatever. But the culture of corruption seems to run through the society from top to bottom.

Hmmm. Reminds me of something, ah yes

Same as Ireland

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Hmmm. Reminds me of something, ah yes

Same as Ireland

Yes, but I'd say we are not quite in the same league.

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes, but I'd say we are not quite in the same league.

Kettle calling the pot black........... or blacker in this instance :cool:

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Kettle calling the pot black........... or blacker in this instance :cool:

I think you'll find I made that point on this thread a couple of dozen posts back...

Irish Aris

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Irish Aris, what are the chances of a military coup?

not very big now. . .

Monty Burnz

More populist nonsense from Greece's political 'leadership':

Political parties in Greece have criticised IMF head Christine Lagarde for suggesting that Greeks were avoiding paying taxes.

Socialist leader Evangelos Venizelos accused Ms Lagarde of "insulting the Greek people".

Left-wing leader Alexis Tsipras insisted: "Greek workers pay their taxes, which are unbearable."

In her interview with the UK's Guardian newspaper, Ms Lagarde suggested it was payback time for Greece.

She said she was more concerned about poverty-stricken children in sub-Saharan Africa than Greeks hit by the economic crisis.

Greece has promised to implement tough austerity measures in return for a multi-billion euro EU-IMF bailout. But the deal is under threat following inconclusive elections in May.

After thousands of angry messages were posted on her Facebook page, the head of the International Monetary Fund wrote that she was "very sympathetic to the Greek people and the challenges they are facing".

"That's why the IMF is supporting Greece in its endeavour to overcome the current crisis," she said.

Mr Venizelos told an election rally that he welcomed Ms Lagarde's Facebook message, but added: "Nobody can humiliate the Greek people during the crisis.

"I say this today addressing specifically Ms Lagarde... who with her stance insulted the Greek people," he said.

Alexis Tsipras's Syriza party opposes the tough conditions for the bailout
Mr Tsipras, whose Syriza party is one of the two main contenders for the 17 June election, said: "The last thing we seek in Greece is her sympathy. Greek workers pay their taxes, which are unbearable.

Tax evasion is an epidemic in Greece. Rather than face the fact, they trot out some rhetorical bullsh!t that they imagine the voters want to hear (and perhaps they do?). They need to grow up really soon.

swampgas

Monty Burnz wrote: »

More populist nonsense from Greece's political 'leadership':


Tax evasion is an epidemic in Greece. Rather than face the fact, they trot out some rhetorical bullsh!t that they imagine the voters want to hear (and perhaps they do?). They need to grow up really soon.

It's not surprising really - it's human nature to resent having to ask for help, and unfortunately those that do the helping often get little thanks for their trouble.

What was so insulting to the Greek people was being reminded that their country has an embarrassingly awful tax collection system. Christine Lagarde touched a raw nerve, I think, which may or may not have been deliberate.

There is an element of the same thing in Ireland - there is a resentment in some quarters towards the EU, and especially towards Germany, because of a feeling of shame at having to be bailed out by them.

Well, it's tough luck for the Greeks and tough luck for us - if we don't like being the poor relation we have only ourselves to blame for it.

KINGVictor

Monty Burnz wrote: »

More populist nonsense from Greece's political 'leadership':


Tax evasion is an epidemic in Greece. Rather than face the fact, they trot out some rhetorical bullsh!t that they imagine the voters want to hear (and perhaps they do?). They need to grow up really soon.

I disagree with you. What Largarde said in the Guardian interview was harsh,quite misleading and counter productive. She made an insane generalisation by depicting Greeks as serial tax evaders and an even worse extrapolation by stating that this is the reason why Greece is facing economic hardship.

Her comments were very incendiary and as the head of the IMF, she should have chosen her words more carefully. It is a fact that Greece has a huge problem with tax collection, pension age limits, competitveness and the lack of innovativeness. But we all know this because they are currently in the spotlight. Countries in southern Europe and some core EZ have similar problems.

She carelessly said:

"Do you know what? As far as Athens is concerned, I also think about all those people who are trying to escape tax all the time. All these people in Greece who are trying to escape tax." She says she thinks "equally" about Greeks deprived of public services and Greek citizens not paying their tax. "I think they should also help themselves collectively." Asked how, she replies: "By all paying their tax."


Very sloppy, condescending and simplistic! The problem in Greece is beyond tax payment! The country is being choked up by a senseless economic model. Like you would know, when an economy finds itself in a position like Greece or indeed Ireland and the IMF is forced to intervene, one of the basic element of reconstruction is the devaluation the nation's currency to increase demands for its exports and improve the level of competitiveness. No EZ country can afford of that option because they belong to a MONETARY UNION!!

Like I have said in previous exchanges with you, Europe either did not envisage these problems or they simply turned a blind eye. It is inconceivable that some parts of Europe are performing extraordinarily well in a recessionary environment while others are wallowing in stagnation, putting up their children for adoption, commiting suicide and rummaging bins to feed.

Greece has some serious institutional problems but so does Ireland, Italy, Spain, Cyprus, Portugal etc. Its counter-productive, haughty and pretentious to keep referring to Greece as an outlier and making ridiculous comments such as - " oh we are not as bad as them" OR " the only commonality between the Greeks and us is Feta chesse"- petty and ridiculous.

Monty Burnz

KINGVictor wrote: »

I disagree with you. What Largarde said in the Guardian interview was harsh,quite misleading and counter productive. She made an insane generalisation by depicting Greeks as serial tax evaders and an even worse extrapolation by stating that this is the reason why Greece is facing economic hardship.

You did read the Vanity Fair article I posted a while back, right?

Sponge Bob

KINGVictor wrote: »

She made an insane generalisation by depicting Greeks as serial tax evaders and an even worse extrapolation by stating that this is the reason why Greece is facing economic hardship.

Eh, that is true and therefore not "insane" as you put it. The entire Greek problem is a result of borrowing in the knowledge that the tax base to service those debts was non existent. Mainly because of endemic corruption and incompetence.

You OBVIOUSLY haven't read the thread.

IN Greece in 2010 or so

25,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 160,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

In Ireland in 2006 ..I know it dropped a lot since.


180,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 413,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

Consequently the Greeks were reduced to searching for swimming pools on Google Earth and taxing them as a proxy for undeclared income.

starlit

High time but looks like Ireland could be following in its footsteps before long!

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Eh, that is true and therefore not "insane" as you put it. The entire Greek problem is a result of borrowing in the knowledge that the tax base to service those debts was non existent. Mainly because of endemic corruption and incompetence.

You OBVIOUSLY haven't read the thread.

IN Greece in 2010 or so

25,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 160,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

In Ireland in 2006 ..I know it dropped a lot since.


180,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 413,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks


Consequently the Greeks were reduced to searching for swimming pools on Google Earth and taxing them as a proxy for undeclared income.

wow didnt know this, and they have twice the population we have! Their tax base must be a fraction of the size it should be!

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

wow didnt know this, and they have twice the population we have! Their tax base must be a fraction of the size it should be!

Hey now, stop insulting the Greek people

Wibbs

Indeed, but in fairness their successive governments did feck all to curb such a dodgy tax evasion culture. Ireland is considered pretty good on that front, but I don't doubt for a minute that if it wasn't many many Irish people wouldn't be so quick to ante up. If tomorrow it was announced that Gardai would stop spot checks for car tax, I'd guarantee the tax take would drop off. If it continued and it became a given in the culture the tax take would likely plummet. Human nature being what it is and all that. Governments and laws among other things should act as a brake against human nature. The Greek people for a very long time had far fewer brakes.

Monty Burnz

Wibbs wrote: »

The Greek people for a very long time had far fewer brakes.

At the same time, the Greek people voted in the very people who facilitated this virtually voluntary tax system.

beeftotheheels

Monty Burnz wrote: »

At the same time, the Greek people voted in the very people who facilitated this virtually voluntary tax system.

I think we need also to put her comments in context. At election time it is traditional in Greece for the tax collectors to ease off (presumably under the instruction of the incumbent Government).

This extended election period means that by the time Greece has a Government they will be further behind on their tax collection for the year to date, and her comments were made as these numbers were being released.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_21/05/2012_443145

Monty Burnz

beeftotheheels wrote: »

I think we need also to put her comments in context. At election time it is traditional in Greece for the tax collectors to ease off (presumably under the instruction of the incumbent Government).

Indeed, the practice of taking taxpayers 'off the streets' is remarked upon in the Vanity Fair article. Astonishing stuff.

Peanut

Caretaker government says they will be collecting tax

Finance Minister Giorgios Zanias ... Greece can’t allow any relaxation of tax-collection efforts during the country’s pre-election period, a time when revenue traditionally drops, he said.

Although, "Public revenue dropped 15 percent in the first 10 days of May compared with the same period of 2011", there isn't an indication as to how much, if any, of this is due to a fall-off in enforcement.

beeftotheheels

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d4d17e82-aa57-11e1-899d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1w3n6SqoG

Now major insurers are refusing to insure import shipments to Greece. While the people of Greece go about having their democratic say in things, the wheels of commerce turn to continue making it more, and more difficult, for the Greek situation to be rescued.

A timely reminder that democratic choices (including the choice to defer making a decision) have commercial consequences.

AVN_1

Tora Bora wrote: »

I get confused when I hear the Greeks, cooked the books, and lied their way into the Euro club.
Surely, there should have been elegibility rules, which there was.
And surely, there should have been some sort of independent verification by the ECB, of the books of all would be members, BEFORE, granting full membership status.
Seems like more ineptitude on behalf of the Eurocrats, if you ask me.

German masters pushed the Greeks to cook the books

Monty Burnz

AVN_1 wrote: »

German masters pushed the Greeks to cook the books

Poppycock.

McDave

AVN_1 wrote: »

German masters pushed the Greeks to cook the books

You're joking, right?

Damian_ir

I don't think so.


Again, in regards to the special defense needs of Greece, i would like to post that in a few days French president will have a meeting with Greek politicians about new French-maiden Fremm frigates deal !!



Aegean sea and eastern mediterrenean sea smells oil and gas and this is not irrelevant to these news.

On top of that, since for the moment there is a consumables-parts problem with 3rd generation fighters, Greece decided to keep for another 3 years the "Short Little Ugly F....s "(a.k.a A-7H Corsair II) ... fighter-bombers . In the same time tries to find in the international market additional number of used French-maiden Mirage 2000-5 whilst Turkey waits for collecting 100 new state of the art F-35 lightning II and plans in a few years to build a Turkish-maiden ... air-carrier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwpeSFNTAlg

Course 090

No matter how many people will commit suicide due to financial crisis(4.000 people at the moment), no matter what year it is, people at this part of Europe will know very well to use weapons. This is our fate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vLO2ekm4Bk

Damian_ir

My previous post will display its essence as time progress, while Turkish riot escalates.

There are at least 3 Turkeyes inside Turkey. One of them is Turkey of the generals that will try to export Turkey's crisis to the Aegean sea... or to Cyprus.

Damian_ir

On top of that, an other phenomenon in regards to the economic crisis in Greece:

Most of the boats get into the country again via Turkey.


Footage in English

Greece has become the last 15 years a people-warehouse(As a result of the Dublin treaty). These poople has one purpose and that is to move to the western and northern European countries to start working and start over their life.