Would you actually prefer if the Irish language didnt exist?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

I cant say that your argument makes any sense, Irish being compulsory is not the only Issue. Its not an issue of Will compulsory work or will optional work. There is far far more to it than that. Its an issue of how the language is taught, how the curriculum is structured, we haven even begun to try reforming the curriculum to restructre how the language is taught.

We have yet to try teaching people how to speak the language from an early age. The current curriculum is massivly taken up with Literature, The former LC curriculum and subsequently class room time was 70% spent on Literature even though the Exam marks for it was much lower.

We have yet to reform the Curriculum and teach Irish through a curriculum based on the Common European Framework for second language learning. The curriculum exists to do this. It can be found here. But we have yet to try using it in Schools.

You claim that we have tried everything except making it optional.
We have tried Compulsory Literature with some Spoken as an aftertaught at the end, This has failed, We have yet to try anything else, so lets reform the curriculum, restructure how it is taught, based on the CEF and try something based on a framework that is proven to work.

As for making it optional, that has been shown to fail already, You know what the definiation of madness is. You expect us to try the same thing England did and you expect different results?
Why?


As for the Twenty year plan, I dont see why you are taring it with the FF failure brush, After all FG have signed up to it too, as has everyone else.

No one's arguing with you about teaching kids from an early age. We're talking optional after 16, not optional full stop.

By all means, reshape and redo the syllabus. If you do it right, kids will want to do it. The small minority who won't won't hurt any revival and can choose to go their own sperate paths

Do it wrong and you'll be back where you started: with this incorrectly labeled universal truth that everyone is nationalistic and patriotic and that your will is more important than the majority of 16 year olds and the selfish notion that you have the right to dictate to people how to lead their lives and batter them down until the submit to some natinoal to show how proud and free you are.

Sorry, but you don't have this right.

medici

I liked Irish in school when I had decent Irish teachers....and detested it more than words can tell when I had bad teachers.....not sure if it should go but it could most definitely be improved.

Also......will this stance by Fine Gael mean they might have to come up with a new name in the future - something a little less native

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Good point. So what is the point of learning it? Lets face it. People just want it to stay because it is a good thing in a nationalistic point of view. A good political thing more than anything. No need for it. The vast majority of people speak English and don't need it. Scrap it is what i say.

The majority of Iceland can speak English, does that mean they should scrap Icelandic? What about Wales, they all speak English - Should they scrap Welsh?

You're going to have to wake up to the reality that not everybody views the world through your eyes, and find a cultural attachment to their indigenous language. The Irish language won't be scrapped anytime soon, and it's only getting stronger - especially in Ulster.

twinQuins

dlofnep wrote: »

You're going to have to wake up to the reality that not everybody views the world through your eyes, and find a cultural attachment to their indigenous language.

The irony is strong in this one. Though, just to be sure, do you support compulsory Irish?

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

The majority of Iceland can speak English, does that mean they should scrap Icelandic? What about Wales, they all speak English - Should they scrap Welsh?

You're going to have to wake up to the reality that not everybody views the world through your eyes, and find a cultural attachment to their indigenous language. The Irish language won't be scrapped anytime soon, and it's only getting stronger - especially in Ulster.

Yeah but Icelands actual national language is icelandic which is used more than English. Same thing applies in this situation. Irish is not the national language. English is.

I think they should scrap Welsh. Pointless.

maximoose

dlofnep wrote: »

The majority of Iceland can speak English, does that mean they should scrap Icelandic? What about Wales, they all speak English - Should they scrap Welsh?

That's hardly the same, they speak English as a second language. Thats true for what, 5% of Ireland?

I dont think Irish should be scapped BTW, but definitely should be made an optional subject. If someone wants to learn Irish and find out about their cultural identity by all means they should have access to, but those who don't shouldn't have to waste their time when they could be studying something else.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

As for making it optional, that has been shown to fail already, You know what the definiation of madness is. You expect us to try the same thing England did and you expect different results?
Why?

Eh what? No seriously. What? How in gods name would we be doing the same as England did?

The definition of madness is what the Irish supporters have been ding for a century. Imposing what had become a minority rural tongue on the majority urban population of this nation while attaching it to some sense of Irishness, so without it you aint really one of us. Pack your bags oh sons and daughters of Eireann you're going on a guilt trip.

Its like this; you can't force culture if people don't want it or find it useful. It's been tried. England (partially)succeeded because english was and is useful. Very. It's still the most useful language on the planet*. Yet even in the face of that overwhelming usefulness people still speak Welsh and Irish and Scots gaelic, even Manx and Cornish survived. Breton and Basque and Galician and any number of little languages survived in the face of similar. That's cool, but trying to go the other way is like pushing water uphill. You simply can't force it or people will rebel against it. We have.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and its 80 years stale. Can any of you point out any other nation that has spent so much on so few to convince the many and ended up with so little? Just one would do. Even at best guestimates around one in fifty speak it daily(100,000 outa 5 million). One in fifty FFS. How in christs name is that within sniffing distance of "our" language?

It's up there with calling us a Catholic country. Actually its not far off that. People who havent kissed a bishops ring nor settled in a pew for decades will happily put down Catholic in the box. God forbid they may be thought of as Prods :eek::D Yet the churches lay empty save for high days and holy days. Oh sure you still have Catholics, mostly a la carte, like the cupla focal Irish "speakers" with a small group who actually follow the general gist. The majority of schools are catholic and would have religious teachings going on, yet as adults only a few bend their knee of a sunday. Calling Ireland a catholic country is not far off calling it an Irish speaking country. Untrue basically.








*Mandarin contrary to popular belief has a looooong way to go. Spanish with french behind it would be way ahead of Mandarin.

Borat_Sagdiyev

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh what? No seriously. What? How in gods name would we be doing the same as England did?

The definition of madness is what the Irish supporters have been ding for a century. Imposing what had become a minority rural tongue on the majority urban population of this nation while attaching it to some sense of Irishness, so without it you aint really one of us. Pack your bags oh sons and daughters of Eireann you're going on a guilt trip.

Its like this; you can't force culture if people don't want it or find it useful. It's been tried. England (partially)succeeded because english was and is useful. Very. It's still the most useful language on the planet*. Yet even in the face of that overwhelming usefulness people still speak Welsh and Irish and Scots gaelic, even Manx and Cornish survived. Breton and Basque and Galician and any number of little languages survived in the face of similar. That's cool, but trying to go the other way is like pushing water uphill. You simply can't force it or people will rebel against it. We have.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and its 80 years stale. Can any of you point out any other nation that has spent so much on so few to convince the many and ended up with so little? Just one would do. Even at best guestimates around one in fifty speak it daily(100,000 outa 5 million). One in fifty FFS. How in christs name is that within sniffing distance of "our" language?

It's up there with calling us a Catholic country. Actually its not far off that. People who havent kissed a bishops ring nor settled in a pew for decades will happily put down Catholic in the box. God forbid they may be thought of as Prods :eek::D Yet the churches lay empty save for high days and holy days. Oh sure you still have Catholics, mostly a la carte, like the cupla focal Irish "speakers" with a small group who actually follow the general gist. The majority of schools are catholic and would have religious teachings going on, yet as adults only a few bend their knee of a sunday. Calling Ireland a catholic country is not far off calling it an Irish speaking country. Untrue basically.

*Mandarin contrary to popular belief has a looooong way to go. Spanish with french behind it would be way ahead of Mandarin.

You want to get rid of all languages that don't meet some sort of pre-defined "usefullness" ?

OK lets say you get rid of Irish - what next? Basque and Breton languages?

Should we get rid of all languages apart from English? What languages would you keep?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Borat_Sagdiyev wrote: »

You want to get rid of all languages that don't meet some sort of pre-defined "usefullness" ?

OK lets say you get rid of Irish - what next? Basque and Breton languages?

Should we get rid of all languages apart from English? What languages would you keep?

He doesn't say this. He actually says the opposite. If you speak it, and you find the cultural aspect useful, cool. If you don't, cool. Just don't force it on the rest of us who.

(Sorry for butting in)

dlofnep

twinQuins wrote: »

The irony is strong in this one. Though, just to be sure, do you support compulsory Irish?

There is nothing ironic about my statement whatsoever. And yes, I support both English & Irish being compulsory subjects. I fail to see any irony in it whatsoever.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yeah but Icelands actual national language is icelandic which is used more than English. Same thing applies in this situation. Irish is not the national language. English is.

I think they should scrap Welsh. Pointless.

That's your problem. You fail to see the cultural importance of any language. The Welsh people are happy to retain it. Not everyone wishes to be monolingual.

Wibbs

Borat_Sagdiyev wrote: »

You want to get rid of all languages that don't meet some sort of pre-defined "usefullness" ?

OK lets say you get rid of Irish - what next? Basque and Breton languages?

Should we get rid of all languages apart from English? What languages would you keep?

Good God man. Way to miss the point. Right let's attempt to join the dots here... Point out where in that post or any post I have made on the subject where I said get rid of Irish. Seriously, I'd love to see you or any of the other Fianna Na Gaelige point out just one example. If you can't and you can't lets dial back the hysterics and accusations if you could?

Try actually reading rather than going off on what you're position assumes others may think. It really does make the ardent Irish speakers look a little silly, paranoid and culturally dictatorial.

RMD

If they're not going to get make it a choice at least change the way it's thought. The fact that my level of French is completely superior to my level of Irish even though I've been learning Irish for twice as long is testament to how **** it is thought.

I'd much prefer to see the time spent teaching Irish being spent on a different language which will actually have some form of use later in life.

twinQuins

dlofnep wrote: »

There is nothing ironic about my statement whatsoever. And yes, I support both English & Irish being compulsory subjects. I fail to see any irony in it whatsoever.

You don't find it ironic that on the one hand you criticise another poster about "not everybody sees the world through your eyes", while you support a system which forces people to see the world through your eyes?

Not everybody finds cultural value in the Irish language. Perhaps you should consider that before forcing your idea of Irish culture onto other people.

dlofnep wrote: »

Not everyone wishes to be monolingual.

Your point doesn't make sense: you can be bilingual without speaking Welsh, Irish, etc..

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dlofnep wrote: »

The majority of Iceland can speak English, does that mean they should scrap Icelandic? What about Wales, they all speak English - Should they scrap Welsh?

You're going to have to wake up to the reality that not everybody views the world through your eyes, and find a cultural attachment to their indigenous language. The Irish language won't be scrapped anytime soon, and it's only getting stronger - especially in Ulster.

Here you accept that other people have different viewpoints and do not wish to see one person's viewpoint imposed on another.

dlofnep wrote: »

That's your problem. You fail to see the cultural importance of any language. The Welsh people are happy to retain it. Not everyone wishes to be monolingual.

Here you deny that other people have different viewpoints...

dlofnep wrote: »

There is nothing ironic about my statement whatsoever. And yes, I support both English & Irish being compulsory subjects. I fail to see any irony in it whatsoever.

... and here you want to impose your viewpoints on others.

Peoople have the right to NOT like a langauge or find it culturally important and hve the right to abstain from learning it. Or at least, should have.

fastasfook

pragmatic1 wrote: »

No I wouldnt. I'm glad I have it and I'll pass it on to my kids.

fair play to you and a fooking shame on any irish person that wants to get rid of our irish language. we are the only country in the WORLD thats speaks its native language second , and at that most of us cant speak it at all , i dare anyone to go to the west of ireland and say lets not speak irish anymore they are a great people shame on us the country might be fooked and the bastards running it are making a laugh of us but let us all never forget we are IRISH and be proud of that . i love the irish language the only trouble is i cant speak it fluently .

TIOCFAIDI AR LA

Wibbs

fastasfook wrote: »

fair play to you and a fooking shame on any irish person that wants to get rid of our irish language.

Nobody does. I know this seems to trouble many, but there it is.

we are the only country in the WORLD thats speaks its native language second , and at that most of us cant speak it at all ,

(you couldnt make this stuff up)And that tells you what?.... hmmm?.... Yep, correctamundo, its not really our "native" language at the moment and hasn't been for quite a while. Shhhh though.

i dare anyone to go to the west of ireland and say lets not speak irish anymore

Nobody is suggesting doing so.

they are a great people

Some are, some aren't. Like all people.

shame on us the country might be fooked

It's not fooked. People keep saying it is, but we're not that fooked.

Only some and the bastards running it are making a laugh of us

Oh right yes, the bastards we voted in

but let us all never forget we are IRISH and be proud of that

I certainly am. Not so sure about KeithAFC mind....

i love the irish language the only trouble is i cant speak it fluently .

You couldnt make it up part Two.

TIOCFAIDI AR LA

You really couldn't make it up.(It's tiocfaidh ár lá BTW)

What's irony as Gaeilge? Must have either no equivalent or 100's of nuanced words.

KeithAFC

fastasfook wrote: »

fair play to you and a fooking shame on any irish person that wants to get rid of our irish language. we are the only country in the WORLD thats speaks its native language second , and at that most of us cant speak it at all , i dare anyone to go to the west of ireland and say lets not speak irish anymore they are a great people shame on us the country might be fooked and the bastards running it are making a laugh of us but let us all never forget we are IRISH and be proud of that . i love the irish language the only trouble is i cant speak it fluently .

TIOCFAIDI AR LA

Your day will come when every Irish person can speak it fluently? I doubt that. I think most people accept that will never happen.

Brenireland

I hate FF for promoting such a language.

Question: Does anyone who opposes public funding of support for the Irish language accept that such an opinion is in the minority in this country? Or at least in large parts of it? Or do they believe that public apathy presents an oppertunity to convince undecideds of the merits of their position?

I personally see great value in international standing of the Irish language, and I await with great anticipation the opinion of a neutral observer, Stephen Fry, when he shows his minority language series on BBC (The main reason he was over in Ireland a few months back).

Kinda weird that the thread started to debate FG's idea of removing the compulsory status of Irish morphed into a debate on irish as a whole, and the Irish as a whole thread morphed into one on FG's idea to remove the compulsory status of Irish!

Anyways, if people are going to be encouraged to speak the language, it should be with carrot not stick. Teach it better, let the lost causes and haters run from it and shut their ears to it if they wish.

Wibbs, you acknowledged in the other thread the cultural aspect of the language and that's good enough for me. It's not your bag but that's OK, it's a free country, your opinion.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

Question: Does anyone who opposes public funding of support for the Irish language accept that such an opinion is in the minority in this country? Or at least in large parts of it? Or do they believe that public apathy presents an oppertunity to convince undecideds of the merits of their position?

I personally see great value in international standing of the Irish language, and I await with great anticipation the opinion of a neutral observer, Stephen Fry, when he shows his minority language series on BBC (The main reason he was over in Ireland a few months back).

Kinda weird that the thread started to debate FG's idea of removing the compulsory status of Irish morphed into a debate on irish as a whole, and the Irish as a whole thread morphed into one on FG's idea to remove the compulsory status of Irish!

Anyways, if people are going to be encouraged to speak the language, it should be with carrot not stick. Teach it better, let the lost causes and haters run from it and shut their ears to it if they wish.

Wibbs, you acknowledged in the other thread the cultural aspect of the language and that's good enough for me. It's not your bag but that's OK, it's a free country, your opinion.

No problem money being spent on it, just it being forced on people. Make classes available to adults who want to learn it, revamp the course but for the love of God, let the people who don't want it, leave it.

Also, the Fine Gael thread is the other one (have made that mistake myself!)

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Question: Does anyone who opposes public funding of support for the Irish language accept that such an opinion is in the minority in this country? Or at least in large parts of it? Or do they believe that public apathy presents an oppertunity to convince undecideds of the merits of their position?

As you say, apathy is the majority default setting in this country. Hence bugger all people speak the language. What really gets on my titicles is those "I only beeeedin luuurve de language buuud and you're only a bri' foookin bastaaaaard cos ye dooooon't(Dublin Galegoir clearly)" yet can't speak a cogent sentence in it themselves. It's actually and objectively beyond daft. Actually forget apathy, IMHO the true nature of the Irish in Ireland in many areas of life seems to be hypocrisy and this goes double for cultural stuff.

I personally see great value in international standing of the Irish language, and I await with great anticipation the opinion of a neutral observer, Stephen Fry, when he shows his minority language series on BBC (The main reason he was over in Ireland a few months back).

I too see value in the language, but not the flim flam that comes along with it. TBH I find most of the overly vocal supporters of it either died in the wool throwbacks to 50's ireland, or urbanised scions of same with chips on their shoulders.

Kinda weird that the thread started to debate FG's idea of removing the compulsory status of Irish morphed into a debate on irish as a whole, and the Irish as a whole thread morphed into one on FG's idea to remove the compulsory status of Irish!

It's boards

Wibbs, you acknowledged in the other thread the cultural aspect of the language and that's good enough for me. It's not your bag but that's OK, it's a free country, your opinion.

Cool but I guarantee in 20 years time it's still be one in fifty speaking it and that's cool too.

MagicSean

I like speaking Irish. I don't think it should be forced on people though. Much better if students got to choose a second language that would benefit them in some way. I definitely dont think we should be spending money translating everything to Irish and enforcing Irish rules on government bodies.

NullZer0

Yes, I would prefer it didn't exist.
This has been dragged out far too long.

Preservation of the Irish language is in my opinion one of the best examples of "intelligent people" wasting resources. Add to that the fact that students are expected to learn it for X number and then never use it.

To me, its just a pathetic, ignorant way of clutching at straws - if heritage and history were that important to the Irish people, Northern Ireland would not be part of the "UK" (not that I care).

Why not teach our youth something that we CAN be proud of? Teach them to innovate, create and look forward?

Fluorescence

Deleted User wrote: »

I personally see great value in international standing of the Irish language, and I await with great anticipation the opinion of a neutral observer, Stephen Fry, when he shows his minority language series on BBC (The main reason he was over in Ireland a few months back).

Out of curiosity, what value does an international standing of Irish actually have?

Borat_Sagdiyev

Wibbs wrote: »

Good God man. Way to miss the point. Right let's attempt to join the dots here... Point out where in that post or any post I have made on the subject where I said get rid of Irish. Seriously, I'd love to see you or any of the other Fianna Na Gaelige point out just one example. If you can't and you can't lets dial back the hysterics and accusations if you could?

Try actually reading rather than going off on what you're position assumes others may think. It really does make the ardent Irish speakers look a little silly, paranoid and culturally dictatorial.

Easy, I'm not looking to start an argument, I just wonder about your point of view.

Wibbs wrote: »

Its like this; you can't force culture if people don't want it or find it useful. It's been tried. England (partially)succeeded because english was and is useful. Very. It's still the most useful language on the planet*. Yet even in the face of that overwhelming usefulness people still speak Welsh and Irish and Scots gaelic, even Manx and Cornish survived. Breton and Basque and Galician and any number of little languages survived in the face of similar. That's cool, but trying to go the other way is like pushing water uphill. You simply can't force it or people will rebel against it. We have.

I suppose it was this bit that got at me, it sounded like you were astonished that these languages were not just killed while there was a much more useful language that they could have been using instead.

I didn't mean to come across as accusing, my apologies.

To be honest I've thought for years that the fact that Irish is compulsory that it forces people that have no interest in it to do it, therefore turning them against it for life. I was lucky enough to grow up in an Irish speaking household so I just ignored everything they tried to teach me and still got my B in the leaving ( would have got an A but I was a lazy baxtard and didn't bother with the poems ).

The way it is taught is rubbish as well - learn these 100+ verbs and then we'll learn how to construct a sentence next week? FFS give me a break. How about just sitting there learning new sentences each week? Put away the pens and just talk in the language you want to learn like.

Salty

KeithAFC wrote: »

You not going to let him make up his own mind if he wants to learn it?

I'd be more interested in learning about English, Maths and science to be honest.

In fairness, how can a 4/5 year old child make up their mind as to what primary school they go to?
And going to a Gaelscoil will not inhibit his learning English, Maths and Science. English is learned anyway, in English and not through Irish. Maths and Science will be taught through Irish, but he'll have the same knowledge as his peers who learned it in English. Best of both worlds really, fluent in Irish, same knowledge in other subjects.

fastasfook

Wibbs wrote: »

As you say, apathy is the majority default setting in this country. Hence bugger all people speak the language. What really gets on my titicles is those "I only beeeedin luuurve de language buuud and you're only a bri' foookin bastaaaaard cos ye dooooon't(Dublin Galegoir clearly)" yet can't speak a cogent sentence in it themselves. It's actually and objectively beyond daft. Actually forget apathy, IMHO the true nature of the Irish in Ireland in many areas of life seems to be hypocrisy and this goes double for cultural stuff.

I too see value in the language, but not the flim flam that comes along with it. TBH I find most of the overly vocal supporters of it either died in the wool throwbacks to 50's ireland, or urbanised scions of same with chips on their shoulders.
It's boards

Cool but I guarantee in 20 years time it's still be one in fifty speaking it and that's cool too.

wibbs i dont know why you are so uptight about the irish language , did you have a bad experience or what, feel free to tell us , we are here to listen and help you over come it, are you english, but saying that i know a lot of english who speak irish. speaking about chips on shoulders , how are your shoulders

Salty

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't see why a child has to learn about something which is frankly not ever going to do them much good in later life. But the worst thing is if it is forced upon you.

It's no more forced upon someone than any other subject. Take maths for example. Most people only require basic arithmetic to get them through life. Algebra is completely irrelevant unless one intends on becoming an engineer or something. Irish has more relevance, considering the cultural and historical links it has. It is important that we aware of our culture.

lmaopml wrote: »

No, it's not 'dying on it's ass to be fair..'

To be fair, it is people who don't excel at 'languages' that would like to see Irish 'die' on it's ass...and it will with boardsie posters like you who make 'excuses'...

I'm quite sure there are plenty of people who don't excel at math that would like to see it 'die a death' too.....and 'English' etc. etc.

+1
Personally, I am a "languages" person. My favourite subjects are English and Irish. I'm quite good at French. I have to do pass maths because I just can't handle the honours. Everyone has a little niche whether it be language-orientated or mathematical.
There has to be more open-mindedness regarding Irish. It's not the language that is the problem, it's the method of teaching.

Mec-a-nic

_meehan_ wrote: »

Take maths for example. Most people only require basic arithmetic to get them through life. Algebra is completely irrelevant unless one intends on becoming an engineer or something.

Algebra for Engineering!? All of the Engineers just snorted onto their screen, wondering why they had to do Differential Calculus for several years....

Not wanting to get off the Irish topic, maths is an 'international' language, and I think that if more people understood the use of algebra, they might be better able to handle money and logic, two skills sadly lacking in this country.