Queen's Visit Q&A Megamerge

Carawaystick

The gardaí are saying that "For security reasons, there will be periodic searches of pedestrians and vehicles by members of An Garda Síochána at key locations." in Dublin when the queen of England is here.

What are the laws allowing such an invasion of privacy?

Between the Govt taking your savings and now stopping and searching you on the street without reason, it seems the top of a slippery slope.

johnnyskeleton

It is somewhat dubious and they can be certainly challenged on it.

One possible power is under section 21 of the Public Order Act:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0021.html#sec21

I suppose that they could also say that they suspect anyone who is at the event of attempting to commit an offence against the state:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1939/en/act/pub/0013/sec0030.html#sec30

And of course if you consent to such a search then it is permitted (in the same way that if a random person walked up to you on the street asked to search you and you agreed to it then there would be no problem).

Wolfe Tone

If you say no can you be arrested?

Carawaystick

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I
I suppose that they could also say that they suspect anyone who is at the event of attempting to commit an offence against the state:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1939/en/act/pub/0013/sec0030.html#sec30

where would I find an up to date schedule of special criminal court offences? I know tax dodging has been elevated to the ranks, thanks to Slab.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

And of course if you consent to such a search then it is permitted (in the same way that if a random person walked up to you on the street asked to search you and you agreed to it then there would be no problem).

If I refuse unless a reason is given, is this valid? I'd refuse anyway

MagicSean

Its likely the public order act will be used and each public appearance will be designated an event for the purpose of the act. This gives gardai a greater range of powers than usual including power to restrict access to an area. Section 22 also gives a power of search for people in the vicinity of the event.

naoise80

Carawaystick wrote: »

If I refuse unless a reason is given, is this valid? I'd refuse anyway

How do you ever manage to get on a flight?

usernamegoes

Do we have any SC decisions on the constitutional issues of 'periodic searches' of persons. Surely, a attending an event does not give rise to a cause to search under any legislation.

FreudianSlippers

Gillan and Quinton v. The United Kingdom [2010] ECHR 28 is interesting on this type of point... the UK Terrorism Laws are very different than anything we have here, but the ruling sows that these types of powers (found in the Terrorism Act in the UK) were in breach of human rights (Art 5 & 8 IIRC).

MagicSean

usernamegoes wrote: »

Do we have any SC decisions on the constitutional issues of 'periodic searches' of persons. Surely, a attending an event does not give rise to a cause to search under any legislation.

Section 22 of the POA

2.—(1) Where in relation to an event—


(a) a barrier has been erected under section 21 and it appears to a member of the Garda Síochána that a person on foot or in a vehicle is seeking to cross or pass the barrier, or has crossed or passed the barrier, for the purpose of going to the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place, or


(b) it appears to a member of the Garda Síochána that a person is about to enter, or has entered, the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place,


and the person has, or the member of the Garda Síochána suspects with reasonable cause that the person has, in his possession—


(i) any intoxicating liquor, or


(ii) any disposable container, or


(iii) any other article which, having regard to the circumstances or the nature of the event, could be used to cause injury,


the member may exercise any one or more of the following powers—


(I) search or cause to be searched that person or any vehicle in or on which he may be in order to ascertain whether he has with him any such liquor, container or other article,


(II) refuse to allow that person to proceed to the event or to proceed further, as the case may be, unless that person surrenders permanently to a member of the Garda Síochána as directed by the member such liquor, container or other article.


(2) Where a member of the Garda Síochána refuses to allow a person to proceed to the event or to proceed further by virtue of subsection (1) (II) and the person does not surrender the alcoholic liquor, disposable container or other article concerned, the member may require the person to leave the vicinity in an orderly and peaceful manner as directed by the member.


(3) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, fails to comply with a requirement under subsection (2) shall be guilty of an offence.


(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500.

dj_

That's fine for an event but unless I am mistaken they are going to be searching people in the run up to the visit too.

Does the whole week before count as the event too?

Paulw

I think they said that they will be closing off areas, so within that, I guess that they can consider this the event area, so the powers would apply.

dj_

Paulw wrote: »

I think they said that they will be closing off areas, so within that, I guess that they can consider this the event area, so the powers would apply.

I guess that makes sense. Loads of Guards around Cork yesterday and today and I heard off-hand they were searching people here too. And I don't think any areas have been closed off yet.

MagicSean

dj_ wrote: »

That's fine for an event but unless I am mistaken they are going to be searching people in the run up to the visit too.

Does the whole week before count as the event too?

Yes the "event" can start before the actual gig. For example Slane concert starts at 12 on Saturday but the barriers are erected from Friday evening.

CiaranC

This is crazy stuff. So is it legal to refuse a search or not? Can I just say "no thanks" and head off in the opposite direction?

Wolfe Tone

Another thing what constitutes a strip search? If they ask you to remove your shoes, or does it have to be clothing, socks for instance?

I know when they do/did stop and search up north they often get you to take off your shoes.

PaudyW

yeah does anyone know what happens if you refuse search, not really happy with visit or paying for it, wont be going to it but was wondering if you be arrested or just moved along

MagicSean

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Another thing what constitutes a strip search? If they ask you to remove your shoes, or does it have to be clothing, socks for instance?

I know when they do/did stop and search up north they often get you to take off your shoes.

I think shoes, hats, coats, scarves and gloves would be the extent of how far it would go without returning you to the station.

Paulw

CiaranC wrote: »

This is crazy stuff. So is it legal to refuse a search or not? Can I just say "no thanks" and head off in the opposite direction?

You can refuse to be searched, but they can then escort you from the secure area. That's my understanding from the wording of the law.

FreudianSlippers

The secure area is outlined in today's Irish Times I believe.

CiaranC

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The secure area is outlined in today's Irish Times I believe.

Let me guess, it extends from the GPO to the west side of Connemara

MagicSean

CiaranC wrote: »

Let me guess, it extends from the GPO to the west side of Connemara

I think it can only extend a mile from where she will be.

FreudianSlippers

CiaranC wrote: »

Let me guess, it extends from the GPO to the west side of Connemara

It's not too bad IIRC - it's the whole IFSC, down parnell street, down OCS, then West along the North Quays into the Phoenix Park, down by Heuston, Temple Bar, Trinity, etc.

Probably missing a bit but I only caught a glance at the picture they had this morning.

Dyr

Sound like some of the legislation that our glorious leaders snuck in when the very existence of the state (lol) was under threat from subversives. Funny how that stuff never gets repealed

FreudianSlippers

Bambi wrote: »

Sound like some of the legislation that our glorious leaders snuck in when the very existence of the state (lol) was under threat from subversives. Funny how that stuff never gets repealed

Could just be common law ... don't know though.

MagicSean

Bambi wrote: »

Sound like some of the legislation that our glorious leaders snuck in when the very existence of the state (lol) was under threat from subversives. Funny how that stuff never gets repealed

It's the public order act. It's been in existence for a long time and is used at every big concert, sports event and major event.

murrayp4

Does anyone know what legislation/common law is being used to justify these searches. It sounds like it may be contrary to the principal proportionality...
Usually the POA requires the Garda to have a reasonable suspicion that a person is carrying a scheduled object before a search can be legally carried out.

Also..what in law is a 'secure zone', as it seems to be used as a justification for these searches

MagicSean

murrayp4 wrote: »

Does anyone know what legislation/common law is being used to justify these searches. It sounds like it may be contrary to the principal proportionality...

That depends. Have you read the thread?

CiaranC

Heres the definition of "event" in Section 21, referred to in section 22, above

21.—(1) If it appears to a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of superintendent that it is necessary in the interests of safety or for the purpose of preserving order to restrict the access of persons to a place where an event is taking or is about to take place which attracts, or is likely to attract, a large assembly of persons (in this Part referred to as the “event”), he may authorise any member of the Garda Síochána to erect or cause to be erected a barrier or a series of barriers on any road, street, lane, alley or other means of access to such a place in a position not more than one mile therefrom for the purpose of regulating the access of persons or vehicles thereto.

Seems to me this only allows them set up where the Queen of England is and where there is also a crowd at any given time. It doesnt give carte blanche to lock down the city, they must be using some anti-terrorism legislation.

MagicSean

CiaranC wrote: »

Heres the definition of "event" in Section 21, referred to in section 22, above


Seems to me this only allows them set up where the Queen of England is and where there is also a crowd at any given time. It doesnt give carte blanche to lock down the city, they must be using some anti-terrorism legislation.

A mile is a long distance.

Paulw

CiaranC wrote: »

Seems to me this only allows them set up where the Queen of England is and where there is also a crowd at any given time. It doesnt give carte blanche to lock down the city, they must be using some anti-terrorism legislation.

They can close down all areas where the Queen will be, and where a crowd may assemble. So, if she goes from the Phoenix Park to the convention centre, they can close down all roads in between and make that whole area a designated event area, and the surrounding area up to a mile away.

From your quoted text - "a place where an event is taking or is about to take place"

CiaranC

Seems a bit of a stretch to me, clearly the spirit of the legislation is not designed to lock down an entire city over the course of a week.

FreudianSlippers

CiaranC wrote: »

Seems a bit of a stretch to me, clearly the spirit of the legislation is not designed to lock down an entire city over the course of a week.

They are not locking down any part of the city other than An Gairdín Cuimhneacháin

zil

Paulw wrote: »

You can refuse to be searched, but they can then escort you from the secure area. That's my understanding from the wording of the law.

So if I'm walking down college green on my way to lunch and get asked to be searched and refuse I'm going to be escorted a mile away (or wherever the closest non "event" area is)?

Bit off topic but does anyone know the legality of video taping gardai when they're working / questioning you?

dj_

zil wrote: »

Bit off topic but does anyone the legality of video taping gardai when they're working / questioning you?

Don't know the law on this but I have seen a few videos of the guards in action and they just seem to want the camera a good distance away (so that it isn't interfering with their work).

Paulw

zil wrote: »

So if I'm walking down college green on my way to lunch and get asked to be searched and refuse I'm going to be escorted a mile away (or wherever the closest non "event" area is)?

Bit off topic but does anyone know the legality of video taping gardai when they're working / questioning you?

Yes, they can escort you outside the area.

Yeah, it is legal to record them as long as you do not interfere with them working.

Hogzy

Apparently in Dublin and Cork there have been mandatory searches of houses on the Queens route. How can the Gardai justify these actions.

IMO there seems to be a breach of:

Art 40.5 - Inviolability of the Dwelling
Art 40.3 & Art 43 - Property

What do others think?

(I would like to keep this discussion strictly based on legal principles if thats ok with Mods)

coylemj

Hogzy wrote: »

Apparently ....

What's the source for this information?

Can you provide more details, did the Gardai arrive on someone's doorstep without a warrant and demand to be allowed in to search the property?

Hogzy

coylemj wrote: »

What's the source for this information?

Can you provide more details, did the Gardai arrive on someone's doorstep without a warrant and demand to be allowed in to search the property?

I have no source. its what is being said on After Hours and people claimed this was happening on 96FM in Cork also.

Winty

is the public safety act 1928 a reason

coylemj

You want a legal discussion on something that's being kicked around on After Hours and which is 'claimed' to be happening on a local radio station?

That's like calling for a public inquiry based on something said in a phone call to Joe Duffy!

coylemj

steve9859 wrote: »

The mandatory search is nonsense I think unless they think the occupier is a security risk and then surely they would be entitled to search anyway

No, they'd still need a search warrant.

234

Well it will depend on the legislation that they are using to affect the searches. I don't think any claim of a common law power would stand up to scrutiny. Legislation that allowed searches in situations such as these would probably be porportional.

coylemj

234 wrote: »

Well it will depend on the legislation that they are using to affect the searches. I don't think any claim of a common law power would stand up to scrutiny. Legislation that allowed searches in situations such as these would probably be porportional.

Who defines the level (of the importance of the visitor) above which the searches are allowed - if Jedward visited Cork on a victory tour (God help us!), would the cops be allowed to search property without a warrant?

Ridiculous comparison I accept but there has to be a threshold which I think would be impossible to define. That's if such legislation exits.

johnnyskeleton

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

it's the whole IFSC,

So they really are going to take her up to Monto?

234

I'm not sure it would be impossible to define. You just put in as good a definition as you can and restrcit the choice to some very senior gardai in consultaiton with the minister for justice, foreign affairs and the taoiseach. Restrict it to occasions o visiting foreign dignitaries where the aforesaid people think it raises sufficiently serious security concerns.

Our man in Havana

See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056246043

Hootanany

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So they really are going to take her up to Monto?

Thats disgusting

Carawaystick

Paulw wrote: »

Yes, they can escort you outside the area.

What if you're going from place A in the area to Place B in the area? especially if place B is your home?

Resend

Hogzy wrote: »

Apparently in Dublin and Cork there have been mandatory searches of houses on the Queens route. How can the Gardai justify these actions.

IMO there seems to be a breach of:

Art 40.5 - Inviolability of the Dwelling
Art 40.3 & Art 43 - Property

What do others think?

(I would like to keep this discussion strictly based on legal principles if thats ok with Mods)

cashel too I heard

skelliser

It comes under section 30 of the offences against the state act.

30.—(1) A member of the Gárda Síochána (if he is not in uniform on production of his identification card if demanded) may without warrant stop, search, interrogate, and arrest any person, or do any one or more of those things in respect of any person, whom he suspects of having committed or being about to commit or being or having been concerned in the commission of an offence under any section or sub-section of this Act or an offence which is for the time being a scheduled offence for the purposes of Part V of this Act or whom he suspects of carrying a document relating to the commission or intended commission of any such offence as aforesaid or whom he suspects of being in possession of information relating to the commission or intended commission of any such offence as aforesaid.

The threat to the Queen is coming from the subversive organisations and is very real, they have issued statements, so a Garda is well within his rights to use the above.

The act was set up along with the special criminal court to deal with these groups. They are draconian but on the other hand these groups were/are a real threat to the state, they were well armed and didnt/dont recognise legitimacy of the irish gov. This threat still exists.

234

Resend wrote: »

cashel too I heard

Hogzy wrote: »

Apparently in Dublin and Cork there have been mandatory searches of houses on the Queens route.

Oh God, I can already hear the Joe Duffy listeners complaining.