Feminists

WesternNight

CoolGirl101 wrote: »

Absolutely despise the 'feminists' of today, they think women are better than men, not equal.

Those aren't feminists. They're something different.

Dudess

CoolGirl101 wrote: »

Absolutely despise the 'feminists' of today, they think women are better than men, not equal.

Such as whom?

Ms.Odgeynist

Sharrow wrote: »

Two of the best well read and most militant feminists I know are men and they self identify as feminists. They see how cultural and social mores and double standards and inequality has effected and effects the women in their life they care about. It's that simple.

To bring into a discussion about feminist the plight of others is unfair.
Yes I am aware of other types of discrimination and I try and raise awareness and support where I can but bring up other issues when the discussion is about women's issues is derailing and trying to undermine the discussion and those who do identify as feminist. I am a feminist, I am also an advocate for many other things but those aren't relevant in the thread about feminist.

It's like saying in a thread about rescuing and re homing cats that shame on those who do it as they are not rescuing other pets.

Best well read? And most militant? What are they reading?, The A-Team?
Or more importantly, where do they live? If you're suggesting there is a need for militant feminism in Ireland, I'm afraid I find the idea laughable.

Maybe it is unfair to bring the plight of others into a discussion about feminism. I think that says much more about feminism though, than any critic ever could.

Sharrow you do not live in a Patriarchy. Period!

I also find it very curious the idea that feminists in a cosy, comfortable, and affluent country like ours, continue to identify with women the world over based on nothing more than their genitalia. What you have in common with women in the developing world is truly beyond me.

Perhaps it is the lack of struggle in your life that animates you so. Just like the angst ridden teenager who needs a world to fight against, even though nobody really knows what the kid is going on about.

Keep up the good fight!!!!

Morag

Ms.Odgeynist wrote: »

Best well read? And most militant? What are they reading?, The A-Team?
Or more importantly, where do they live? If you're suggesting there is a need for militant feminism in Ireland, I'm afraid I find the idea laughable.

Best read as in have read more then I have on feminism and it's various philosophies.

Militant does not mean military. Being vigilant and calling people out on their comments and behaviour esp when it's unexplored sexist assumptions.

You may think it's not needed, I see were it is, people's attitudes to wards women still needs to be challenged in this country.

Ms.Odgeynist wrote: »

Sharrow you do not live in a Patriarchy. Period!

Really then why have I had to wait 10 years before being allowed to apply to have my tubes tied after having two kids?

Ms.Odgeynist wrote: »

I also find it very curious the idea that feminists in a cosy, comfortable, and affluent country like ours,

Look I don't know where you live but I didn't grow up in a affluent leafy suburb and I don't live in one now. I've volunteered in women's refuges and
worked with community drugs scheme and adult literacy schemes.
My world and the world of many women living in Ireland is not cosy and comfortable and they are not affluent.

Ms.Odgeynist wrote: »

continue to identify with women the world over based on nothing more than their genitalia. What you have in common with women in the developing world is truly beyond me.

I've been discriminated due to my gender, I've been sexually assaulted and I have suffered partner abuse, you know very little about me but you presume much.

Ms.Odgeynist wrote: »

Perhaps it is the lack of struggle in your life that animates you so. Just like the angst ridden teenager who needs a world to fight against, even though nobody really knows what the kid is going on about.

Oh look it's the other way to try and silence a person on line, saying they are immature and irrational and angry.

Why it's like you are trying to say I am hysterical and emotional unstable, like that has never ever ever been used to silence women when they are talking about things people don't want to hear.

And as a parent with two special needs kids, I have enough struggle in my life thanks.

Wibbs

Ms.Odgeynist, debate is all very well, but please dial back this sort of rhetoric. It adds nothing.

Ms.Odgeynist wrote: »

Perhaps it is the lack of struggle in your life that animates you so. Just like the angst ridden teenager who needs a world to fight against, even though nobody really knows what the kid is going on about.

Keep up the good fight!!!!

Medu

Dudess wrote: »

Such as whom?

Over the last few months there have been many women on TV discussing issues such as the collapse of the economy and the lack of women in politics. In many of these talks the women could out with a line such as-"If there were more women in politics then we could of avoided this" which is clearly implying that women are in some way better than men. Can you imagine the up roar if a man went on national TV and said that if we had more male nurses then our health service wouldn't be the mess that it is now?

Ms.Odgeynist

Wibbs wrote: »

Ms.Odgeynist, debate is all very well, but please dial back this sort of rhetoric. It adds nothing.

I apologise for the tone of my last post, to Sharrow especially.

It is however frustrating to be told that the point you make is 'derailing'.
I am a feminist. I am not here to derail any discussion about women's rights.

I fully accept that there are inequalities in our society.
I fully accept that many of these are felt by women.
But it seems strange that a movement that sprang in many ways from the civil rights movement in America, is now so opposed to incorporating others into their movement.

As long as feminism remains concerned solely with the well-being of women, then it continues to alienate and exclude.

gargleblaster

Ms.Odgeynist wrote: »

I apologise for the tone of my last post, to Sharrow especially.

It is however frustrating to be told that the point you make is 'derailing'.
I am a feminist. I am not here to derail any discussion about women's rights.

I fully accept that there are inequalities in our society.
I fully accept that many of these are felt by women.
But it seems strange that a movement that sprang in many ways from the civil rights movement in America, is now so opposed to incorporating others into their movement.

As long as feminism remains concerned solely with the well-being of women, then it continues to alienate and exclude.

Incorporating others into their movement? I don't know how that even makes sense.

Would you ask spinabifida fundraisers to raise funds for cancer instead? Would you ask fundraisers seeking money to send to Japan to ask for money for victims of other disasters too?

It's just baffling to me that the movement for women's equality seems to be the only one that that is ever hit with this "why don't you think about others" stuff.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that feminists think of nothing but feminist issues. That is just nonsense.

The PHMT stuff is clearly only used to derail conversations. The tactic is far from new to anyone who has been involved with working for women's rights for any length of time. In other forums I'm on they've come to the point of banning people from the forum if they can't keep themselves from bringing up men's issues over and over in the women's rights forum.

metrovelvet

gargleblaster wrote: »

Incorporating others into their movement? I don't know how that even makes sense.

Would you ask spinabifida fundraisers to raise funds for cancer instead? Would you ask fundraisers seeking money to send to Japan to ask for money for victims of other disasters too?

It's just baffling to me that the movement for women's equality seems to be the only one that that is ever hit with this "why don't you think about others" stuff.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that feminists think of nothing but feminist issues. That is just nonsense.

The PHMT stuff is clearly only used to derail conversations. The tactic is far from new to anyone who has been involved with working for women's rights for any length of time. In other forums I'm on they've come to the point of banning people from the forum if they can't keep themselves from bringing up men's issues over and over in the women's rights forum.

Its because women are expected to think of others, being the nurterers and carers of society.

Ms.Odgeynist

gargleblaster wrote: »

Incorporating others into their movement? I don't know how that even makes sense.

Would you ask spinabifida fundraisers to raise funds for cancer instead? Would you ask fundraisers seeking money to send to Japan to ask for money for victims of other disasters too?

It's just baffling to me that the movement for women's equality seems to be the only one that that is ever hit with this "why don't you think about others" stuff.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that feminists think of nothing but feminist issues. That is just nonsense.

The PHMT stuff is clearly only used to derail conversations. The tactic is far from new to anyone who has been involved with working for women's rights for any length of time. In other forums I'm on they've come to the point of banning people from the forum if they can't keep themselves from bringing up men's issues over and over in the women's rights forum.

Thats the point - there are some of us who do not believe in women's rights, or men's rights, only human rights.

I'm not asking feminists to think of others solely because I think the others would benefit from it.
I'm saying that a women's movement in modern Ireland has outlived its use.
There are certainly still issues that affect women, but they are not the issues of inequality that the women's liberation movement was created to tackle.

And the only reason I would ever suggest not simply focusing on women's issues is because it is perceived as exclusionary.

Take Womens Aid - no one would suggest that the work they do is not fantastic. But as a proportion of society, women are virtually unaffected by violence when compared with men. Whether it is 'right' or not, there is a perception that women's suffering is more highly 'valued', for want of a better term, than mens.

I'm not derailing here, I'm trying to make a simple point. I'm not saying the women's movement should start funding education programmes for boys and young men.......but wouldn't that be something!!

And please don't accuse me of belittling the suffering of those affected by domestic abuse - that was not my aim.

Ms.Odgeynist

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its because women are expected to think of others, being the nurterers and carers of society.

How can you still peddle this stereotypical nonsense??

And I suppose men are tough, strong, stoic and full of the concrete character we'll need to get us out of the financial crisis??????

metrovelvet

Ms.Odgeynist wrote: »

How can you still peddle this stereotypical nonsense??

And I suppose men are tough, strong, stoic and full of the concrete character we'll need to get us out of the financial crisis??????

Whoa there cowgirl. I'm not peddling it. I'm saying that is the stereotype operatine behind people expecting feminist to solve the worlds problem.

Mommy, help me! la la ga ga ja ja ba ba, mommy.

Count Duckula

And you say this from a position of scientific authority and rigorous research, metrovelvet? Or are you merely peddling your guess as fact?

metrovelvet

Count Duckula wrote: »

And you say this from a position of scientific authority and rigorous research, metrovelvet? Or are you merely peddling your guess as fact?

Em...this is about feminism. Scientific data? WTF are you talking about?

You want science...there's a few forums for it.

This is an OPINION topic.

WesternNight

On the topic of research, I remember reading about a study that found that women performed more poorly on tasks (I think it was maths problems or something like that) when they were reminded of their gender, and performed better when not reminded. Which I thought was interesting. Must see if I can find that study.

Count Duckula

metrovelvet wrote: »

Em...this is about feminism. Scientific data? WTF are you talking about?

You want science...there's a few forums for it.

This is an OPINION topic.

You made that statement as if it were solid fact. I was merely enquiring as to whether you'd read any research or studies into that, or were providing us with an opinion masquerading as truth.

And to claim that feminism is a topic without science is to do a disservice to the generations of social scientists and feminist historians who have spent their lives studying the topic, amalgamating data and publishing studies. Feminism is very much a scientific study, as with every other aspect of the social sciences. It's not a simple as being an "opinion".

However, if we are to address the cause as to why people expect feminists to care about all other types of equality and their fights to be obtained, it is my opinion that the reason is because feminism unavoidably divides the position of society into two distinct camps. Those without the rights (women), and those with the rights (men). I'm not saying that it claims all men are bad - if it did, how on Earth could any man come to support it? - but that it points out that society still favours men in many ways, some overt, some far more subtle but no less dangerous.

Some people, I suspect, feel that gender equality has largely been achieved. Therefore, focussing solely on women's rights is inequality in itself and they believe that injustices must be addressed for both genders. At the same time, others may well see the advancement of women's rights as a threat, and act accordingly. By that, I don't mean there are people out there wishing subservience upon women and genuinely believing themselves as the greater force, but that they, deep down, are scared of this "group" that they are not a part of. It must be slightly unnerving for some men to see people in a group that they can simply never belong to fighting for their own rights. It's natural to assume that, if you are part of the "other" group, the rights they earn will affect you negatively in some way, perhaps by taking some of those rights away from you to achieve them, even if this thinking is buried deep in the visceral core of a man's brain.

It is therefore both a defense mechanism against what they may perceive as an attack on their character by women's rights activists ("stop seeing me as the bad guy; we suffer from this too!") and an act of aggression to prevent the feminist ideal that threatens their way of life ("well my gender have all these problems too, and yet I can tolerate the status quo; we all have issues, just deal with them").

These are my hypotheses. No more.

Count Duckula

WesternNight wrote: »

On the topic of research, I remember reading about a study that found that women performed more poorly on tasks (I think it was maths problems or something like that) when they were reminded of their gender, and performed better when not reminded. Which I thought was interesting. Must see if I can find that study.

That was on Boards somewhere, I believe. The topic was a test in one of the "hard" sciences (maths, physics). By reminding women of their gender, they tended to suffer when compared to the men, but by then having them complete a "self-affirmation" writing task, their scores leapt up to parity with their male peers. This suggests to me that it is so ingrained into women that they don't do as well in the sciences, that indeed it is a man's domain, that when reminded that they are women (ie, pointing out that difference) their brains unconsciously "back down". The self-affirmation writing task countered this by reminding women that there is no truth in that way of thinking.

To some extent, that's a classic case of bringing empowerment to a woman disadvantaged by society's view of her gender's place.

liah

Sad that, at least around here (and reddit, actually), it tends to be the "well my gender has all these problems too, and yet I can tolerate the status quo; we all have issues, just deal with them" types.. The "stop seeing me as the bad guy; we suffer from this too!" types are such a minority these days.

That said, this thread's gone a lot better than expected. I was expecting much, much more backlash from the regulars.

metrovelvet

liah wrote: »

Sad that, at least around here (and reddit, actually), it tends to be the "well my gender has all these problems too, and yet I can tolerate the status quo; we all have issues, just deal with them" types.. The "stop seeing me as the bad guy; we suffer from this too!" types are such a minority these days.

That said, this thread's gone a lot better than expected. I was expecting much, much more backlash from the regulars.

Try it in Humanties or the Gentlemans club.

Wibbs

metrovelvet we're not in either of those forums so not relevant thanks.

gargleblaster

Count Duckula wrote: »

That was on Boards somewhere, I believe. The topic was a test in one of the "hard" sciences (maths, physics). By reminding women of their gender, they tended to suffer when compared to the men, but by then having them complete a "self-affirmation" writing task, their scores leapt up to parity with their male peers. This suggests to me that it is so ingrained into women that they don't do as well in the sciences, that indeed it is a man's domain, that when reminded that they are women (ie, pointing out that difference) their brains unconsciously "back down". The self-affirmation writing task countered this by reminding women that there is no truth in that way of thinking.

To some extent, that's a classic case of bringing empowerment to a woman disadvantaged by society's view of her gender's place.

And yet just a few posts back there were comments insinuating that there is no need for feminism anymore.

It is sad that there is so much violence facing males. It is good that there are groups discussing it and addressing it. If there isn't enough work being done on that, why is that?

Perhaps it might be due to the fact that there very much is a patriarchy in place (comprised of both men and women), and they are by and large not so unhappy with the status quo? Perhaps it might be because most people still use phrases such as "boys will be boys" and thereby sweep the issue under the rug?

Whatever the reason, addressing the issue is the answer, not derailing the very much needed feminist movement. If someone feels they don't need it anymore, that is all well and good. I would definitely be interested in discussing those issues and addressing them, and I do.

However, I just can't understand why anyone who thinks the feminist movement is unnecessary takes it upon themselves to try to foist that belief off on others.

Imagine if I were to attend a meeting of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People in the US, and start talking about how shouldn't they just move on, and incorporate white people too, and work for human rights instead. I wonder how that would be received by them or by the media and the public. I will just never understand this line of thinking. Groups that work to advance their causes do nothing to prevent other groups from doing whatever it is that needs to be done to advance theirs.

And if ever they did come into conflict then I'm sure that would be addressed and both groups could start working on a solution, but I surely don't see it as a reason to eliminate both groups and pretend that we are already living in that land of equality which would allow us the luxury of not examining differences in treatment anymore.

Just MHO as always.

JajaD

Jesus that is a terrible question. Firstly why should feminism be controversial and feminism isnt about burning bras and women power! Men and women can be feminist also. Its about equality. Its about women getting an equal say and to do the same things that men can do. So if you (men or women) dont class yourself as a feminist then you are saying that you believe that women shouldnt have equality.

check out the link below and see how many women dont even understand what it means...

http://vimeo.com/15355086

MadameCholet

Truley wrote: »

Personally I am very much in favour of equality of opportunity for all sexes and try to avoid turning it into a men vs women or even just a fight for 'women's rights.' I think focusing on one 'side' of the cause will inevitably become narrow sighted. I do not believe in black people's rights I believe in everyone's rights.

One thing that really get's my goat is when people talk of discrimination and misogyny as if it's a simple men vs women argument. Many of the standard topics of women's rights; pro life, contraception bans, islamic dress, pay discrimination etc are so strongly enforced by other women. Magdalen laundries for example were largely run and staffed by women. They were also largely accepted by Irish women.

Often women do not face discrimination because of their gender but because of people's views on morality in general. I think feminists often make the mistake of viewing issues through a filter of gender discrimination when there is often much more to it than that.

This is such a totally incoherent collection of thoughts on feminism. I don't know where to start.
1) when you talk about 'all the sexes' you realise there are only two.
2) men don't need to counter discrimination on the basis of their sex, except perhaps very occasionally if they want to be midwives or childcarers. So that leaves women. Feminism is not an issue for most men because they enjoy their privileged status of course. Why would the average man who earns more than his more intelligent/experience female colleague two desks away campaign for equality between the sexes?! Obviously most men won't. They will enjoy the perks of being a man and make jokes about making sandwiches when faced with a logical argument they have no immediate answer for.
3) even if the issues which oppress women are cultural, that is no excuse to ignore them. It's not relevant why things are inequal. Correcting them is the focus of Feminism. We need to push back the boundaries and challenge the things which damage women and only women. The experience of parenthood & damage to career comes to mind. Society seems to shrug at so much of those issues which only affect women.
4) men have a greater sense of entitlement and a lot of the time women just accept this and accommodate their own husbands' greater sense of entitlement. It is up to each woman whether or not she wants to battle this out with her own husband, but I see it all the time. Women are raised to be people-pleasers and raised to support their husband blah blah blah. Men's sense of entitlement is so deeply entrenched that most women don't notice it. It feels like the correct status quo.

Men who fear feminism have made it a dirty word. So few women will happily align themselves to Feminism. And the main reason for this is that they know that men don't like feminism. They want equality, but they want men's approval too!!!!!! AND why do women need men's approval so badly? eh durr because it is still a man's World. Men are the employers. Men don't tend to warm to women who speak out about the injustices between the sexes. It's not "attractive" in a woman that she be a stridently unapologetically feminst. We want equal rights but we need to play the game and follow the rules.

I'm so sick of reading posts from young women who will fanny about saying Oh yeah I want equal rights for women but I'm not a feminist.

liah

MadameCholet wrote:

when you talk about 'all the sexes' you realise there are only two.

Poor hermaphrodites..

Count Duckula

If I'm a man and therefore don't like feminism, how on earth do I support feminism in all its guises? Do I have a secret vagina tucked away somewhere? Or, perhaps, are you slight misguided in your assertions that being a man and being a supporter of feminism are completely opposed to one another?

Just because I'm advantaged by something doesn't mean I'll ignore those disadvantaged by it.

Dudess

Medu wrote: »

Over the last few months there have been many women on TV discussing issues such as the collapse of the economy and the lack of women in politics. In many of these talks the women could out with a line such as-"If there were more women in politics then we could of avoided this" which is clearly implying that women are in some way better than men. Can you imagine the up roar if a man went on national TV and said that if we had more male nurses then our health service wouldn't be the mess that it is now?

Yeah but how are those "feminists of today"? This is what gets people's goat - holding something like the above up as feminism. That isn't feminism, that's a bunch of people who may be feminists but are pushing a totally uncalled-for message.

Blowfish

MadameCholet wrote: »

This is such a totally incoherent collection of thoughts on feminism. I don't know where to start.
1) when you talk about 'all the sexes' you realise there are only two.
2) men don't need to counter discrimination on the basis of their sex, except perhaps very occasionally if they want to be midwives or childcarers. So that leaves women. Feminism is not an issue for most men because they enjoy their privileged status of course. Why would the average man who earns more than his more intelligent/experience female colleague two desks away campaign for equality between the sexes?! Obviously most men won't. They will enjoy the perks of being a man and make jokes about making sandwiches when faced with a logical argument they have no immediate answer for.
3) even if the issues which oppress women are cultural, that is no excuse to ignore them. It's not relevant why things are inequal. Correcting them is the focus of Feminism. We need to push back the boundaries and challenge the things which damage women and only women. The experience of parenthood & damage to career comes to mind. Society seems to shrug at so much of those issues which only affect women.
4) men have a greater sense of entitlement and a lot of the time women just accept this and accommodate their own husbands' greater sense of entitlement. It is up to each woman whether or not she wants to battle this out with her own husband, but I see it all the time. Women are raised to be people-pleasers and raised to support their husband blah blah blah. Men's sense of entitlement is so deeply entrenched that most women don't notice it. It feels like the correct status quo.

Men who fear feminism have made it a dirty word. So few women will happily align themselves to Feminism. And the main reason for this is that they know that men don't like feminism. They want equality, but they want men's approval too!!!!!! AND why do women need men's approval so badly? eh durr because it is still a man's World. Men are the employers. Men don't tend to warm to women who speak out about the injustices between the sexes. It's not "attractive" in a woman that she be a stridently unapologetically feminst. We want equal rights but we need to play the game and follow the rules.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you've managed to express several views which severely undermine the cause you are fighting for. Making ridiculous generalisations like the above 'men enjoy their privileged status'/'mens sense of entitlement is deeply entrenched' is precisely how a minority give feminism a bad name.

Feminism is about equality. Negative generalisations have no place in this.

MadameCholet

Count Duckula wrote: »

If I'm a man and therefore don't like feminism, how on earth do I support feminism in all its guises? Do I have a secret vagina tucked away somewhere? Or, perhaps, are you slight misguided in your assertions that being a man and being a supporter of feminism are completely opposed to one another?

Just because I'm advantaged by something doesn't mean I'll ignore those disadvantaged by it.

Well good, I'm glad to hear it. But obviously men aren't motivated to push for equality in the same way as women. And so therefore the vast majority of them make jokes about pmt/sandiwches or wimmen nagging when they are challenged.

I'll tell you how a man might support feminism in his own life and household.

Value his wife's career as highly as his own. Don't disparage women in the locker room. Don't see a woman's real value in terms of how '****able' she is. Pull his weight with the chores. Encourage his daughters to be doctors not nurses (example) There are many ways for a men to be a feminist but most of them aren't motivated to remember to bother to try. So it is down to women.

MadameCholet

Blowfish, you don't sound harsh, but you do sound a little obtuse if you think that it can be argued that men don't enjoy a privileged position in society. Of course they do. How anybody could seriously argue with that is ludicrous.

I have not "undermined" any of the arguments for equality. FAR from it. I have identified some of the reasons why Feminism is still unfortunately a dirty word, and why women still fear the word feminism.

There can be no logical argument against equality. But yet here we are still in need of equality which is a long, long way off. Why is that then if its not down to the half of society which enjoys its privileged position and is not going to let it go easily.

It seems like you are saying I didn't ask nicely enough. Women have to ask men for equality, and yet you say there is no game to play? ha ha. It's almost funny.

Stheno

MadameCholet, less of the sweeping gender generalisations please, they are not contributing anything positive.