Feminists

WesternNight

MadameCholet wrote: »

.

I'll tell you how a man might support feminism in his own life and household.

Encourage his daughters to be doctors not nurses

I think I understand what you mean by this, but it reads as if you expect men to discourage their daughters from becoming nurses and encourage them to become doctors instead. I can only assume that that's not what you meant, because that not only undermines the choices of these hypothetical daughters, but the nursing profession in general.

Sort of on that point, I don't think it's a good idea to encourage children to pursue particular careers purely because you think they should take advantage of the opportunities that previous generations of women didn't have. Being a doctor isn't 'better' than being a nurse, they're two different professions. Encouraging children to choose medicine over nursing purely on principle, for example, doesn't do anything but maintain that one is superior over the other.

It's like those people who look down on women who choose to stay at home with their children because they think that should be out having a career because people have fought for the opportunity to have one. They forget that it's about having the *opportunity* to have a career, not an *obligation* to have one.

Ambersky

Thanks for the link JajaD, I havent seen that video before but nice little illustration of the confusion around feminism.
It might be worth looking at this definition again, its a Wiki one but its not bad

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women..... Feminists—that is, persons practicing feminism—may be persons of either sex.

I would like to see more agreement on the general principal as stated above.
I think its a simple principle, dont see the problem, but I know looking for womens rights has never been popular no matter how basic the issues being addressed actually were.
If its never been popular to be a feminist, if popular media has always lampooned feminists even when just looking for the vote, why should feminists bother trying to be respectable and reasonable model activists.
No matter how feminists behave they get slated for being the ones who gave it a bad name. Who were the ones who gave it a good name?
How much patience do you need whille looking for agreement from "general society" that women are indeed equal and should be treated as such.

Blowfish

MadameCholet wrote: »

Blowfish, you don't sound harsh, but you do sound a little obtuse if you think that it can be argued that men don't enjoy a privileged position in society. Of course they do. How anybody could seriously argue with that is ludicrous.

I have not "undermined" any of the arguments for equality. FAR from it. I have identified some of the reasons why Feminism is still unfortunately a dirty word, and why women still fear the word feminism.

There can be no logical argument against equality. But yet here we are still in need of equality which is a long, long way off. Why is that then if its not down to the half of society which enjoys its privileged position and is not going to let it go easily.

It seems like you are saying I didn't ask nicely enough. Women have to ask men for equality, and yet you say there is no game to play? ha ha. It's almost funny.

Ok, let me put it another way by using an example. As it stands currently, father's rights are lacking in Ireland.

If I were to state that the reason for the imbalance is because women have a deep seated belief that they are simply superior at looking after children and that men just aren't very good at it, would you be happy with this or likely to support the cause of father's rights?

Overall, it's nothing to do with 'asking nicely', but everything to do with the fact that campaigning for equality while taking pot shots at one of the sides comes across as hypocritical.

If I felt all feminists had the same viewpoints as those you expressed in your previous post, I would in no way support feminism. Thankfully I don't believe this is the case and that the core of feminism is about eliminating stereotypes/generalisations of gender and any influence they have, hence would consider myself a feminist. And yes, I'm male.

Ambersky

Blowfish.
Sorry blowfish misread you there and put in an irrelevent post.
Deleted

MadameCholet

WesternNight wrote: »

I think I understand what you mean by this, but it reads as if you expect men to discourage their daughters from becoming nurses and encourage them to become doctors instead. I can only assume that that's not what you meant, because that not only undermines the choices of these hypothetical daughters, but the nursing profession in general.

Sort of on that point, I don't think it's a good idea to encourage children to pursue particular careers purely because you think they should take advantage of the opportunities that previous generations of women didn't have. Being a doctor isn't 'better' than being a nurse, they're two different professions. Encouraging children to choose medicine over nursing purely on principle, for example, doesn't do anything but maintain that one is superior over the other.

It's like those people who look down on women who choose to stay at home with their children because they think that should be out having a career because people have fought for the opportunity to have one. They forget that it's about having the *opportunity* to have a career, not an *obligation* to have one.

That was an extremely literal interpretation of my post. Perhaps being a doctor is not 'better' than being a nurse, but it is tradionally more female, so parents should beward of saying to their daughters 'oh you love anatomy and physiology you ought to be a nurse' on autopilot, and without thinking if a doctor might not be better fit. Being a doctor is also of course better paid! and one of the main issues of feminism must surely be that women are still routinely paid less than men both for doing the same thing and also paid less because they do more part-time work and more unskilled 'menial' work such as being a carer.

I am not a hypocrite on this issue. If my son wanted to be a nurse I certainly wouldn't dissuade him. The point is not to be blinkered and to allow generations of conditioning prevent me from encouraging a daughter to aim for the tradionally male roles.

Stheno

Iirc women now make up a majority of medical students which in itself has implications for how the HSE/NHS type organisations manage their services.

MadameCholet

Blowfish wrote: »

Ok, let me put it another way by using an example. As it stands currently, father's rights are lacking in Ireland.

If I were to state that the reason for the imbalance is because women have a deep seated belief that they are simply superior at looking after children and that men just aren't very good at it, would you be happy with this or likely to support the cause of father's rights?

Overall, it's nothing to do with 'asking nicely', but everything to do with the fact that campaigning for equality while taking pot shots at one of the sides comes across as hypocritical.

If I felt all feminists had the same viewpoints as those you expressed in your previous post, I would in no way support feminism. Thankfully I don't believe this is the case and that the core of feminism is about eliminating stereotypes/generalisations of gender and any influence they have, hence would consider myself a feminist. And yes, I'm male.

The difference between us is that that I am in no way seeking to undermine the Fathers' movement. I understand the issues and they are very complex.

My views are not in any way extreme. I want equality. I recognise that men are in a more privileged position in society. This is not a 'view'. That is an observation. If you refuse to acknowledge that men enjoy a privileged position in society then that is the same as saying there is no need for feminism. So to be frank, I don't think the feminists are crying out for your enrollment. You sound far more focussed on Fathers' rights which is entirely your prerogative.

I wonder why you find my views so unpalatable. Did I deliver them in too frank a manner? Without trying to soften them and present them in a way which is less 'offensive' to men?

Really I have said nothing controversial at all. I have said that women fear the label feminism. Tick, that's true. I've said that men are in a priveleged position in society, tick that's true. Look at the government, look at the CEOs, look at the pay divide, look at how maternity leave damages a woman's career, look at how employers think twice about employing a woman of childbearing age. Look at porn and look at the sex industry. Do they damage men or do they damage women? Look at the media and how it objecitifies women. Look at the pressure women are under to be thin and young, far far above and beyond the pressure men are under to be, I don't know, tall and washed. There are so many ways and most of them are absolutely insidious and go almost unnoticed in which men are in the position of entitlement.

If you can not acknowledge that men are in a privileged position in society, then there can be no point discussing feminism with you!! Maybe I could have a discussion about Fathers rights with you as 'see' that issue as it effects you.

You say that if you thought that all feminists shared my views you wouldn't support feminism. Do you? I thought you didn't believe in the need for it, what with men NOT enjoying a privileged position in society.

Again, my views are so moderate and so basic in a feminist sense (ie, I want equality, awareness of why we don't have equality, women's own fear of the label) that you must be very easily scared off.

Which leads me back to my first point really. Feminism is a women's issue. Men (such as yourself) either don't see the need for it, don't believe things are 'that bad' or are offended by feminists. I've clearly managed to offend you by doing nothing more than stating the obvious.

MadameCholet

Stheno wrote: »

MadameCholet, less of the sweeping gender generalisations please, they are not contributing anything positive.[/QUOTE

Huh?

What sweeping generalisations? Can you be specific. I have not made any 'sweeping generalisations'.

MadameCholet

Stheno wrote: »

Iirc women now make up a majority of medical students which in itself has implications for how the HSE/NHS type organisations manage their services.

And the reason for this is that they do better in the leaving cert and get more points. And yet, in this one area where women do well, there is talk about 'redressing the balance' and finding a system to weight male students' poorer results so that there are more male doctors. Why? Why is it a problem if most doctors are female?

Stheno

MadameCholet wrote: »

Stheno wrote: »

MadameCholet, less of the sweeping gender generalisations please, they are not contributing anything positive.[/QUOTE

Huh?

What sweeping generalisations? Can you be specific. I have not made any 'sweeping generalisations'.

As per section ten of the charter do not

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MadameCholet

Stheno wrote: »

MadameCholet wrote: »

As per section ten of the charter do not

I have not made any sweeping generalisation. I only just noticed that you are a moderator. I thought I was continuing a conversation. I didn't realise that when it comes to moderators one must not expect an answer to a reasonable question. Surely despite the fact that you are a moderator, if you could have answered the simple question, ie, what sweeping generalisations? it would have been more effective to tell me what the sweeping generalisations I made were?

I suppose you're gonna ban me or something. wow.

Count Duckula

MadameCholet wrote: »

And the reason for this is that they do better in the leaving cert and get more points. And yet, in this one area where women do well, there is talk about 'redressing the balance' and finding a system to weight male students' poorer results so that there are more male doctors. Why? Why is it a problem if most doctors are female?

Is there talk of redressing the balance or is there simply talk of finding out why the male students are doing so comparitively badly? I thought it was the latter, personally. Having almost all of the doctors being female poses the same problem as having all of the doctors being male; which, I'm sure, is something you'd agree with me on being a bad thing.

Also, women are not "routinely paid less for doing the same thing". I'd like to see your statistics for this, because frankly I think it's tosh. In modern Ireland (nay, modern Europe) given the laws in place I do not believe that women are being paid less to do the same job as a man.

I do agree that there is still a "glass ceiling" in place, and that women can struggle to reach the higher echelons of big business owing to their gender, which causes a pay discrepancy overall. This needs to be addressed. You also point out that women are doing more part-time work and the like, which contributes to an average pay divide. But, could this not in part be because some of those women want only part-time work? They may prefer working part-time and raising their children the rest of the time. Yes, I'm sure some feel it is their obligation, but others may actively enjoy the time with their offspring. As WesternNight said, the true success of feminism would be to provide women with the opportunity to have a career, not the obligation to have one.

Lastly, I think there is a certain amount that only time can solve. I know that sounds a cop out, but those in power (the Patriarchy, if you will) all tend to be of the older generation. Men who grew up believing that men owned the power and men ruled the world. But those of my generation and younger have grown up in the world after first and second wave feminism - in a world of far more equality in education. I don't ever remember being told that I was supeior to a woman, and I think you'd be startled by the number of my male peers who feel the same way. Who would, in a sense, be feminists. As this generation grows up, with the girls outperforming the boys in school, with the boys themselves not feeling inherently "superior" to their female peers, I think we'll see changes. Perhaps that's naive of me, but I can't see my male peers suddenly deciding that, actually, they're going to keep the women down to preserve their own advantages - the idea would be abhorrent to them, if it even occured at all. They'd be as likely to suddenly dislike blondes. And I certainly don't see my female peers taking their educational superiority and suddenly deciding that it counts for nought.

metrovelvet

MadameCholet wrote: »

And the reason for this is that they do better in the leaving cert and get more points. And yet, in this one area where women do well, there is talk about 'redressing the balance' and finding a system to weight male students' poorer results so that there are more male doctors. Why? Why is it a problem if most doctors are female?

There is a problem if destinies are placed on the results of ONE exam on ONE day.

Stupid system.

Problem with the majority of medics being female. MATERNITY LEAVE AND SLEEP DEPRIVED SURGEONS.

No thanks. Already a GP shortage as it is.

Blowfish

MadameCholet wrote:

You say that if you thought that all feminists shared my views you wouldn't support feminism. Do you? I thought you didn't believe in the need for it

I have not come even close to stating anything like this.

MadameCholet wrote:

The difference between us is that that I am in no way seeking to undermine the Fathers' movement. I understand the issues and they are very complex.

No, but you are unintentionally expressing the exact type of views that undermine the feminist movement.

Quite simply, how can you possibly support equality of the sexes, while also having derogatory views of one of them such as the below:

MadameCholet wrote:

Feminism is not an issue for most men because they enjoy their privileged status of course....They will enjoy the perks of being a man and make jokes about making sandwiches when faced with a logical argument they have no immediate answer for.

MadameCholet wrote:

Men's sense of entitlement is so deeply entrenched

MadameCholet wrote:

Men don't tend to warm to women who speak out about the injustices between the sexes.

MadameCholet wrote:

Men (such as yourself) either don't see the need for it, don't believe things are 'that bad' or are offended by feminists.

For us to have true equality, both sides, men and women, need to drop any and all preconceptions/generalisations/stereotypes like the above and just treat people as people.

MadameCholet

Count Duckula wrote: »

Is there talk of redressing the balance or is there simply talk of finding out why the male students are doing so comparitively badly? I thought it was the latter, personally. Having almost all of the doctors being female poses the same problem as having all of the doctors being male; which, I'm sure, is something you'd agree with me on being a bad thing.

Also, women are not "routinely paid less for doing the same thing". I'd like to see your statistics for this, because frankly I think it's tosh. In modern Ireland (nay, modern Europe) given the laws in place I do not believe that women are being paid less to do the same job as a man.

I do agree that there is still a "glass ceiling" in place, and that women can struggle to reach the higher echelons of big business owing to their gender, which causes a pay discrepancy overall. This needs to be addressed. You also point out that women are doing more part-time work and the like, which contributes to an average pay divide. But, could this not in part be because some of those women want only part-time work? They may prefer working part-time and raising their children the rest of the time. Yes, I'm sure some feel it is their obligation, but others may actively enjoy the time with their offspring. As WesternNight said, the true success of feminism would be to provide women with the opportunity to have a career, not the obligation to have one.

Lastly, I think there is a certain amount that only time can solve. I know that sounds a cop out, but those in power (the Patriarchy, if you will) all tend to be of the older generation. Men who grew up believing that men owned the power and men ruled the world. But those of my generation and younger have grown up in the world after first and second wave feminism - in a world of far more equality in education. I don't ever remember being told that I was supeior to a woman, and I think you'd be startled by the number of my male peers who feel the same way. Who would, in a sense, be feminists. As this generation grows up, with the girls outperforming the boys in school, with the boys themselves not feeling inherently "superior" to their female peers, I think we'll see changes. Perhaps that's naive of me, but I can't see my male peers suddenly deciding that, actually, they're going to keep the women down to preserve their own advantages - the idea would be abhorrent to them, if it even occured at all. They'd be as likely to suddenly dislike blondes. And I certainly don't see my female peers taking their educational superiority and suddenly deciding that it counts for nought.

In some fields there is a very formal pay structure, civil service for example. But in a lot of places a bank, an insurance company, a man will be paid more, a woman will not be given the same opportunities unless she pushes for them. A man will be offered them in a more routine sort of way. I don't want to out myself but I have experience of working in a sector where there is no formal pay structure. I had typewriters put on my desk because I was a woman. The employer's mantra is 'you're worth what somebody is prepared to pay you'. With that attitude, women will be paid less.

It is not a question of singling out any one individual man and berating him for the inequities. This is not a criticism of you or your peers per se. It is not as though each and every man is out there willfully taking advantage of the situation to their sisters' detriment.

I think my brothers and my father and my friends' husbands are 'good men' but that doesn't mean that they don't unconsciously 'enjoy' the benefits of being a man. (There are occasionally some disadvantages as well and that would tie back in with that poster who mentioned Fathers' rights).

I do agree with you about the 'older man' issue. My father is a 'good man' but he is definitely sexist. So, I don't think that the two are exclusive. I can believe there is some overlap! but........... I am clear about what the issues are.

Maternity Leave is a mixed blessing. I believe that that is a double-edged sword. I availed of it twice because hormones made me want to be with my children, but yeah it totally ****ed up my work situation. I asked the children's father to take the PAternity leave that he was entitled to but he wouldn't because it was culturally taboo in his work environment. It's not that he didn't want to take it, he was ashamed to and worried that it would damage hIs prospects. I believe some sort of enforced paternity leave or 'induced' paternity leave would go a LONG way towards helping women in the workplace. It'd be difficult at first, but eventually, employers would have no logical reason to discriminate against women of child bearing age, and women would get back into the work place quicker which would be better for them in a career sense. It might not be what they want though.

Ickle Magoo

MadameCholet wrote: »

I didn't realise that when it comes to moderators one must not expect an answer to a reasonable question.

Not dragging a thread off-topic by arguing with moderator instruction is a basic tenet of Boards in every forum. If you have any questions regarding moderator instruction then you PM the mod in question and request clarification that way, you can find the charter for this forum here and a guide to general Boards posting rules and etiquette here.

Lazy generalisations, particularly ones that start "Women...." or "Men...." and seek to speak for everyone in that gender just serves to inflame and annoy - giving a personal opinion is one thing, making sweeping statement about an entire gender is never going to be true and thus is completely pointless.

_________________

Can I also just remind everyone that this is the Ladies Lounge, primarily a place for the female posters of boards to discuss issues. If posters wish to argue where men feature in feminism, where they should feature in feminism, or what feminism should be from a male perspective, can they take it to the appropriate forum.

Many thanks.

WesternNight

metrovelvet wrote: »

Problem with the majority of medics being female. MATERNITY LEAVE AND SLEEP DEPRIVED SURGEONS.

But not every woman wants children or has children. Even if they did, what makes you think that they'll all be having children (and ergo sleep deprived..) at the same time so that no-one else will be available..?

And are you actually suggesting that men don't suffer sleep deprivation?

metrovelvet

WesternNight wrote: »

But not every woman wants children or has children. Even if they did, what makes you think that they'll all be having children (and ergo sleep deprived..) at the same time so that no-one else will be available..?

And are you actually suggesting that men don't suffer sleep deprivation?

Ok Im going to play the stupid semantic game of boards.ie AS A GENERAL RULE, the women carry the burden of childcare and that has not changes that much.

I know what its like to be sleep deprived and I wouldnt even go to a hairdresser who has a new baby let alone a doctor.

I cant take my son to the dentist unless I travel all the way to Dublin because the ONLY pediatric dentist in the county is on maternity leave.

Operating waiting lists are at an all time high and there is a GP shortage. You can stay pie in the sky if you want, but someone is going to have to do something to get some men in the field of medicine.

Stheno

MadameCholet wrote: »

And the reason for this is that they do better in the leaving cert and get more points. And yet, in this one area where women do well, there is talk about 'redressing the balance' and finding a system to weight male students' poorer results so that there are more male doctors. Why? Why is it a problem if most doctors are female?

Actually it's not just an Irish phenomenon, it's the same in the States and the UK. See :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5429181/Women-doctors-will-outnumber-men-within-a-decade-research.html

and

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/16/how-many-get-in/

Stheno

MadameCholet wrote: »

In some fields there is a very formal pay structure, civil service for example. But in a lot of places a bank, an insurance company, a man will be paid more, a woman will not be given the same opportunities unless she pushes for them. A man will be offered them in a more routine sort of way. I don't want to out myself but I have experience of working in a sector where there is no formal pay structure. I had typewriters put on my desk because I was a woman. The employer's mantra is 'you're worth what somebody is prepared to pay you'. With that attitude, women will be paid less.

I don't understand how you can state that, and I'm basing that on my personal experience, surely depending on your qualifications, skills and experience, you will be paid what you are worth?

sam34

metrovelvet wrote: »

Ok Im going to play the stupid semantic game of boards.ie AS A GENERAL RULE, the women carry the burden of childcare and that has not changes that much.

I know what its like to be sleep deprived and I wouldnt even go to a hairdresser who has a new baby let alone a doctor.

I cant take my son to the dentist unless I travel all the way to Dublin because the ONLY pediatric dentist in the county is on maternity leave.

Operating waiting lists are at an all time high and there is a GP shortage. You can stay pie in the sky if you want, but someone is going to have to do something to get some men in the field of medicine.

the main reason that doctors in this country are sleep deprived is not to do with being a parent, rather it is that they are forced to work shifts varying from 32 to 57 hours to cover the hospital at night and over weekends as many hospitals continue to ignore the working time directive.

having more male doctors wont change that.

Blowfish

metrovelvet wrote: »

I cant take my son to the dentist unless I travel all the way to Dublin because the ONLY pediatric dentist in the county is on maternity leave.

Operating waiting lists are at an all time high and there is a GP shortage. You can stay pie in the sky if you want, but someone is going to have to do something to get some men in the field of medicine.

That issue is solved simply by getting more people into the field of medicine, the gender of them is irrelevant.

metrovelvet

sam34 wrote: »

the main reason that doctors in this country are sleep deprived is not to do with being a parent, rather it is that they are forced to work shifts varying from 32 to 57 hours to cover the hospital at night and over weekends as many hospitals continue to ignore the working time directive.

having more male doctors wont change that.

Imagine having a baby on top of that.

Having more men means they wont be taking care of a baby at home sleep deprived ontop of those crazy schedules.

Ickle Magoo

That can only be claimed if also making the assumptions that male parents take no part in looking after their offspring - which simply isn't a universal truth...with doctors or architects or whatever other employment they happen to have.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That can only be claimed if also making the assumptions that male parents take no part in looking after their offspring - which simply isn't a universal truth...with doctors or architects or whatever other employment they happen to have.

Well I do make that assumption if I'm picking a surgeon or a hairdresser. Err on the side of caution [likelyhood.]

Or at least the assumption she is doing the lion's share.

Ickle Magoo

Just out of interest, how would you know your surgeon or hairdresser has children, far less make some kind of assumption about their lives and partners/childcare based on that...

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Just out of interest, how would you know your surgeon or hairdresser has children, far less make some kind of assumption about their lives and partners/childcare based on that...

If my surgeon is a man, particularly of a certain generation or age then I can guage that he does not have young kids who keep him up all night or that his wife is doing all or most of it.

As for hairdressers, I cant except by picking a man or by not picking one whom I know has a new baby, which in smaller towns is easy to get wind of.

Ickle Magoo

That's a ridiculous argument. You could pick an old surgeon who's prostate has them at the loo every hour on the hour, one who's nearest and dearest has been given a terminal diagnosis or who is going through a traumatic divorce. Picking a professional purely on baseless assumptions about their personal life that you really know zip about bar living in the sticks is just crackers. Sorry Metro, just can't see your logic here.

metrovelvet

Sorry, you can call it crackers if you like, you can call me crackers, but if people shouldnt even be driving sleep deprived, they sure as hell shouldnt be holding a scalpal.

If you want to think that the childcare is split evenely in irish households, you go ahead. I will believe something else entirely.

Ickle Magoo

I know it was split in mine, and I'm good friends with a female doctor (not GP) who has three kids and a husband who works from home and does the majority of the childcare - if you want to use assumptions from a tiny section of peoples lives to decide if they are up to a job while wilfully ignoring the other 99% of factors that also affects peoples lives then that's your prerogative but it is crackers.