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Queen's Visit Q&A Megamerge

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    #32
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Seems a bit of a stretch to me, clearly the spirit of the legislation is not designed to lock down an entire city over the course of a week.
    They are not locking down any part of the city other than An Gairdín Cuimhneacháin


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    #33
    zil
    Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭zil


    Paulw wrote: »
    You can refuse to be searched, but they can then escort you from the secure area. That's my understanding from the wording of the law.

    So if I'm walking down college green on my way to lunch and get asked to be searched and refuse I'm going to be escorted a mile away (or wherever the closest non "event" area is)?

    Bit off topic but does anyone know the legality of video taping gardai when they're working / questioning you?


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    #34
    dj_
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭dj_


    zil wrote: »
    Bit off topic but does anyone the legality of video taping gardai when they're working / questioning you?

    Don't know the law on this but I have seen a few videos of the guards in action and they just seem to want the camera a good distance away (so that it isn't interfering with their work).


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    #35
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    zil wrote: »
    So if I'm walking down college green on my way to lunch and get asked to be searched and refuse I'm going to be escorted a mile away (or wherever the closest non "event" area is)?

    Bit off topic but does anyone know the legality of video taping gardai when they're working / questioning you?

    Yes, they can escort you outside the area.

    Yeah, it is legal to record them as long as you do not interfere with them working.


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    #36
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Apparently in Dublin and Cork there have been mandatory searches of houses on the Queens route. How can the Gardai justify these actions.

    IMO there seems to be a breach of:

    Art 40.5 - Inviolability of the Dwelling
    Art 40.3 & Art 43 - Property

    What do others think?

    (I would like to keep this discussion strictly based on legal principles if thats ok with Mods)


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    #37
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,362 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Apparently ....

    What's the source for this information?

    Can you provide more details, did the Gardai arrive on someone's doorstep without a warrant and demand to be allowed in to search the property?


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    #38
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    coylemj wrote: »
    What's the source for this information?

    Can you provide more details, did the Gardai arrive on someone's doorstep without a warrant and demand to be allowed in to search the property?

    I have no source. its what is being said on After Hours and people claimed this was happening on 96FM in Cork also.


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    #39
    Winty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    is the public safety act 1928 a reason


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    #40
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,362 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    You want a legal discussion on something that's being kicked around on After Hours and which is 'claimed' to be happening on a local radio station?

    That's like calling for a public inquiry based on something said in a phone call to Joe Duffy!


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    #41
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,362 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    steve9859 wrote: »
    The mandatory search is nonsense I think unless they think the occupier is a security risk and then surely they would be entitled to search anyway

    No, they'd still need a search warrant.


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    #42
    234
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    Well it will depend on the legislation that they are using to affect the searches. I don't think any claim of a common law power would stand up to scrutiny. Legislation that allowed searches in situations such as these would probably be porportional.


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    #43
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,362 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    234 wrote: »
    Well it will depend on the legislation that they are using to affect the searches. I don't think any claim of a common law power would stand up to scrutiny. Legislation that allowed searches in situations such as these would probably be porportional.

    Who defines the level (of the importance of the visitor) above which the searches are allowed - if Jedward visited Cork on a victory tour (God help us!), would the cops be allowed to search property without a warrant?

    Ridiculous comparison I accept but there has to be a threshold which I think would be impossible to define. That's if such legislation exits.


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    #44
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    it's the whole IFSC,

    So they really are going to take her up to Monto?


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    #45
    234
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    I'm not sure it would be impossible to define. You just put in as good a definition as you can and restrcit the choice to some very senior gardai in consultaiton with the minister for justice, foreign affairs and the taoiseach. Restrict it to occasions o visiting foreign dignitaries where the aforesaid people think it raises sufficiently serious security concerns.


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    #46
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056246043


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    #47
    Hootanany
    Registered Users Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    So they really are going to take her up to Monto?

    Thats disgusting :D


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    #48
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Paulw wrote: »
    Yes, they can escort you outside the area.

    What if you're going from place A in the area to Place B in the area? especially if place B is your home?


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    #49
    Resend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Resend


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Apparently in Dublin and Cork there have been mandatory searches of houses on the Queens route. How can the Gardai justify these actions.

    IMO there seems to be a breach of:

    Art 40.5 - Inviolability of the Dwelling
    Art 40.3 & Art 43 - Property

    What do others think?

    (I would like to keep this discussion strictly based on legal principles if thats ok with Mods)
    cashel too I heard


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    #50
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    It comes under section 30 of the offences against the state act.
    30.—(1) A member of the Gárda Síochána (if he is not in uniform on production of his identification card if demanded) may without warrant stop, search, interrogate, and arrest any person, or do any one or more of those things in respect of any person, whom he suspects of having committed or being about to commit or being or having been concerned in the commission of an offence under any section or sub-section of this Act or an offence which is for the time being a scheduled offence for the purposes of Part V of this Act or whom he suspects of carrying a document relating to the commission or intended commission of any such offence as aforesaid or whom he suspects of being in possession of information relating to the commission or intended commission of any such offence as aforesaid.

    The threat to the Queen is coming from the subversive organisations and is very real, they have issued statements, so a Garda is well within his rights to use the above.

    The act was set up along with the special criminal court to deal with these groups. They are draconian but on the other hand these groups were/are a real threat to the state, they were well armed and didnt/dont recognise legitimacy of the irish gov. This threat still exists.


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    #51
    234
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    Resend wrote: »
    cashel too I heard
    Hogzy wrote: »
    Apparently in Dublin and Cork there have been mandatory searches of houses on the Queens route.
    Oh God, I can already hear the Joe Duffy listeners complaining.


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    #52
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Hootanany wrote: »
    Thats disgusting :D

    Even the Queen of England needs love (but she's gotta pay).

    Besides, her great great great granny went there (so the song goes).


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    #53
    zil
    Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭zil


    skelliser wrote: »
    It comes under section 30 of the offences against the state act.



    The threat to the Queen is coming from the subversive organisations and is very real, they have issued statements, so a Garda is well within his rights to use the above.

    So walking down a street makes you a suspect of a crime now? According to that quote the guards have to suspect you of doing something to be able to stop you.


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    #54
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    zil wrote: »
    So walking down a street makes you a suspect of a crime now? According to that quote the guards have to suspect you of doing something to be able to stop you.

    if a Garda forms the opinion then yes but you need to read my post again and see why this is so.

    Remember the old IRA, the provos and now the dissidents dont exactly were uniforms and more importantly do not/did not recognise this state.


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    #55
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    Also under the act afaik you can be:

    interned without trial
    trial before a judge with no jury
    be convicted of membership of a subversive organisation on the word of a garda superintendant alone.


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    #56
    murrayp4
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    S30 OASA permits a search only where the Garda has formed the opinion a person is involved in the commission of an offence under the act
    This does not permit stop and search solely on the grounds of a person being in a certain area, so I don't think its a decent basis for what the Gardaí seem to be proposing here.


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    #57
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    This smacks of the same thing that happened when Shergar and Don Tidy went missing. What was the legal basis for those searches back then?


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    #58
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    This is getting a bit silly. The majority of powers being exercised by the Gardaí will be under Section 21 and 22 of the Public Order Act 1994. They are no different to the powers used at any major event, particularly large concerts and big GAA games. The only difference is they have moved the barriers further out than usual and there is more than one area being protected. Anyone going to Oxegen this year will find similar restrictions in place.

    If A Garda has particular concerns about an individual he may use his powers under the Offences Against the State Act. These include the power to search, arrest and detain for up to 3 days. This would only be used in the case of someone involved in, or suspected of involvement in, acts of terrorism or violence.

    Also, afaik, you cannot be convicted on the word of a Superintendent alone. There must be supporting evidence.


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    #59
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    This is getting a bit silly. The majority of powers being exercised by the Gardaí will be under Section 21 and 22 of the Public Order Act 1994. They are no different to the powers used at any major event, particularly large concerts and big GAA games. The only difference is they have moved the barriers further out than usual and there is more than one area being protected. Anyone going to Oxegen this year will find similar restrictions in place.
    Of course there is a difference, those are "events" that last a few hours in a fixed location. Section 22 is even titled "Surrender and seizure of intoxicating liquor, etc.". This legislation is not designed or intended to control the population of entire cities for days on end.


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    #60
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Of course there is a difference, those are "events" that last a few hours in a fixed location. Section 22 is even titled "Surrender and seizure of intoxicating liquor, etc.". This legislation is not designed or intended to control the population of entire cities for days on end.

    Where in the 1994 Act is there any reference to a limitation on the timeframe for what constitutes a "public event" ?


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    #61
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Het-Field wrote: »
    Where in the 1994 Act is there any reference to a limitation on the timeframe for what constitutes a "public event" ?

    Its implied in the text.

    ...If it appears to a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of superintendent that it is necessary in the interests of safety or for the purpose of preserving order to restrict the access of persons to a place where an event is taking or is about to take place which attracts, or is likely to attract, a large assembly of persons...

    How anyone could interpret that to apply to stop and search powers several days before and miles away from where the queen of England passes by is beyond me.


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