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Time to burn Greece?
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BTW, your link says that the purchase of fighters was actually put on hold.
There you are.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153077#.T0hIyl86K00
Source is from a country that is in our neighbourhood .0 -
In my case, no sale I'm afraid.Sorry about that. I will post an other more recent in couple of days.
I hope i don't see a red card by posting the following, as it is a simple way to explain to other people around the world about the situation in Greece and the dangerous future.
In a few cases i am 100% sure that you will disagree.
Eitherway, this is an opinion of an individual pesonality of Greece and shows you what is his view about life in Greece an it's future.
Greece has been so far off the pace for so long. It's economy is a crock. Its administrative system is not fit for purpose. It's political system seems broken practically beyond repair.
The problems are awful, but they're essentially Greece's to solve. Despite that and all the emotive stuff about banks, the EZ is orchestrating a writedown for private bondholders that will go a significant distance in reducing Greece's burden. The troika is (necessarily) imposing a programme of debt reduction to get Greek debt down out of the stratosphere. Funny how Greece hasn't been able to deal with any of these problems in their own right.
As for Greek voters being lied too, I'm sure plenty of them know exactly what they were doing when they voted for PASOK public service jobs for the boys. It's too much to expect people to believe that Greek voters are helpless innocents as concerns the debacle their country has become.0 -
Indeed. It's no different from Ireland. A majority of voters gave FF first preferences and enough transfers to ensure they continued to get re-elected while they were doing a (scaled down) version of what successive Greek governments were doing.As for Greek voters being lied too, I'm sure plenty of them know exactly what they were doing when they voted for PASOK public service jobs for the boys. It's too much to expect people to believe that Greek voters are helpless innocents as concerns the debacle their country has become.
People have a vote and CAN change how politics works. In a democracy, even a non-ideal one (none are ideal), the people (as a whole, not talking about individuals) cannot be absolved of the blame for what their elected government does, especially when the people re-elect the same government, knowing that government's policies.
In a dictatorship where people cannot vote and cannot enter politics themselves and live under an iron fist, then they are not responsible. Greek and Irish people who try to claim that "it was all the government's fault, they made us do it" is a real kick in the teeth to people who actually live under real dictatorships where they genuinely can't have any influence on what direction their country takes.
The Irish, like the Greeks, were all too happy to elect parties that increased public sector jobs and pay, increased welfare, decreased taxes and never questioned where the money was coming from, or obviously didn't question hard enough.0 -
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The Irish, like the Greeks, were all too happy to elect parties that increased public sector jobs and pay, increased welfare, decreased taxes and never questioned where the money was coming from, or obviously didn't question hard enough.
But it's the actual system that's broken, isn't it?
Is there any parliamentary democracy like ours, where the system actually functions correctly?
Those which seem to function correctly are not so similar e.g. Germany
The closest to us is the British system and they made the same mistakes through Labour, they would be in the same mess only that they can try to inflate their way out of debt, driving their own citizens into penury.
That's as much a pattern over there as Fianna Fail extinguishing our economy every generation.
Had they been in the Eurozone, they would have collapsed it.
Based on what I've read, the story in Greece is very similar to Spain, to Ireland and to a lesser extent, to the UK, to Italy.
What separates countries like Germany/Sweden from countries like Ireland/UK/Spain so dramatically?0 -
The mentality of the people is different tbh. Our PRSTV system has a lot to answer for, but that system can be changed. If enough people wanted it changed, it would be changed.Dannyboy83 wrote: »What separates countries like Germany/Sweden from countries like Ireland/UK/Spain so dramatically?
@Sand: so far nothing has changed really. Until people engage with politics and (heaven forbid) write the odd letter to a TD concerning electoral reform, nothing will change. Engaging in politics is much more than merely voting. Politicians aren't mind readers, and a chat at the doorstep once every 4 or 5 years doesn't cut it. People need to say to their TDs "hey, I'm not happy about PRSTV (or whatever). I'd like x, y or z instead".
People (not you) rant and rave about marching here, there and everywhere, but don't start with simply communicating their wishes to their TDs.0 -
I wouldn't really agree with that. British politics is quite different to Irish politics. And apart from anything else, the UK does not use proportional representation. Germany does.Dannyboy83 wrote: »Those which seem to function correctly are not so similar e.g. Germany
The closest to us is the British system...
In Ireland's case, I don't think the problem is the system. The problem is how that system is put into practice.
I think you're grossly over-simplifying things. While you could absolutely say that the book-keeping of recent governments in those countries has been poor (to say the least), on a societal level, Ireland, the UK and Greece (for example) are quite different. Greece is (it seems) rabidly left-wing, the UK has a sizeable right-wing extremist element, while Ireland is decidedly centrist.Dannyboy83 wrote: »Based on what I've read, the story in Greece is very similar to Spain, to Ireland and to a lesser extent, to the UK, to Italy.
I really doubt that the average voter in Ireland could explain the PRSTV system.People need to say to their TDs "hey, I'm not happy about PRSTV (or whatever). I'd like x, y or z instead".0 -
I think you're grossly over-simplifying things. While you could absolutely say that the book-keeping of recent governments in those countries has been poor (to say the least), on a societal level, Ireland, the UK and Greece (for example) are quite different. Greece is (it seems) rabidly left-wing, the UK has a sizeable right-wing extremist element, while Ireland is decidedly centrist.
What I mean was that many of the symptoms were the same.
Pasok is the Greek equivalent of Fianna Fail.
"I'm Pasok, I'd prefer to die than vote another one"!
Greece have their own brand of civil war politics.
I cannot remember the Spanish equivalents but the same seems to apply.
I've read Spanish accounts of the crisis, and the only thing you would need to change would be the names of the political parties and you could be talking about Ireland.
Property bubbles, heavy borrowing, tax evasion etc.
Perhaps I'm wrong about that, it seems to be the case tho.
Do you think the mentality creates the system or the system creates the mentality?
For example, there is a funny section in "Inside the Third Rech" by Albert Speer, Pg 255On the other hand, the air raids had shown tha t life could continue on an orderly basis in the severely affected cities. Tax revenues for instance went on being paid even after bombs falling on Treasury offices had destroyed the documents. Taking my cue directly from the principle of seH-responsibility in industry, I formulated a program which would substitute trust for distrust toward the populace and allow us to t r im (our supervisory and administrative agencies, which alone employed nearly three million persons. We considered ways in which the taxpayers could be made responsible for their own declarations, or the feasibility of not reassessing liability a t all, or for withholding taxes from the payrolls. Given the billions being spent on the war every month, Goebbels and I argued, what did i t matter i f a few hundred millions were lost to the government due to the dishonesty of some individuals.
Contrast that with modern day Greece, lolhttp://www.cnbc.com/id/46312376/Greece_Keeps_Promising_Reform_but_Few_Believe_It
The shadow economy still accounts for more than a quarter of the 220-billion-euro official output — the highest proportion in the euro zone. Annual tax evasion stands at 40 billion to 45 billion euros, said Nikos Lekkas, the number two official in Greece's Financial and Economic Crime unit.I really doubt that the average voter in Ireland could explain the PRSTV system.
I agree.
In my experience, most people know absolutely nothing about politics.
Those who do know something generally tend to take a line they are fed, such as public servants taking a union line and so on.
But I imagine it's the same in Germany?
Based on my experiences, it is.
So what causes the difference?
People in Sweden and Germany pay for more tax than in Ireland and Greece, and they wilfully pay it.
I've written about my opinion on Sweden vs Ireland before here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75598314&postcount=210 -
Well written, mentality, such as culture and values, are more important than the actual democratic system put in place.
A system is only as good the people that operate it and operate in it. If too many are lazy, incompetent, unknowledgeable, greedy or malicious the system will not function well. The checks and balances will not function.
It's very hard for the average individual to put up their hand and admit their ignorance of economics or politics or how things happened.0 -
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In regards to the military aspect of Greece's defence needs , there is a new update .
Recently Turkish general , one of the heads of the the Turkish forces, announced that they are going to construct a small aircarrier similar to the ones that Italy and Spain posses , that supports F-35s and their new domestic assault choppers . They need it in order to support their demands against Greece's rights for oil drilling in the Aegean Sea.
These are a few photographs that was recently taken during Turkish army operations against Kurds rebels-terorists (depends of the angle that you come across the Kurdistan Issue).
I believe it shows everyone what are the dangerous situations that Greece has to put up with in case of a Turkish invasion, like the one in Cyprus of 1974.
MAJOR WARNING BEFORE YOU CLICK HERE. EXTREMELY BAD SIGHT . Yet it is a common sight for people that lives and learns his fate in the Balcans.
http://www.onalert.gr/default.php?pname=Article&catid=2&art_id=12940
Fortunately Cyprus which also posses oil areas inside its sea-borders found a way to support its interests(against Turkey) by accepting an alliance with Israel . Of course Turkey posses one of the most ambitious weapons industry in the world and everyone in the southeastern Europe and middle east is aware of that. Balance on that sector constantly changes.
ps:
While you enter in one of Trinity College's library rooms, you see tens head-statues of famous historical personalities among thousands of books.
One of these statues(I believe it is first or second when you enter that room) shows a man with a wide(platy) forehead. He once said ...
Every war(violent or economic) is contacted because of money .
Plato0 -
Damian_ir, that's not really relevant to the thread.
moderately,
Scofflaw0 -
Well written, mentality, such as culture and values, are more important than the actual democratic system put in place.
A system is only as good the people that operate it and operate in it. If too many are lazy, incompetent, unknowledgeable, greedy or malicious the system will not function well. The checks and balances will not function.
It's very hard for the average individual to put up their hand and admit their ignorance of economics or politics or how things happened.
I keep seeing people demanding more direct democracy, Swiss style. I keep trying to point out it works in Switzerland because of the Swiss. The Swiss who just voted to not have an extra two weeks holidays each year.0 -
@Sand: so far nothing has changed really. Until people engage with politics and (heaven forbid) write the odd letter to a TD concerning electoral reform, nothing will change. Engaging in politics is much more than merely voting. Politicians aren't mind readers, and a chat at the doorstep once every 4 or 5 years doesn't cut it. People need to say to their TDs "hey, I'm not happy about PRSTV (or whatever). I'd like x, y or z instead".
People (not you) rant and rave about marching here, there and everywhere, but don't start with simply communicating their wishes to their TDs.
Well (to use a recent Boards example), take the recent campaign against Sean Sherlock's new internet legislation. People engaged, wrote their TDs and so on - only to be fobbed off with generic auto-replies (and poorly written, and spelled, ones at that!) and in the end he signed it through anyway.
The problem is politicians in this country face no personal consequences, regardless of what they do. If they misbehave they get a slap on the wrist (if even that), and sure you can say "well you can choose not to vote for them at the next election" but how well does THAT work either?
Take FF - sure they got decimated but most of the top echelon took their fat pensions that they will get now and for the rest of their lives (20-40 years maybe?) despite what happened to the country under their watch! Sure Bertie has made a nice retirement out of lecturing others on how to replicate the Irish Miracle that was the Celtic Tiger years :rolleyes:
Why WOULD they do anything beyond serving their own interests? And who's going to change that? - it'd be like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas.
"Democracy" (at least the Irish version) just doesn't work!0 -
Kaiser2000 wrote: »Well (to use a recent Boards example), take the recent campaign against Sean Sherlock's new internet legislation. People engaged, wrote their TDs and so on - only to be fobbed off with generic auto-replies (and poorly written, and spelled, ones at that!) and in the end he signed it through anyway.
The problem is politicians in this country face no personal consequences, regardless of what they do. If they misbehave they get a slap on the wrist (if even that), and sure you can say "well you can choose not to vote for them at the next election" but how well does THAT work either?
Take FF - sure they got decimated but most of the top echelon took their fat pensions that they will get now and for the rest of their lives (20-40 years maybe?) despite what happened to the country under their watch! Sure Bertie has made a nice retirement out of lecturing others on how to replicate the Irish Miracle that was the Celtic Tiger years :rolleyes:
Why WOULD they do anything beyond serving their own interests? And who's going to change that? - it'd be like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas.
"Democracy" (at least the Irish version) just doesn't work!
I agree with every word. This could have been a conversation between two mates in a cafe or a bar in Greece, in regards to the puppets of Athens.0 -
If people really were "enraged", I think they would have done more than send emails.Kaiser2000 wrote: »Well (to use a recent Boards example), take the recent campaign against Sean Sherlock's new internet legislation. People engaged, wrote their TDs and so on - only to be fobbed off with generic auto-replies (and poorly written, and spelled, ones at that!) and in the end he signed it through anyway.
The electorate. If people keep voting in the likes of Lowry, there is no incentive for TD's to clean up their act. Accountability won't come about until the electorate demands it.Kaiser2000 wrote: »Why WOULD they do anything beyond serving their own interests? And who's going to change that?0 -
(NOT the other way around)
http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/54679Iran has blocked oil sales to two Greek companies, Hellenic Petroleum (Elpe) and Motor Oil Hellas, after they failed to make payments, Iranian state television reported on Thursday.
English-language Press TV reported that the two companies, the country's largest refineries, were barred from purchasing Iranian crude after they defaulted on their orders
I think Greece was Irans largest customer in Europe.0 -
Should we expect the Italians to retake Abysinnia any time soon? Or should we in the RoI be fearful of the bould Brits retaking their former possession? :eek:
Turkey has no intention of invading any EU member state.
ever heard of gradual colonising? *sniff*
Peanut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo_rasher View Post
Who's ruling Tur right now? But an Islamicist party!
Peanut: "Who wouldda thunk it !
I can still buy alcohol at 2am on a Saturday night in Istanbul without restriction.
If this does change drastically I may get back to you."
Its not so long ago since Turkey had S E C U L A R governments. Shows what little Peanut knows on this topic0 -
Voodoo_rasher wrote:Peanut wrote:Voodoo_rasher wrote:Who's ruling Tur right now? But an Islamicist party!
Who wouldda thunk it !
I can still buy alcohol at 2am on a Saturday night in Istanbul without restriction.
If this does change drastically I may get back to you."
Its not so long ago since Turkey had S E C U L A R governments. Shows what little Peanut knows on this topic
Sorry... don't see your point? The government is not the State.
If the State does turn significantly Islamist I could agree with you. (Not that Ireland or Greece are exactly models of secular states either..)
Anyway what is the ultimate point of all this FUD?
Should Ireland be lobbying the Troika more for a loan of a few billion to prevent the British invading the RoI?
They did it in the past right, why shouldn't they try again? Gradual colonisation and all that...0 -
Interestingly, Greece has managed to issue new, very short term bonds just last month. Whilst not in itself significant, it does call in to question the often posed view that investors would refuse to ever invest in a sovereign that had previously defaulted on its bonds. Which was similar to the view that investors would refuse to ever invest in Icelandic sovereign bonds if they didn't cover all their banks debts.
As always, investors will invest if they think the risk and the return aren't out of alignment.0 -
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If there is money to be made people will be interested and willing to invest. End of.0
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Since there was a serious disagreement over my view about the impact of Greek military budget to the financial instability of Greece,
i would like to mention that about 400 used M1 Abrams tanks, hundreds of heavy armored vehicles(Hummer) and Blackhawk chopers will be "given over" - no charge from USA to Greece.
Arms that are needed to sustain independence and to try to support oil interests of the country in the eastern mediterranean sea. I have no illusions. They will demand drilling rights over the national wealth of the country as a reward. They will earn many pieces of the maintenance cost pie against German interests.
Oil games applys to Cyprus as well. Since Cyprus will drill oil and gas between them and Israel WITH Israel, against Turkeys intentions and Germany wants to have a bite from that. Germany ,after decades of apathy about the greek-turkish dogfights and the small naval incidents inside Greece s borders, remembered to send 3 German battle ships to effect common military operations for testing reasons along with the navy of Cyprus...€
Meanwhile , Germans and French are promoting(on high political level)their military products in different fields of defence, by using again Siemmmmens type briefcases to the corrupted puppets of Athens. Germ-Europe at its best.
What an irony .... Ziiimensssss wants to effect seminars to the Greek public servants of how to avoid .... corruption . !!!!
I wonder what they will do in Berlin with the spare audis BMWs(and their workers) when southern countries will go out of Eurozone.0 -
The Greek people did it to themselves - Greece is a joke of a country, even more so than Ireland.I agree with every word. This could have been a conversation between two mates in a cafe or a bar in Greece, in regards to the puppets of Athens.
If anything, these politicians are the puppets of the Greeks who gave them power. Who voted these 'puppets' into power for the last 20 years? Who benefited from the generosity of these puppets? Surely not the Greeks?
Oh wait:Tax Collector No. 1—early 60s, business suit, tightly wound but not obviously nervous—arrived with a notebook filled with ideas for fixing the Greek tax-collection agency. He just took it for granted that I knew that the only Greeks who paid their taxes were the ones who could not avoid doing so—the salaried employees of corporations, who had their taxes withheld from their paychecks. The vast economy of self-employed workers—everyone from doctors to the guys who ran the kiosks that sold the International Herald Tribune—cheated (one big reason why Greece has the highest percentage of self-employed workers of any European country). “It’s become a cultural trait,” he said. “The Greek people never learned to pay their taxes. And they never did because no one is punished. No one has ever been punished. It’s a cavalier offense—like a gentleman not opening a door for a lady.”As it turned out, what the Greeks wanted to do, once the lights went out and they were alone in the dark with a pile of borrowed money, was turn their government into a piñata stuffed with fantastic sums and give as many citizens as possible a whack at it. In just the past decade the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled, in real terms—and that number doesn’t take into account the bribes collected by public officials. The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs: it’s still true.Oddly enough, the financiers in Greece remain more or less beyond reproach. They never ceased to be anything but sleepy old commercial bankers. Virtually alone among Europe’s bankers, they did not buy U.S. subprime-backed bonds, or leverage themselves to the hilt, or pay themselves huge sums of money. The biggest problem the banks had was that they had lent roughly 30 billion euros to the Greek government—where it was stolen or squandered. In Greece the banks didn’t sink the country. The country sank the banks.As he finishes his story the finance minister stresses that this isn’t a simple matter of the government lying about its expenditures. “This wasn’t all due to misreporting,” he says. “In 2009, tax collection disintegrated, because it was an election year.”
“What?”
He smiles.
“The first thing a government does in an election year is to pull the tax collectors off the streets.”
“You’re kidding.”
Now he’s laughing at me. I’m clearly naïve.On he went, describing a system that was, in its way, a thing of beauty. It mimicked the tax-collecting systems of an advanced economy—and employed a huge number of tax collectors—while it was in fact rigged to enable an entire society to cheat on their taxes. As he rose to leave, he pointed out that the waitress at the swanky tourist hotel failed to provide us with a receipt for our coffees. “There’s a reason for that,” he said. “Even this hotel doesn’t pay the sales tax it owes.”I walked down the street and found waiting for me, in the bar of another swanky tourist hotel, the second tax collector. Tax Collector No. 2—casual in manner and dress, beer-drinking, but terrified that others might discover he had spoken to me—also arrived with a binder full of papers, only his was stuffed with real-world examples not of Greek people but Greek companies that had cheated on their taxes. He then started to rattle off examples (“only the ones I personally witnessed”). The first was an Athenian construction company that had built seven giant apartment buildings and sold off nearly 1,000 condominiums in the heart of the city. Its corporate tax bill honestly computed came to 15 million euros, but the company had paid nothing at all. Zero. To evade taxes it had done several things. First, it never declared itself a corporation; second, it employed one of the dozens of companies that do nothing but create fraudulent receipts for expenses never incurred and then, when the tax collector stumbled upon the situation, offered him a bribe. The tax collector blew the whistle and referred the case to his bosses—whereupon he found himself being tailed by a private investigator, and his phones tapped. In the end the case was resolved, with the construction company paying 2,000 euros. “After that I was taken off all tax investigations,” said the tax collector, “because I was good at it.”
I recommend that anyone who is feeling sorry for the Greeks should read this excellent Vanity Fair article on how they destroyed their own country with corruption and greed.0 -
Damian ir, everyday people couldn't care less about tanks and bombs. And by everyday people I mean people that live on salaries and pensions, people who paid the taxes because they couldn't avoid to. These are the people that get the biggest impact on the austerity measures, when the people who were stealing for years keep stealing. Because we are a mess of a country.
Instead of giving away our drilling rights for tanks and choppers, maybe we should give them away in exchange for new job positions and country's development. Forget the big picture, because if we continue on this path. . .there will be noone left to pay taxes. . .0 -
Monty Burnz wrote:If anything, these politicians are the puppets of the Greeks who gave them power. Who voted these 'puppets' into power for the last 20 years? Who benefited from the generosity of these puppets? Surely not the Greeks? [/URL]
Who gave power to the people that were passing zimens type briefcases with money FROM Germany to Greece ? Do you blame all Germans for being responsible for corruption in Greece ?
When you have a corruption offence in the so called "European Union" you must have get caught two people and their associates. There are two sides to blame.0 -
Stop with the smokescreens and just pay your taxes already. It's Greece's fault, not Germany's.0
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Yes pay taxes that then through the same people, in Germany and in Greece that never getting caught, will become pools, holidays in a pacific island or exotic car in a well hidden house near a lake or a coast.0
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Germany is not known for corruption and tax evasion, quite the opposite.0
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The Greeks are to blame. That's how democracy works. They voted for people who promised them loads of (borrowed) cash. Now they've got the bill, and they've already gotten away with stealing 100 billion euros of someone else's money. Are you not embarrassed that your country could become a failed state like Afghanistan because your society is so thoroughly corrupt?Who gave power to the people that were passing zimens type briefcases with money FROM Germany to Greece ? Do you blame all Germans for being responsible for corruption in Greece ?
On a scale of one to ten, the EU scores about 2 on corruption. The Greeks are top of the class with 10 out of 10.When you have a corruption offence in the so called "European Union" you must have get caught two people and their associates. There are two sides to blame.0 -
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Monty Burnz wrote: »On a scale of one to ten, the EU scores about 2 on corruption. The Greeks are top of the class with 10 out of 10.
If we suppose that this is totally right, who are the associates of the corrupted Greeks ?
You will find them among German companies that are associated with Germany as a government. A few of these relations has started to come up in Athens.
I don't know if this is a pre-election publicity game but if it is not, i ll fill you in.0
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