Time to burn Greece?

Mr.Micro

Bank of England injects another £50bn into UK economy

Maura74 wrote: »

We are going to be fed the Olympics from now on and also the queens jubilee that should keep the public sweet for a while.:(


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16963116

The UK treasury put £45 billion to save The Royal Bank of Scotland and most of all that has been used up writing off its bad debts/loans and restructuring. How does it say thank you.....it gives the top guy a million pounds bonus, tax payers money, which he eventually was forced to refuse. Banks have no gratitude.

djpbarry

ART6 wrote: »

You people in the elite financial and political circles might have some shocks coming! The people didn't create that, in Greece or anywhere else. You did!

The people of Greece had no part in creating the current situation in Greece? Really? Can you say that with a straight face?

Damian_ir

Benefits of the European Union for the citizens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWEVNGcwInE

Death of Democracy in Greece of 2012

Hundrends of these motorcycles, were used last night by police to send people home.

Tons of chemicals and police-bombs were launched by them.

Thousand of people were trying to reach syntagma(constitution) square to join the rest of the people who were protesting there.

They never managed to get there !

AlekSmart

Damian_ir wrote: »

Benefits of the European Union for the citizens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWEVNGcwInE

Death of Democracy in Greece of 2012

Hundrends of these motorcycles, were used last night by police to send people home.

Tons of chemicals and police-bombs were launched by them.

Thousand of people were trying to reach syntagma(constitution) square to join the rest of the people who were protesting there.

They never managed to get there !

One of the benefits of the EU is an obviously well equipped Police Force,even if their tactics are a bit suspect.

I'm not so certain Greek Democracy is even being tickled here,as such demonstrations,often violent in nature have in the past been a feature of the Greek socio-political environment.

It's not so much a case of "Beware the Greeks who come bearing gifts" but one of "Beware the Greeks who come to repossess the gifts they could'nt afford".

However,unless the various Irish anarchist movements managed to get a few cheap flights in order to do a bit of fact-finding,I'd not be expecting any such explosions along Grafton St as yet.......too damn damp and cold for one,and a population not so much given to crockery throwing.

Mind you,if anybody here thinks the various Agencies tasked with the Maintenance of Good Order and Discipline in Ireland have not been preparing for similar,then think again.

Another odd aspect is how the Greek Polis,facing a dollop of their own Pay and Pension cuts are managing to maintain their support of the "System".....Odd that

McDave

Damian_ir wrote: »

Benefits of the European Union for the citizens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWEVNGcwInE

Death of Democracy in Greece of 2012

Hundrends of these motorcycles, were used last night by police to send people home.

Tons of chemicals and police-bombs were launched by them.

Thousand of people were trying to reach syntagma(constitution) square to join the rest of the people who were protesting there.

They never managed to get there !

The average Greek must feel utterly humiliated at this stage. But it was the average Greek that elected their goofy politicians and who turned a blind eye to tax dodging and civil service jobs for the boys and girls.

If the truth is to be acknowledged, the Greeks haven't needed the EU to launch coups. In fact they were hoping that joining the EC would draw a line under their political instability. However, in the intervening decades they have done little to construct a modern functioning state. And now they're paying the price.

It's simply not the EU's job to sort out Greece's problems. The EU/EZ can provide a template. But the Greeks themselves have to do the heavy lifting. Maybe the agreement on the second bailout might provide Greece with the push it needs. Let's hope they can finally see sense. But the Greeks should never have let it come to this in the first place.

Icepick

The best way to protest against austerity is by burning small businesses, eh.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Another odd aspect is how the Greek Polis,facing a dollop of their own Pay and Pension cuts are managing to maintain their support of the "System".....Odd that

That's not odd. They won't get anything without a bailout.

Irish Aris

Sign of the times.
I talked to friends back home, the disaster in the center of Athens is huge. And it was obvious that they were heading there from early afternoon. There were many people that just want there to burn and destroy (and some of them are police provocateurs).

Anyway, I had a look at the new measures that will go through and one of the points are a further 20-30% cut on wages and pensions. This means that hundreds of thousands of people will have to survive on 450-700 euro per month. There will be no money to go around and the market will freeze. Why don't they just call it off and defualt now? The chances to avoid it anyway, seems very narrow now. . .

Maura74

Irish Aris wrote: »

Sign of the times.
I talked to friends back home, the disaster in the center of Athens is huge. And it was obvious that they were heading there from early afternoon. There were many people that just want there to burn and destroy (and some of them are police provocateurs).

Anyway, I had a look at the new measures that will go through and one of the points are a further 20-30% cut on wages and pensions. This means that hundreds of thousands of people will have to survive on 450-700 euro per month. There will be no money to go around and the market will freeze. Why don't they just call it off and defualt now? The chances to avoid it anyway, seems very narrow now. . .

450-700 eruos a month is a lot of money people should no problems surviving that amount of money.

AlekSmart

Maura74 wrote: »

450-700 eruos a month is a lot of money people should no problems surviving that amount of money.

Indeed Maura74.......unless they did'nt know what a Tracker was,and decided to get on the Property Ladder before the neighbours or they still have a few payments left on the oul Cayenne......

http://autos.sympatico.ca/weird-automotive-news/10098/greece-should-not-have-this-many-porsches

I'm sure if any Irish entreprenure were to invest in a few,the ex Grecian Porsche Cayenne might still be worth a few bob here ?

lmimmfn

Maura74 wrote: »

450-700 eruos a month is a lot of money people should no problems surviving that amount of money.

2.50euro or 3.88euro an hour for working on average a 180hour month when the prices are basically the same as in ireland for shopping/food/drink/taxis/public transport, petrol is even more expensive than ireland? how the hell can you live on just over 100euro a week, pay for mortgage, transport to/from work, lunch, shopping and bills on that? Its not like being on the dole where you dont incur most of those costs and have the possibility of rent allowance etc.

Lets not forget that most of the austerity measures impact the private sector mainly while the public sector still enjoys early retirement possibilities along with nice pensions and job security.

Maura74

lmimmfn wrote: »

2.50euro or 3.88euro an hour for working on average a 180hour month when the prices are basically the same as in ireland for shopping/food/drink/taxis/public transport, petrol is even more expensive than ireland? how the hell can you live on just over 100euro a week, pay for mortgage, transport to/from work, lunch, shopping and bills on that? Its not like being on the dole where you dont incur most of those costs and have the possibility of rent allowance etc.

Lets not forget that most of the austerity measures impact the private sector mainly while the public sector still enjoys early retirement possibilities along with nice pensions and job security.

On reflection looking at your figures it is not enough it should read 450 a week that would be more like it, especially parents with young family.
Is there no extra help with mortgages or rents, not sure if Greece would need help with heating, but maybe with other priority outgoings.

I still say that the people at the top of the pecking order should have more cuts first and then for the cuts to trickle down to the bottom, then would not be so horrible for the people at the bottom of the pecking order.

meglome

lmimmfn wrote: »

2.50euro or 3.88euro an hour for working on average a 180hour month when the prices are basically the same as in ireland for shopping/food/drink/taxis/public transport, petrol is even more expensive than ireland? how the hell can you live on just over 100euro a week, pay for mortgage, transport to/from work, lunch, shopping and bills on that? Its not like being on the dole where you dont incur most of those costs and have the possibility of rent allowance etc.

Where are you getting the figures from?

djpbarry

lmimmfn wrote: »

2.50euro or 3.88euro an hour for working on average a 180hour month when the prices are basically the same as in ireland for shopping/food/drink/taxis/public transport, petrol is even more expensive than ireland?

If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the last few years, it’s to take any figures emerging from Greece with a hefty dose of salty scepticism.

lmimmfn wrote: »

Lets not forget that most of the austerity measures impact the private sector mainly...

Greece has a private sector?

Tazz T

When I lived there most of the people I knew were on €1 a hour. Having said that none of them paid tax.

The only thing that can save Greece from complete economic and social collapse is a default. Another bailout will just stretch things out. But I bet the politicians make an agreement at the last minute. That's their way.

With a default they have no choice but to put their house in order.

Damian_ir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsBjUDZ2xsI

atila

The recent performance of Portugeese debt suggests that there is a firewall between Greece on the one hand and other debt pressured Eurozone countries.

The conditions are lining up to make it the obvious course of action to see Greece default. The political calculus is very interesting and there can be no doubt that this 325M is being used as some sort of smokescreen for other agendas. No way on earth would the Eurozone risk financial shockwaves for the sake of 325M unless there were bigger issues at stake.

McDave

atila wrote: »

The recent performance of Portugeese debt suggests that there is a firewall between Greece on the one hand and other debt pressured Eurozone countries.

The conditions are lining up to make it the obvious course of action to see Greece default. The political calculus is very interesting and there can be no doubt that this 325M is being used as some sort of smokescreen for other agendas. No way on earth would the Eurozone risk financial shockwaves for the sake of 325M unless there were bigger issues at stake.

I think you may be right.

The EZ is hanging tough alright. €325m is small fry in the grander scheme of things. The fact that the Greeks would attempt to cavil over it is to me indicative of their underlying lack of seriousness.

I don't think the Greeks were thinking that the troika would come back at them so hard. Indeed by giving the EZ such grounds to doubt Greek intent, the delay has given the EZ some space to consider actually cutting Greece loose.

Sponge Bob

The last €325m mainly came from the military budget and they are afraid of their military for rather well founded reasons given their dismal record for interfering in politics and the death toll in the post WW2 Civil War alone.

The problem is collectibility.

IN Greece in 2010 or so

25,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 160,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

In Ireland in 2006 ..I know it dropped a lot since.


180,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 413,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

Consequently the Greeks were reduced to searching for swimming pools on Google Earth and taxing them as a proxy for undeclared income. There is a story doing the rounds about Porsche Cayennes, complete BS that one.

However when they looked.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,709703,00.html

Tracking Down Swimming Pools

His staff have become very creative when it comes to tracking down tax offenders: They use police helicopters to fly over Athens' affluent suburbs and make films of homes owned by doctors, lawyers and businesspeople. They use satellite pictures by Google Earth to locate country villas, swimming pools and properties. And these tactics have revealed that the suburbs didn't have 324 swimming pools, as was reported, but rather 16,974.

Tax fraud investigators spent a number of weeks on nightclub parking lots in Athens and noted down the registration numbers of luxury sedans. Their investigation revealed that approximately 6,000 car owners have vehicles worth €100,000, but only reported to the tax authorities that they have an annual income of €10,000.

Sand

The ECB has been trying to force fiscal transfers (and thus political union) over the past few years, and the core having been attemtping to avoid any fiscal entanglement with the periphery. The game plan of allowing Greece to default and sweeping up the mess was dismissed in 2010, but as the "Extend and pretend" gameplan has been proven to lack either measurable objective success or increasingly political support, it has come back to the fore.

Default is inevitable for Greece. It simply cannot grow fast enough. The periphery do not want the core meddling in their internal affairs. The core does not want the hassle of meddling in the peripheries internal affairs.

The Greeks might get another bit of cash this week to stagger on in a daze for another few weeks or months but its going to default. It should have been recognised and dealt with upfront - it wasnt, and instead the problem was made worse and worse by the extend and pretend plan.

When Greece defaults it will be interesting to see if Greeces economic problems will then be explained by the default, rather than the default being explained by Greek economic collapse.

There is a lesson here for Ireland - our "manageable" debt load is also being put together under the guidance of the same brain trust that took the Greek problem and turned it into a global problem.

jank

What I have been hearing and reading about this situation is that the EU want Greece out of the euro and to default along with it. All this is just a side show to let the world "think" that they are doing the best they can to help Greece. It also gives the ECB a chance to shore up banks with liquidity that will be affected as a result of a default. It just remains to be seen has the market already priced in this default and by how much.

In a way Greece is done, we need to be looking over our shoulder though!

Damian_ir

Turkey will buy 100 stealth f-35 lightening II fighters.

http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=239067

Do you think that the greeks are still paranoid about national security ?

These fighters are meant to be used to help Turkey to gain power for winning half of the Aegean sea where Greece's wealth is ...

Καστελόριζο(Kastelorizo) or Μεγίστη (Megisti) is a tiny small island that the Turks violate its air-space constantly(f-16s and f-4 phantom II terminators) and is a key-island of the Greek borders acording to the international law in regards of the sea borders. They will try to invade to this or an other island of eastern Greece in order to drill the gas-oil of the sea-ground that is soaking with greek blood.



This is why Greece spents much money on military structures and military weapons.

Video in Turkish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZSJEn2MYuE

murphaph

Maybe Greece can't actually afford to defend such a disperse group of islands. I certainly am not comfortable that so much EU taxpayers' money is going on the Greek military. If Turkey invades Greece (economic suicide for Turkey-an EU wide trade embargo would cripple them), the EU should step in, but should not fund the Greek military directly.

Greece, like Ireland, can't afford its military it would seem. The difference is that at least in Ireland, we accept it and have consequently tiny armed forces.

If Greeks want to spend their own money on a strong military then fine, but their not spending their own money right now.

srsly78

Turkey has a population over 6 times that of Greece, and a much bigger (and thriving economy). So of course they appear threatening. It would be like Ireland trying to stop a British invasion (not possible, but the ensuing guerilla war would be hell).

And just like Ireland vs UK, Greece vs Turkey is not gonna happen. Turkey would have the smackdown laid on them so fast by the rest of Nato! How good will all that american gear be without american support? Not very...

So Damian, stop trying to blame other countries for Greece's problems. You can't blame ze Germanz, or ze Turks. It's your own fault for being so corrupt as a nation that you make the Irish look like paragons of prudence.

The solution is to pay your own damn taxes and stop living off ours.

djpbarry

Damian_ir wrote: »

They will try to invade to this or an other island of eastern Greece...

Apart from anything else, Turkey wants into the EU. Invading an EU state is hardly going to look good on their application.

Damian_ir

djpbarry wrote: »

Apart from anything else, Turkey wants into the EU. Invading an EU state is hardly going to look good on their application.

Do you think (1 in a million) that Berlin and Paris will open the door of EU to ... Turkey(population ... ) ?

Most of the Turks don't believe it, that is why Turkey plays the new-othoman card and the natural resources card. In many cases Turkey was so close with Tehran...

In regards to the new-othoman card of Turkey, i have to advise you to search in the net about the new Turkish Naval Base in Albania(Adriatic Sea-Northwest greek borders) and about the new Turkish Naval Base in Libya(southwest greek borders).

I shall not talk about east because there ... i can describe untill next year.

djpbarry

Damian_ir wrote: »

Do you think (1 in a million) that Berlin and Paris will open the door of EU to ... Turkey(population ... ) ?

Not the point - Turkey is officially recognised as a candidate country by the EU, along with Iceland, Macedonia and Montenegro. There is absolutely no way Turkey is going to jeopardise this by invading Greece. It's just completely ridiculous.

srsly78

Nevermind what happens when a Nato member state gets attacked (even by another member).

Icepick

There is no way Turkey is invading Greece. Among other things, 60% of Turkish exports go to the EU, as well as billions of FDI flowing both ways.

Damian_ir is spreading paranoia, which the army uses to justify its bloated budget and the politicians use to scare and rally voters.

BTW, your link says that the purchase of fighters was actually put on hold.

Damian_ir

Icepick wrote: »

BTW, your link says that the purchase of fighters was actually put on hold.

Sorry about that. I will post an other more recent in couple of days.




I hope i don't see a red card by posting the following, as it is a simple way to explain to other people around the world about the situation in Greece and the dangerous future.

In a few cases i am 100% sure that you will disagree.

Eitherway, this is an opinion of an individual pesonality of Greece and shows you what is his view about life in Greece an it's future.

Sorry in advance for the huge .... mesage .



<mod snip>

MY EYES!!!!

Please leave the epic rage comics for the Cool Pics and Vids forum, the Politics Cafe, or your blog. This is not the place.

Lantus

we wont need to burn greece. The people are already unsettled and will do the job for us. Greece could be the first modern country in our history to have it's own revolution.