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Queen's Visit Q&A Megamerge

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    #62
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Its implied in the text.

    ...If it appears to a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of superintendent that it is necessary in the interests of safety or for the purpose of preserving order to restrict the access of persons to a place where an event is taking or is about to take place which attracts, or is likely to attract, a large assembly of persons...

    How anyone could interpret that to apply to stop and search powers several days before and miles away from where the queen of England passes by is beyond me.

    How is it implied ? There is nothing in that clause which could possibly be interperted as placing restrictions on the timeframe for such an event.The event is "about to take place". That explicitly provides a Superintendent of An Garda Siochana with powers prior to an event taking place.

    Again, I will ask you, on what basis does this legislation provide a limitation on the the timeframe of a "public event" ?


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    #63
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Its implied in the text.

    ...If it appears to a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of superintendent that it is necessary in the interests of safety or for the purpose of preserving order to restrict the access of persons to a place where an event is taking or is about to take place which attracts, or is likely to attract, a large assembly of persons...

    How anyone could interpret that to apply to stop and search powers several days before and miles away from where the queen of England passes by is beyond me.

    It's not implied at all. How anyone can interpret it to not allow barriers to be erected a day or so before hand is beyond me. Don't forget, each place she visits in Dublin will most likely be considered a seperate event but they have chosen to use the same boundaries for each one.


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    #64
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Its implied in the text.

    Laws rarely make allowances for implications. They don't stand up in court.


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    #65
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Het-Field wrote: »
    Again, I will ask you, on what basis does this legislation provide a limitation on the the timeframe of a "public event" ?
    The text says that an event, which draws a crowd, is occuring or is about to occur and allows extended powers within a mile of that event. Those are clearly limitations of timeframe and of location.


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    #66
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    CiaranC wrote: »
    The text says that an event, which draws a crowd, is occuring or is about to occur and allows extended powers within a mile of that event. Those are clearly limitations of timeframe and of location.

    Limitations which have been complied with.


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    #67
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Limitations which have been complied with.

    They are putting in a time-frame. Granted it's a long time-frame but there are still limitations that the Gardai are telling people about.


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    #68
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    CiaranC wrote: »
    The text says that an event, which draws a crowd, is occuring or is about to occur and allows extended powers within a mile of that event. Those are clearly limitations of timeframe and of location.

    I recognise the limitation of location. I have never disputed that.

    I have disputed your claim that there is a limitation on "timeframe". Please define "about to take place". Those words are broad and open-ended, and could be construed widely. There is no defined timeframe. It is a case-by-case matter.


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    #69
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    They are putting in a time-frame. Granted it's a long time-frame but there are still limitations that the Gardai are telling people about.

    It is broad and gives the authorities a wide remit on determining "timeframe".


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    #70
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    They are putting in a time-frame. Granted it's a long time-frame but there are still limitations that the Gardai are telling people about.

    Not really. Don't the roads only close from the Monday? Which is close to the "event".


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    #71
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Not really. Don't the roads only close from the Monday? Which is close to the "event".

    They're releasing the information as they can as far as I'm aware. They can't just lay out the Queen's itinerary this far in advance - that'd be just inviting trouble.


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    #72
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Limitations which have been complied with.
    Please explain how a stop and search, a checkpoint or a barrier related to this event, more than a mile away from where the queen of england will be and where a crowd will be, several days before she is there, complies with the limitations section 21?

    Nobody would object to the normal barriers and checks on the way into the location of an actual event involving the queen of England. I just cannot see how this legislation allows barriers and checks elsewhere in the city.


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    #73
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    These checks and such are not being done just for the queen's visit. There is also a major sporting event next week in the city (Europa Cup Final), and then also the visit by Obama.


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    #74
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Please explain how a stop and search, a checkpoint or a barrier related to this event, more than a mile away from where the queen of england will be and where a crowd will be, several days before she is there, complies with the limitations section 21?

    Nobody would object to the normal barriers and checks on the way into the location of an actual event involving the queen of England. I just cannot see how this legislation allows barriers and checks elsewhere in the city.

    Where is it more than a mile away?


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    #75
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Het-Field wrote: »
    I have disputed your claim that there is a limitation on "timeframe".
    So by that logic, the 2013 All-Ireland GAA final could be deemed "about to happen" and the Gardai could award themselves extended powers in the run-up to that event. What a load of nonsense, of course there is limitation on timeframe, why else would the text explicitly say "is taking or is about to take place". Its clearly to limit the timeframe that Gardai can use these extra powers, otherwise they could just use them whenever they like. Its totally disingenous to suggest otherwise, and you know it.


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    #76
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Paulw wrote: »
    These checks and such are not being done just for the queen's visit. There is also a major sporting event next week in the city (Europa Cup Final), and then also the visit by Obama.

    It is a massive two weeks for the country internationally. The Queen, Obama, Europa final, Northern Ireland international and the Slane concert.


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    #77
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Most major sporting or music events however do not carry with them the same risks of bombings that a visit by the Queen of England does.


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    #78
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,270 ✭✭✭source


    CiaranC checkpoints can be set up anywhere in the state, at anytime by any member of An Garda Siochana, for the purpose of detecting crime. It is a seperate operation of An Garda Siochana, and does not have a narrow focus. Members at these checkpoints will deal with any offences presented to them. They will also gather intelligence.

    Checkpoints occur up and down the country every day of the week, and are covered under the road traffic legislation.


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    #79
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Interesting stuff. Do you know what legislation that falls under foinse?
    paulw wrote:
    These checks and such are not being done just for the queen's visit. There is also a major sporting event next week in the city (Europa Cup Final)
    Clearly it would be ridiculous to stop and search people in say, D8, as a security measure for a football match in Ringsend. :)


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    #80
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    CiaranC wrote: »
    I

    Clearly it would be ridiculous to stop and search people in say, D8, as a security measure for a football match in Ringsend. :)

    I'm just saying that these security measures are not for just one single event (visit of the queen), but are for multiple events all within a short space of time. So, rather than having multiple areas secured for each event, they are just doing it in bulk, to save manpower and time.


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    #81
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    CiaranC wrote: »
    So by that logic, the 2013 All-Ireland GAA final could be deemed "about to happen" and the Gardai could award themselves extended powers in the run-up to that event. What a load of nonsense, of course there is limitation on timeframe, why else would the text explicitly say "is taking or is about to take place". Its clearly to limit the timeframe that Gardai can use these extra powers, otherwise they could just use them whenever they like. Its totally disingenous to suggest otherwise, and you know it.

    Is the 2013 All Ireland Final about to take place ? Further, you know the situations are entirely not comparable. The Queen is due to arrive next week.You are trying to be facetious in an attempt to shirk the fact that you have been incorrect in your entire proposition.

    The only concievable limitation would be that of "reasonableness", and that is essentially part of the legislation where the unrestrictive limitation of "about to occur" is broad and open ended.

    As I have said, the only limitation is broad and open-ended. I have said that in my most recent posts. There is no explicit timeframe, which is what you appear to be have been arguing from the start.


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    #82
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,270 ✭✭✭source


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Interesting stuff. Do you know what legislation that falls under foinse?

    Main power to stop a vehicle in a public place comes from Section 109 Road Traffic Act 1961-06. Another power comes from Section 8 Criminal Law Act 1976.


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    #83
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Het-field wrote:
    As I have said, the only limitation is broad and open-ended.
    Ok, whatever you say.
    There is nothing in that clause which could possibly be interperted as placing restrictions on the timeframe for such an event.


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    #84
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Ok, whatever you say
    Fine. Criticise the manner in which I have stated the position.

    I admit my use of language was sloppy, but it doesnt detract from that fact that you are claiming that the Gardai are using these powers excessively, even though there is no "explicit" time limitation, beyond the broad, and open-ended reference to events "about to take place".

    Dont forget, the only reason I took you up on this was because you stated
    CiaranC wrote: »
    Of course there is a difference, those are "events" that last a few hours in a fixed location


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    #85
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Het-Field wrote: »
    Fine. Criticise the manner in which I have stated the position.

    I admit my use of language was sloppy, but it doesnt detract from that fact that you are claiming that the Gardai are using these powers excessively, even though there is no "explicit" time limitation.
    I never claimed there was an explicit time limitation, stop putting words in my mouth. I said this legislation is aimed at a given event, which attracts a crowd, in a given location. All of which an extended state visit is not. Therefore it is not suitable to allow Gardai extra powers all over the city for an extended period. A simple statement.


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    #86
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    CiaranC wrote: »
    I never claimed there was an explicit time limitation, stop putting words in my mouth. I said this legislation is aimed at a given event, which attracts a crowd, in a given location. All of which an extended state visit is not. Therefore it is not suitable to allow Gardai extra powers all over the city for an extended period. A simple statement.

    You stated
    CiaranC wrote: »
    Of course there is a difference, those are "events" that last a few hours in a fixed location

    That is not reflective of the legislation. At no point is there a statement that such legislation exclusively governs "events that last a few hours".

    I admit I was somewhat sloppy in my use of language, but you are wrong in that post.


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    #87
    Newbie_2009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭Newbie_2009


    Will the Secret Service and the Royal Protection Officers be granted some sort of Diplomatic Immunity for the forthcoming state visits or will they be subject to the same laws as the guards and everybody else.


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    #88
    Contra Proferentem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭Contra Proferentem


    Not one of my better contributions, but if there's anything I've so far learned in my studies its that the state will subvert the law when it feels like it.

    In most cases the law only applies to us plebs, and not the Windsors, Drumms, Fitzpatricks, and Aherns of this world.


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    #89
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Please tell me how this is any different from the restrictions put in place for Slane, electric picnic, oxegen, Punchestown races or Galway races to name but a few.


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    #90
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Please tell me how this is any different from the restrictions put in place for Slane
    Do the Gardai carry out random stop and searches on the residents of Slane village when the concert is on?


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    #91
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Do the Gardai carry out random stop and searches on the residents of Slane village when the concert is on?

    No, because the concert itself is not in the village, and the VIPs (or artists here) do not have to get there via the village.


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