AL Cadet programme

D.R Adams

LeftBase wrote: »

Another issue is this "chip on the shoulder thing". It should be noted that a job in Aer Lingus for the young man about town is only free ketchup away from a job in any other airline. I work from the same base as many of these cadets will no doubt end up in, flying a slight variant of the aircraft they will fly. When I was rejected at interview of course I was annoyed and disappointed, but I got on with it and have learned that Aer Lingus is not the only gig in town, and even if it was there are better bands playing in the big city. My objection to their nepotism is moral and not for my own self gain. Perhaps in the future I will apply to them again with a few 1000 hours, but when you have a few 1000 hours there are better places than Aer Lingus willing to hire you. In fact there are a number of Aer Lingus pilots more keen to get out than any of you are to get in.

Great post LeftBase... and right on the money IMO.

Aer Lingus is well known (as are most state or semi-state companies) for nepotism and I don't think anyone here can dispute that. There has long been a culture of winks and nods in AL and it will always continue.

LeftBase

kona wrote: »

!!!?

Candidate B. No parents but same level of knowledge about the inside of Aer Lingus. Suggests they have done more research and work to uncover the info.

It's an example. And illustration of how the "they know all about being a pilot and it's demands" theory doesn't wash in an equality sense.

kona

LeftBase wrote: »

Candidate B. No parents but same level of knowledge about the inside of Aer Lingus. Suggests they have done more research and work to uncover the info.

It's an example. And illustration of how the "they know all about being a pilot and it's demands" theory doesn't wash in an equality sense.

Well to get the same knowledge they would have to know somebody in aer lingus!

Shamrock231

Bessarion wrote: »

So a girl who's dad was a pilot in the 1960-70's wanted to be like him. She manged to fufill her dream in 1979. Her sister followed suit and ended up flying for another Irish airline. While working as a pilot the first girl met and married another pilot. They had 2 kids who funnily enough wanted to emulate their parents.

This sounds like a family tradition to me. Imagine the depth of aviation knowledge those 2 kids would have by the age of 12-14, with dinner conversations being focused on the company that both parents work for. I would hazard a guess that many of their parents mates were also pilots.
Also both kid would be very aware of the shift patterns and related stress that being a commercial airline pilot entails. And neither would be fooled by the non-aviation image of glamour in the sky a la "Pan Am"

Best post on here so far. All things being equal, the one with the connection and loyalty to the company is the better choice for Aer Lingus, and I'm saying that as an outside with no connection to Aer Lingus but wants to fly for them. I see exactly the logic behind it, and I'd be raging if I lost to a son/daughter/nephew etc, but I'd get it, and all things being equal I'd probably have done the same. Shoot me.

donkey balls

A mate of mine got a job in the ESB back in the 90s and everyone working there had a blood relative also working there,At one stage one of the lads asked him who my mate was related to within the company which he replied no one the look on the guys face:p.
The airport in general has always been like that with whole family's working there I even knew of a very well known freight company that seemingly only hired people who had relatives working there.
Nepotism`is still alive and well in good aul Ireland many a time my mates and lads in the pub have asked me why I never bothered in getting a job with my aul lads place,(job for life etc)I told them that I'm my own man and any job that I got was on my own merits/experience&quals.

kona

donkey balls wrote: »

A mate of mine got a job in the ESB back in the 90s and everyone working there had a blood relative also working there,At one stage one of the lads asked him who my mate was related to within the company which he replied no one the look on the guys face:p.
The airport in general has always been like that with whole family's working there I even knew of a very well known freight company that seemingly only hired people who had relatives working there.
Nepotism`is still alive and well in good aul Ireland many a time my mates and lads in the pub have asked me why I never bothered in getting a job with my aul lads place,(job for life etc)I told them that I'm my own man and any job that I got was on my own merits/experience&quals.

And the flip side is that people who have a relative there, are immediately in the bracket of getting there on the basis of their relatives and not skills. Which is used as a cop out by others, as can be seen in the 2k posts here.
So often it can be a hindrance as well as an advantage.

LeftBase

kona wrote: »

Well to get the same knowledge they would have to know somebody in aer lingus!

Not necessarily. You could seek out Aer Lingus pilots or read up on Aer Lingus through books(they are paper things) etc.
Speaking to a pilot to gain some knowledge is a world away from having a parent who will sway things.

Shamrock231 wrote: »

Best post on here so far. All things being equal, the one with the connection and loyalty to the company is the better choice for Aer Lingus, and I'm saying that as an outside with no connection to Aer Lingus but wants to fly for them. I see exactly the logic behind it, and I'd be raging if I lost to a son/daughter/nephew etc, but I'd get it, and all things being equal I'd probably have done the same. Shoot me.

The part I highlighted is a bit interesting. To be honest I dont think there are many current Aer Lingus pilots who would advise their kids to seek a life long career there. A leg in the airline pilot door yes, but not a career. It's not the type of place you can build your house on anymore. The pay and conditions are very different to what they were and subject to possible change too.

kona

LeftBase wrote: »

Not necessarily. You could seek out Aer Lingus pilots or read up on Aer Lingus through books(they are paper things) etc.
Speaking to a pilot to gain some knowledge is a world away from having a parent who will sway things.



The part I highlighted is a bit interesting. To be honest I dont think there are many current Aer Lingus pilots who would advise their kids to seek a life long career there. A leg in the airline pilot door yes, but not a career. It's not the type of place you can build your house on anymore. The pay and conditions are very different to what they were and subject to possible change too.

Not everything is public knowledge, there's some bits of experience you get by listening to your parent/ relative over 20 odd years. Likewise people talk in work, the kid who did well in their junior cert who people heard about, is suddenly the adult infront of you asking for a job.

Likewise the ty student who was talking about being a pilot at 16 is now 20 odd telling you the same thing in an interview.

LeftBase

kona wrote: »

Not everything is public knowledge, there's some bits of experience you get by listening to your parent/ relative over 20 odd years. Likewise people talk in work, the kid who did well in their junior cert who people heard about, is suddenly the adult infront of you asking for a job.

Likewise the ty student who was talking about being a pilot at 16 is now 20 odd telling you the same thing in an interview.

Perhaps they should be open and up front about it then. Take 20 cadets but make it clear that children of pilots cannot use insider knowledge. Who and what they know should have no bearing on the selection. It's about them not their parents

kona

LeftBase wrote: »

Perhaps they should be open and up front about it then. Take 20 cadets but make it clear that children of pilots cannot use insider knowledge. Who and what they know should have no bearing on the selection. It's about them not their parents

Do you think they stroll in. Pissed n say gimme a job. My dad is xyz!?

They are qualified and of a high calibre, and when investing 100k in somebody to fly hundreds of people thousands of miles in million euro equipment you have to pick the right people.
Seems they did and have done consistently for over 50 years.
To be honest putting it bluntly alot of the people complaining about nepotism have unbelievably poor attitudes and would be a poor choice beside that girl people are bitching about.

smurfjed

When I was rejected at interview of course I was annoyed and disappointed, but I got on with it and have learned that Aer Lingus is not the only gig in town, and even if it was there are better bands playing in the big city.

When you got rejected by EI, you went off and bought your present job, you have previously stated that your available income at the end of the month is 800 Euro, so would you seriously consider this a "better band"?

With the number of posts that you make on this subject, it really appears that you have a chip on your shoulder.

smurfjed

Bessarion

LeftBase wrote: »

........The part I highlighted is a bit interesting. To be honest I dont think there are many current Aer Lingus pilots who would advise their kids to seek a life long career there. A leg in the airline pilot door yes, but not a career. It's not the type of place you can build your house on anymore. The pay and conditions are very different to what they were and subject to possible change too.

And we may well see a change in the coming years....perhaps current EI pilots will not encourage their kids to join the company....perhaps the children of EI pilots will go elsewhere. EI will then continue to hire pilots for the reasons that they think are best. And some ppl will still complain that they were unsuccessful at getting into EI.

I was unsuccessful in the EI cadet program twice in the past.....I have managed to cope with the disappointment to date.

LeftBase

smurfjed wrote: »

When you got rejected by EI, you went off and bought your present job, you have previously stated that your available income at the end of the month is 800 Euro, so would you seriously consider this a "better band"?

With the number of posts that you make on this subject, it really appears that you have a chip on your shoulder.

smurfjed

You always seem to bring this "bought my job" thing up. I's getting tiring at this stage.

Never said what I was doing now was a "better band" however it is no worse for pay and conditions than what Aer Lingus crew in my base are on. The point I was making is that there are a lot lot higher targets to aim at than Aer Lingus. Lots of people have the "Aer Lingus or bust" attitude and will always set their sights on that when there are far better terms/pay etc to be had in other airlines who are more willing to hire.

"

Flier

I don't really want to get too drawn into this debate but...

Years ago, when EI was a semi state, yes - it and many other semi-states were probably guilty of nepotism. I've heard people say they were used almost as a way to keep people off the live register! But things have changed now, it's not a semi-state anymore, it's answerable to its shareholders, and is not in the habit of handing out jobs to Jr.

There is no 'insider information' required to get into EI as a pilot or anything else. But you are expected to know a lot about the training, the job and the company, it's fleet, it's network, it's history. Kids who have a parent a pilot in EI will know what the lifestyle will be, how promotion, seniority, fleet and base freezes etc work, so anything along these lines that comes up at interview will be second nature to them, and they will come across as well informed and well prepared. As someone else put it, they won't be expecting the 'Pan Am' picture of aviation. It's possible to find out all this information, you'll just have to make an effort to find people who can help (six degrees of separation and all that).

As regards EI as an employer, like every other pilot employer I can think of off the top of head, yes for sure things have changed a lot over the years. It is not the cushy number it was 20 years ago. But that's not just EI, it's industry wide. Like every other business out there, margins are tight and profits need to be made. If one of my kids wanted to be a pilot would I encourage them to apply for and join EI if they got a chance? Well first I would ask them to think long and hard about their choice of career! I don't think I would actively encourage any of them to choose it. A pilot's life is not going to be getting easier any time soon, and will almost definitely get a whole lot harder. Having said that, if their heart was set on it, then, yes EI is a good employer. T&Cs are a lot better there than in many companies, and you will be able to build your house on the salary they'll give you. Sure you might get better money contracting or heading down to the gulf, but there's very few people who are cut out for that lifestyle, maybe for a few years before retirement to build up a nest egg. Going into that game as a senior training captain is a hugely different senario than as a fresh faced F/O.

Honestly, do I think nepotism exists in pilot recruitment in EI? Well yes, there are quite a few sons and daughters in there. But they all make the grade and more, so they deserve to be there as much as I do (no relations). When you think about it, they have great references! Equally, if daddy's a plonker and word has it that so is junior, I don't think he's going to get in no matter how great an interview he does or how many exams he passed. Is it an advantage? In most cases, yes. Is it nepotism, no, I really don't think so.

basill

Equally, if daddy's a plonker and word has it that so is junior

Whilst everyone is focusing on the positive discrimination I can assure anyone that is not in Aer Lingus that over the years there have been some prized pr*cks who didn't stand a chance getting little Johnny or Jennifer in the front door.

The_Big_One

basill wrote: »

Whilst everyone is focusing on the positive discrimination I can assure anyone that is not in Aer Lingus that over the years there have been some prized pr*cks who didn't stand a chance getting little Johnny or Jennifer in the front door.

This thread gets funnier. So now that the consensus is that, yes, nepotism is well and truely alive in EI you try sell it to us by telling us that great candidates with assho!es for fathers are getting discounted. That really fills me with confidence as to how the current insiders on the Cadetship were picked...

Figures speak for themselves. Out of 20 cadets 2, that I know of, are daughters of pilots. That's 10%, at least. If say 2000 applied and the process was above reproach then about 200 children of pilots should have applied to make that percentage in the last stages (if it were fair). I'm pretty sure the percentage on the cadetship (even when evened out over all the cadetships) is far higher than the percentage of the overall figure that applied. I haven't even gone beyond the pilots. :eek: The trend it seems is here to stay.

All in all, it's a joke. To say that you need the inbred culture to insure you get the quality of personnel it takes to fly millions of euro worth of gear is bullsh!t. Maybe ask B.A., Air France, etc. how they do it. EI are obviously incompetent in the HR department if they can't choose decent cadets outside the family... (Of course I know this isn't true. The real reason is - jobs for the boys. But, if the above makes you feel better about yourself, family, or whatever then good for you).

Shamrock231

The_Big_One wrote: »

To say that you need the inbred culture to insure you get the quality of personnel it takes to fly millions of euro worth of gear is bullsh!t. Maybe ask B.A., Air France, etc. how they do it. EI are obviously incompetent in the HR department if they can't choose decent cadets outside the family... (Of course I know this isn't true. The real reason is - jobs for the boys. But, if the above makes you feel better about yourself, family, or whatever then good for you).

No one is saying you need it, people are just saying that 1, it's not a disadvantage to functioning as a pilot, whether it's an advantage or not is debatable and 2, just because you're related to a member of staff in EI shouldn't discount you from being a pilot for them, I'm sure they're just as capable as anyone else of flying aircraft so stop knocking them, they've proven themselves by passing the skills test first and now by recieving their ATPLs and the fact that EI hasn't had a fatal crash in years stands to the skill of ALL the pilots in EI and that they ALL have passed a very high standard of safety.

The_Big_One

Shamrock231 wrote: »

No one is saying you need it, people are just saying that 1, it's not a disadvantage to functioning as a pilot, whether it's an advantage or not is debatable and 2, just because you're related to a member of staff in EI shouldn't discount you from being a pilot for them, I'm sure they're just as capable as anyone else of flying aircraft so stop knocking them, they've proven themselves by passing the skills test first and now by recieving their ATPLs and the fact that EI hasn't had a fatal crash in years stands to the skill of ALL the pilots in EI and that they ALL have passed a very high standard of safety.

If you reread my post I mentioned figures. On the face of it it does seem an advantage. I agree, being related shouldn't hold you back but if it were fair the percentages picked for the cadetship would be overall in line with the percentage of children of staff that apply.

I'm not knocking them. I'm knocking the HR system that selected so many of them.

Ryanair has a pretty decent safety record too. A decent safety record is due to many reasons and doesn't justify an unfair system in an organisation. The fact Ryanair has never killed anyone shouldn't stop criticism of work practices there, some of which are bad.

Dr.Rieux

The_Big_One wrote: »

If you reread my post I mentioned figures. On the face of it it does seem an advantage. I agree, being related shouldn't hold you back but if it were fair the percentages picked for the cadetship would be overall in line with the percentage of children of staff that apply.

I'm not knocking them. I'm knocking the HR system that selected so many of them.

Ryanair has a pretty decent safety record too. A decent safety record is due to many reasons and doesn't justify an unfair system in an organisation. The fact Ryanair has never killed anyone shouldn't stop criticism of work practices there, some of which are bad.

To be honest the figures you mentioned are pretty useless. 20 is far too small a sample to extract any meaningful information from.

The cadet choice may have been based on nepotism or the best candidate for the job and people can believe what they want. I for one would be very surprised if nepotism was part of the selection criteria officially or unofficially.

Flier

The_Big_One wrote: »

This thread gets funnier. So now that the consensus is that, yes, nepotism is well and truely alive in EI

I think you might reread the thread if you think that's what the general consensus is. A bit of critical reasoning wouldn't go astray here.

The_Big_One wrote: »

Figures speak for themselves.

Em.. Maybe if all 2000 (your estimate) candidates that applied were equally qualified and did equally good interviews and had equally good results on the psychometric testing, and had equally good references, then maybe you would see the same proportion getting through. Way too many variables in there to make it a straight percentage game. An as Dr Rieux pointed out, even if you could even out all the variables, it's too small a sample and your results would not be significant. Your statistics fall down on the first perusal. looks like a bit more critical reasoning required here too.

But it thinking that makes you feel better about yourself, as you said yourself, go ahead, good for you.

LeftBase

The fact there have been no deaths is a little beside the point I think. No airline will put somebody who cannot do the job on the flight deck.

However in the past Aer Lingus has been guilty of taking sons and daughters who do not meet the basic selection criteria that Aer Lingus set out.
In the last DE opening there were a few people inquiring over entry criteria who were told first time passes in all ATPL, CPL and IR exams(paper and air) were required for a successful application. This has been a long running theme in Aer Lingus and many other airlines and is fair enough. However it is a fact that sons and daughters of pilots have been passed to interview and hired despite the fact they had ATPL fails and partials on their record. One didnt even hold a fATPL yet but was interviewed. This is grossly unfair as it is a clear "one set of rules for them and another for the rest"

This does not endanger safety, you can fail any number of exams and still end up being a safe pilot, but it is bending the criteria that everyone has to keep to only because they are connected.

Flier

Leftbase - you seem to know loads of people in Aer Lingus - you should have no problem getting in.:rolleyes:

LeftBase

Flier wrote: »

Leftbase - you seem to know loads of people in Aer Lingus - you should have no problem getting in.:rolleyes:

I know a few yes. I have a few friends in there. It's very hard to hang around Irish aviation and not know a fair few Aer Lingus people. And there in lies my point. Some of the guys who have got in and have parents in there may well warrant selection and that is totally fine. However good applicants are being passed over with better aviation records for people who do not meet the criteria set out on the application for no other reason than family connections.

kona

LeftBase wrote: »

However good applicants are being passed over with better aviation records for people who do not meet the criteria set out on the application for no other reason than family connections.

Rubbish.

LeftBase

kona wrote: »

Rubbish.

Say that if you want. It doesn't change the fact it's happening.

Milan Cobian

Leftbase, unless you're privy to the psychometric test results, were present at the interviews and sat on the review boards, you can't possibly know who the best candidates were. Your view of a "good candidate" may not have been any good at the some aspect of the process - I presume you don't administer complete assessments on your friends.
Some AL pilots have relations in the company, most don't. Some solicitors/doctors/binmen have relations in the same profession, most don't. That's life unless you close out all jobs to anyone who has a relation doing the same.

smurfjed

You always seem to bring this "bought my job" thing up

Thats because you don't appear to see the correlation between eroding terms and conditions and the fact that people are will to stump up a big lump of money to get the job in the first place.

smurfjed

basill

Big boy your 10% assertion is way off the mark.

When we last had the big recruitment drive from mid 2006 around 70 people joined. The first batch were the cadets of 9/11 that were let go. The majority came back into the fold. The next recruits were those with A320 ratings and relatively low time. Then it was a mix of graduates from flight school and direct entries from AA, FR, Easy, Charters and Cityjet etc. I think I can count on one hand those of the 70 that had a connection. They all went through the same tests as the current batch of cadets.

Since 2006 the next recruitment spurt was to take on some pilots for BFS and LGW. They were predominantly from Easy or CTC from memory and I don't think any had any connection. They were in the right place at the right time and rated on the A320.

The contractors joining us at the moment are all A320 rated and many with low hours and often haven't flown in quite a long time. None of them have connections.

Keep on preaching your trusty old begrudgery if you want but the reality is that there are many ways to get a job in Aer Lingus should you wish to and you don't need a relative to get you in the door.

Xpro

Anyways,
While on the recruitment subject and what EI want i heard, a 25 year old guy from NI that also applied for aerlingus cadetship but unfortunately didnt get trough, he applied for BA cadetship that was ran not too long ago and was successful.

The fact that he made it trough BA requirements and their apptitude and psychometric tests it goes to show you that he was good enough for them, but obvoisluy not good enough for EI. ( and the fact he hadnt got a parent or relative working in the airline)

Flier

Hate to have to point out the very obvious here (it's that critical reasoning thing again), but BA and EI are different companies. Passing an aptitude test and a psychometric test prove that you have the aptitude to fly and are not a borderline psychopath (or something like that:)) but it doesn't prove you are good enough for anyone. He could have done a crap interview at EI, he could have told them he didn't want to fly airbus. He could have just given the impression that he was a plonker. Maybe BA like to employ plonkers.
So if I 'heard' (another alarm bell going off there) of 'a guy' who interviewed for a job at AIB but was unsuccessful, but was then taken on in a similar role at BofI (no relations at AIB), that the reason is obviously nepotism at AIB?
Do you not see how stupid this conclusion sounds?