Time to burn Greece?

Idbatterim

Give it 5 years and it will all be forgotten about. You got to remember it was Goldman Sachs that fiddled the books for them and I do not see anybody chasing them crooks. Believe me there will always be sombody willing to lend if they think they will get there money back.

I reckon IF anyone would be prepared to lend to them, it would be at a serious premium, would you be able to believe a word they said?

Farmer Pudsey

Idbatterim wrote: »

I reckon IF anyone would be prepared to lend to them, it would be at a serious premium, would you be able to believe a word they said?

This is not the first time the Greeks have defaulted and it will not be the last either. The Italians are in a bind every other time they ran into fiscal problems they kust devalued there currency the dreaded lira now they cannot do it at present and they will not accept austerity

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Give it 5 years and it will all be forgotten about. You got to remember it was Goldman Sachs that fiddled the books for them and I do not see anybody chasing them crooks.

Goldman Sachs were hired to 'fiddle the books', to find a way around the Euro regulations. They did nothing wrong in that instance, but the Greek government crooks did, carrying out a fraud on the rest of the Eurozone.

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Goldman Sachs were hired to 'fiddle the books', to find a way around the Euro regulations. They did nothing wrong in that instance, but the Greek government crooks did, carrying out a fraud on the rest of the Eurozone.

This is jusy another excuse for white collar crime. It always the same the Greeks are crooks but not Goldman Sachs. It was the same with all the auditor's that signed off on the bank accounts in Ireland. See no evil hear no evil speak no evil until it all goes pear shaped. Then we did not know as the Greeks ( or banks) fooled us.

If I was hired to rob a bank I go to jail it woud be no good saying I was only an employee but if I commit white collar crime it's the Greeks fault.
Did you ever hear of the Nazi's

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is jusy another excuse for white collar crime.

I'm sorry, but that's total nonsense. No crime was committed by GS. If you don't understand that, then you are out of your depth here.

beeftotheheels

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is not the first time the Greeks have defaulted and it will not be the last either.

Oh, it will, for the next 50 years or so. Greece has no chance of returning to the credit markets. Despite what some in the press might like to suggest about the markets having no memory, it is worth noting that prior to their EZ entry there was no Greek sovereign debt market. Because with their history of default, no one would lend to them until the implicit German guarantee of EZ membership. The markets do have a memory. They call it "risk". It was colossally mispriced in the run up to 2008, but the markets won't make that mistake again (for at least a generation in relation to Greece).

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The Italians are in a bind every other time they ran into fiscal problems they kust devalued there currency the dreaded lira now they cannot do it at present and they will not accept austerity

Italy has defaulted, once, partially, in the last several centuries. It partially defaulted against those creditors in countries with which it was at war, during WWII. Italy does not have the mentality of default which Greece clearly does. Italian debt is disproportionately owned by Italian investors hence their reticence to default on it. Italy managed a higher debt mountain, at higher interest rates, in the run up to euro membership. Hence the fact that Italy has traditionally run such a huge debt burden, and the third largest sovereign bond market in the world. Precisely because the markets do have a memory (called risk), and that memory tells them that Italy is good for the money.

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that's total nonsense. No crime was committed by GS. If you don't understand that, then you are out of your depth here.

If you are going to quote, quote all the statement as below

If I was hired to rob a bank I go to jail it woud be no good saying I was only an employee but if I commit white collar crime it's the Greeks fault.
Did you ever hear of the Nazi's.

I do not think I am out of my depth, but rather I can differceniate the smoke from the clouds. What Goldman Sachs did was wrong but it is only white collar crime and sure nobody was hurt ( just a lot of ordinary working class Greeks)


And do not ever again be so condesending to tell another poster that they are out of there depth just because you dislike there post as I think it was Willian Henry said
''Sir I totally disagree with what you said but I will defend to the death your right to say it.''

I may not have the quote totally right but that is the gist of it.

beeftotheheels

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

What Goldman Sachs did was wrong but it is only white collar crime and sure nobody was hurt ( just a lot of ordinary working class Greeks)

There is no evidence to date that any crime, white collar or otherwise, was committed.

The Greek Government, as elected by the Greek people, sought to borrow off-balance sheet and GS facilitated this.

If the Greek people had wanted to pay more taxes, or pay less benefits, or draw fewer or lower public sector salaries such that their Gov didn't need to borrow the cash they could have voted for different parties.

But just like the Irish people, the Greek electorate voted in the people who promised them the world with no price tag attached. Once that price tag become apparent they don't get to scream "foul", and no one gets to scream "crime" without that being found by a court of law.

Farmer Pudsey

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Italy has defaulted, once, partially, in the last several centuries. It partially defaulted against those creditors in countries with which it was at war, during WWII. Italy does not have the mentality of default which Greece clearly does. Italian debt is disproportionately owned by Italian investors hence their reticence to default on it. Italy managed a higher debt mountain, at higher interest rates, in the run up to euro membership. Hence the fact that Italy has traditionally run such a huge debt burden, and the third largest sovereign bond market in the world. Precisely because the markets do have a memory (called risk), and that memory tells them that Italy is good for the money.

I never said that the Italian's defaulted rather that they devalued there currency so may times during the 20th centuary that when you were paid it was in millions of lira and you need a barrow to take them home.

beeftotheheels

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I never said that the Italian's defaulted rather that they devalued there currency so may times during the 20th centuary that when you were paid it was in millions of lira and you need a barrow to take them home.

Interest rates and yields took devaluation risk into account. Yet even under those circumstances the bond market participants had lost all patience with Greece. So stop trying to equate the two. One has a history of adhering to rules, while the other has a history of trying to ignore the rules, and trying to ignore the consequences of ignoring said rules.

Farmer Pudsey

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Interest rates and yields took devaluation risk into account. Yet even under those circumstances the bond market participants had lost all patience with Greece. So stop trying to equate the two. One has a history of adhering to rules, while the other has a history of trying to ignore the rules, and trying to ignore the consequences of ignoring said rules.

History tells us that the Italians will not accept the pain. My own opinion on Greek exiting is that the pressure on Spain and Portagul will be huge as there citizen withdraw money from there banks who are bust. They have used the liquidity from the ECB to buy buy Spanish bonds to get a high intrest rate. Now these bonds are trading at way less than they bought them at. Only one of the big economies can be rescued either Spain or Italy not both and even one is dodgy.

When the Greeks go the donmino effect will begin as one by one the rest of us fall.

SupaNova

I see the Greece and the euro hype is still in full swing, the decision is much the same as it was a year ago, unless Greece want to inflict mass chaos and poverty on their population they will remain in the euro.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/birth-greek-drachma-pained-rushed-085904665.html

"It would be chaos," says Marios Efthymiopoulos, a visiting scholar at Johns Hopkins University Centre for Advanced International Studies and president of Thessaloniki-based think tank Global Strategy.


"The banks would collapse and you would have to nationalize them. You wouldn't be able to pay anyone except in coupons. There is only one (currency) printing press in Greece. It is in the museum in Athens and it doesn't work any more."



[...]


"It would be truly revolutionary, in every sense of the word," says Tyson Barker, head of transatlantic relations at the Bertelsmann Foundation. "There are various ways it could be done ... but you could end up like Cuba with use of multiple currencies or with essentially a barter economy, at least in the early days."


[...]


Euro savings held in Greek banks would inevitably be redenominated in the new currency -- with its rapidly slumping value. Physical euro notes already in circulation, however, would retain their value or even become much more prized.


It would most likely be necessary to close borders to stop Greeks smuggling out euros to stash in banks elsewhere. But with hundreds of miles to cover, much of it in inaccessible mountain, wood and scrubland, security forces would be stretched thin.


[...]



"An exit is technically feasible," said Lea at Control Risks. "But managerially, it is extremely difficult to do well. It requires a lot of planning and a lot of agreement. And given current circumstances, there is no chance of that."

A very realistic description of the nightmare that would ensue following a Grexit, do people think Greece will inflict this on themselves?

ArmaniJeanss

SupaNova wrote: »

I see the Greece and the euro hype is still in full swing, the decision is much the same as it was a year ago, unless Greece want to inflict mass chaos and poverty on their population they will remain in the euro.


A very realistic description of the nightmare that would ensue following a Grexit, do people think Greece will inflict this on themselves?

I'm sure the people of Greeece don't want this inflicted on themselves, but as yet there is no evidence that they are willing to do what is needed to prevent it. The opposite in fact, going by the results of ElectionOne.

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you are going to quote, quote all the statement as below

If I was hired to rob a bank I go to jail it woud be no good saying I was only an employee but if I commit white collar crime it's the Greeks fault.
Did you ever hear of the Nazi's.

I do not think I am out of my depth, but rather I can differceniate the smoke from the clouds. What Goldman Sachs did was wrong but it is only white collar crime and sure nobody was hurt ( just a lot of ordinary working class Greeks)


And do not ever again be so condesending to tell another poster that they are out of there depth just because you dislike there post as I think it was Willian Henry said
''Sir I totally disagree with what you said but I will defend to the death your right to say it.''

I may not have the quote totally right but that is the gist of it.

Um, I'm not saying you don't have the right to spout nonsense here, I'm just telling you that you are spouting nonsense. And I think you've slightly contradicted yourself by telling me 'never say X' and then giving us a quote supporting free speech...

The point is that GS did nothing criminal or even illegal - so there was no 'white collar crime' at all. Repeating the term and throwing in bizarre references to Nazis won't make it true.

SupaNova

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm sure the people of Greeece don't want this inflicted on themselves, but as yet there is no evidence that they are willing to do what is needed to prevent it. The opposite in fact, going by the results of ElectionOne.

With all the kicking and screaming, the choice is still two ****ty options, and even if the Greek public want a euro exit, in the end they may be just told its not possible. Time will tell.

Sponge Bob

By an large Greek Debt was a 1980s problem and the 2 massive spikes generally co incided with PASOK governments led by a Papandreu.



Source > http://www.economicsinpictures.com/2011/09/greek-debtgdp-only-22-in-1980.html

KINGVictor

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Goldman Sachs were hired to 'fiddle the books', to find a way around the Euro regulations. They did nothing wrong in that instance, but the Greek government crooks did, carrying out a fraud on the rest of the Eurozone.

For the sake of balancing the argument, I hope you know it wasnt just the Greeks that 'fiddled the books' to join the Euro.

And while Greece was commiting this 'fraud' presenting false data to meet the requirements of joining the Euro- what verification mechanism was put in place to ensure the credibility of their submission? Surely, the EU commission / the ECB or any relavant body should have been more dilligent in establishing the veracity of the metrics by which they judged a member state's entry into the Euro. Well unless they deliberately turned a blind eye and ignored the risk of a moral hazard occuring in the future.

I feel you are been disingenious in not accepting any form of culpability on the part of GS. They essentially conspired with the 'Greek government crooks' as you termed them in exchange for monetary benefits. You dont think they should be held accountable or share some of the blame?

Monty Burnz

KINGVictor wrote: »

For the sake of balancing the argument, I hope you know it wasnt just the Greeks that 'fiddled the books' to join the Euro.

Indeed, but pointing at others who get away without stuff isn't a valid defence.

KINGVictor wrote: »

And while Greece was commiting this 'fraud' presenting false data to meet the requirements of joining the Euro- what verification mechanism was put in place to ensure the credibility of their submission? Surely, the EU commission / the ECB or any relavant body should have been more dilligent in establishing the veracity of the metrics by which they judged a member state's entry into the Euro. Well unless they deliberately turned a blind eye and ignored the risk of a moral hazard occuring in the future.

They certainly should have never let Greece in, but then they would have been accused of anti-Greek bias - much as they are now.

KINGVictor wrote: »

I feel you are been disingenious in not accepting any form of culpability on the part of GS. They essentially conspired with the 'Greek government crooks' as you termed them in exchange for monetary benefits. You dont think they should be held accountable or share some of the blame?

Not at all. They were consulted on something and provided an answer. Nothing illegal happened. I'm not sure what you think GS should have done in their position?

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Not at all. They were consulted on something and provided an answer. Nothing illegal happened. I'm not sure what you think GS should have done in their position?

This is very good so if a bank robber consulted a bank staff member about a the alarm codes and maybe for plans of the bank and the times that the most cash was in the bank he have done nothing wrong. It all down to the lazy attitude about white collar crime. I sure GS knew why the crooked greeks as you called them wanted the information and they conspired with them to to allow them to fiddle the books

I may be wrong but did GS not arrange some of the loans for the greeks?????

KINGVictor

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Indeed, but pointing at others who get away without stuff isn't a valid defence.

I never said it was valid defence, I was merely pointing out the fact that the Greece was not the only country to present false data on the stipulated metrics in joining the Euro zone which I feel is an indictment on the EU as an establishment on how they dealt with allowing member nations entry into the EMU.




They certainly should have never let Greece in, but then they would have been accused of anti-Greek bias - much as they are now.

That is ridiculous and very subjective. Like you acknowledged above, they allowed other countries apart from Greece that knowingly provided distorted and false economic data into the EMU so it wasn’t a case of anti-Greek bias at all. Unless you are insinuating that they were avoiding accusations of anti- Italian or anti- French bias as well.




Not at all. They were consulted on something and provided an answer. Nothing illegal happened. I'm not sure what you think GS should have done in their position?


I am not following you here. So GS was consulted to provide some form of creative accounting in an attempt manipulate economic statistics in other to facilitate Greece's entry in to the EZ, a job they carried out proficiently and you don’t have a problem with it?

You know what I GS should have done? As a globally respected organisation that is supposed to have a clearly defined corporate governance structure, they should have presented the FACTS as it was and shouldn't have aided the ' corrupt Greek politicians'. The reality is they are just as corrupt as the politicians that paid for their services!

Monty Burnz

KINGVictor wrote: »

That is ridiculous and very subjective. Like you acknowledged above, they allowed other countries apart from Greece that knowingly provided distorted and false economic data into the EMU so it wasn’t a case of anti-Greek bias at all. Unless you are insinuating that they were avoiding accusations of anti- Italian or anti- French bias as well.

I'm suggesting that the Greeks would have accused the EU of anti-Greek bias if they did not let them join EMU.

KINGVictor wrote: »

You know what I GS should have done? As a globally respected organisation that is supposed to have a clearly defined corporate governance structure, they should have presented the FACTS as it was and shouldn't have aided the ' corrupt Greek politicians'. The reality is they are just as corrupt as the politicians that paid for their services!

Presented what facts to whom? Who was going to pay them for this?
They were hired to do some financial engineering, which they did. The Greeks should not have held the Olympics either as they could not afford it - should we attack the engineers who they hired to design the Olympic stadium?

Peanut

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The Greeks should not have held the Olympics either as they could not afford it - should we attack the engineers who they hired to design the Olympic stadium?

I think the point is that GS were knowing colluders in unethical activity. It seems unlikely that the same could be said of engineers working on a tendered project in good faith. Translated to a corporate environment, for example in the sense of an external audit, what GS (and Greece) did most likely would have been a criminal offence. Enron springs to mind.

At the end of the day, none of the Greek government, the Greek people, the EU, GS or whoever else can entirely wash their hands of the situation.

What GS did may have been legal at the time, but they can certainly be criticised for the ethics of their actions. This may help lead to increased governance in order to try to prevent a repeat occurrence, even on a smaller scale. (although a change of attitude would likely be more effective than changes in legislation...)

Greece-Goldman Sachs Deals Were 'Completely Scandalous' - And Perfectly Legal

Monty Burnz

Peanut wrote: »

What GS did may have been legal at the time, but they can certainly be criticised for the ethics of their actions. This may help lead to increased governance in order to try to prevent a repeat occurrence, even on a smaller scale. (although a change of attitude would likely be more effective than changes in legislation...)]

From your linked article:

Though Goldman Sachs has been widely criticized of late for a 2002 deal that helped Greece mask its debt, blaming the bank is something of a "red-ish herring," Wolf said. "Goldman didn't break the law. People knew what they were doing and it wasn't a big deal...it was allowed," Wolf said. "It's another indication of ways in which governments connived with the financial sector all over the world to do things they really shouldn't have allowed to happen."

GS weren't elected to run Greece. They are accountable to their shareholders.

creedp

Monty Burnz wrote: »

From your linked article:

GS weren't elected to run Greece. They are accountable to their shareholders.

So as long as what they did wasn't illegal we shouldn't critisize GS. I'm sure that's what the new shareholders in Facebook are saying re: the legal activities of GS and other similar organisation in conection with the Facebook IPO. Same with the auditors here with their financial engineering of the banks financial accounts prior to collapse of the sector .. what a truly non-accountable sector the high finance field is. Accontability to sharheolders is a nice theoretical argument that hasn't stood the test when it has come to serious collapses in the corporate world.

Monty Burnz

creedp wrote: »

So as long as what they did wasn't illegal we shouldn't critisize GS.

Criticize away, but don't for one second pretend that GS are to blame for Greece's predicament. They were the tool of a corrupt government working for a corrupt society.

KINGVictor

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Criticize away, but don't for one second pretend that GS are to blame for Greece's predicament. They were the tool of a corrupt government working for a corrupt society.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that GS is solely responsible for Greece's predicament but yes they are a contributory factor. Like you said they were used as a tool by the government to manipulate data so as to gain entry into the EZ. There is no need for semantics like financial engineering etc, they knowingly cooked the books on behalf of the Greek government, hence they should share some of the blame. Evading this fact is sloppy and hypocritical.

Their consultational role was not merely advisory in nature like that of KPMG? under Cowen's government in Ireland, in which case, the government had the choice to either accept or ignore their recommendations. The fact is GS was commissioned by the Greek government to distort economic data to meet the set requirements demanded by the European Commission.

You also have not convincingly addressed the issue that the EU had either failed to spot these inaccuracies presented by Greece and other member states OR they could have in fact ignored the long-term risks to satisfy their overriding desire for the European political project. Your assertion that they were trying to avoid the perception of an anti-Greek bias is unfounded and unacceptable. They could have sensibly gone ahead with just 7 or 8 countries and further enlarged as other countries met the stipulated requirements.

Wibbs

I'd simplify it down further. Why did the EU bods turn a blind eye when even a passing windowlicking eejit could tell Greece and Portugal and a couple of others were presenting... let's just say, tainted books? Not unlike the banks here during the boom. I know people who wanted daft loans, who handed in books that would pass the requirements for Ripley's believe it or not, who were then given said daft loans. Sure I apportion blame to the muppets chancing their arms, but I apportion more blame to those tasked with muppet spotting. Then again our banking section had one thing in common with the EU bods, they wanted it to be true. They wanted the dream to work out.

K-9

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd simplify it down further. Why did the EU bods turn a blind eye when even a passing windowlicking eejit could tell Greece and Portugal and a couple of others were presenting... let's just say, tainted books? Not unlike the banks here during the boom. I know people who wanted daft loans, who handed in books that would pass the requirements for Ripley's believe it or not, who were then given said daft loans. Sure I apportion blame to the muppets chancing their arms, but I apportion more blame to those tasked with muppet spotting. Then again our banking section had one thing in common with the EU bods, they wanted it to be true. They wanted the dream to work out.

As Gordon Brown put it "No more boom and bust".

Irish Aris

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Criticize away, but don't for one second pretend that GS are to blame for Greece's predicament. They were the tool of a corrupt government working for a corrupt society.

I'd say that after the Enron story, it's not very clear who's to blame and who's not. If I recall correctly, Arthur Andersen didn't really get out of it clean and it was a similar case of creative accounting. I think that was the main reason for Sarbanes-Oxley law. Maybe they should have imposed it to countries as well.

Greece's problem is 30 years old and it can't be solved in a year or two.
All this discussion is totally pointless. Maybe they should put us out of this misery and kick us out for good. Greece would still be in misery but at least it would be its own. Anyway, there is no way they are going to get all the loaned money back and I can't really understand why they keep lending us money.

Monty Burnz, I understand your point but, as I said before, my perspective is different.
The way you argue at some points is as if all 10 million of Greeks are to blame, which is not the case. To me it's just a generalisation that many use to prove that "all Greeks are bad and they deserve the worst". And I don't accept that.

golden lane

all greeks are human........that is the cause of any problem......