Would you actually prefer if the Irish language didnt exist?

Duckworth_Luas

Jonah42 wrote: »

What are you on about mate? No one should be forced to study any language that they don't need/want to know. That's the point.

"Forced"

ballsymchugh

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet the overall language usage has dropped since the 70's.

The amount of head in the sand BS around this subject is pretty much summed up thusly;
You really couldn't make this crap up. OK step back, if you will or can. Imagine going to France and imagine the people in France all spoke fluent Italian. A tiny percentage could speak French as a first language and a small percentage could speak it as a second language. The signs were in French and Italian, but French was the national language. Everything official had to be translated into it, but was unread by 90% of the population. You needed it for a few careers and college entry, but few were fluent in French. Confused? Eh yea

that's actually the case in quebec. the quebecois are a very vocal group and have slowly gotten things their way, from all the road signs being in french, to advertising having to be in french (or if bilingual, to have the french version more prominent) to their education system where newbies to quebec must send their kids to a french school. you can only avoid french school if your parents attended a non-french speaking school in quebec.

lmaopml

Jonah42 wrote: »

What are you on about mate? No one should be forced to study any language that they don't need/want to know. That's the point.

Did you know that 'math' is the universal language?

Still think the same thing?

..and I really really 'like' math..and value it's contribution as much as the introduction to 'languages' that learning Irish encourages..

..choices choices...let's just do what we really 'like' from the age of four always and we'll all choose math and science etc. 'spanish' would be foreign so ye know...unless the child likes 'Dora' than they never heard of it..hey ho! The right to choice makes for rounded education....eh? We'll just do what we're 'good' at....lol...

OPENROAD

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

"Forced"

Is it not the case if you want to go to the likes of UCD etc.. or have things changed?

Gunsfortoys

Wibbs wrote: »

You should take this debating lark up as a career. Your perspicacity and wit would stand you in good stead.

Your deliberation will serve you well should you pursue a career in politics.

Ickle Magoo

Wibbs wrote: »

Honestly? I don't. I really don't. I do worry about the large proportion of narrow minded eejits tasked with it's preservation. I worry about the chuckies who use it as a stick to exclude. I worry about the boggers who have the chip on their shoulder. I worry about the resources being spent on it. I worry about the schizoid take on our culture and it's narrowness. As for who fought and died IM, very very few of them were native Irish speakers. That apparently makes them and non Irish speakers somehow lesser and that most of all I call bollocks on.

I wasn't suggesting that those who fought and dies were Irish speakers, I don't know nor understand the whole shenanigans around those politics and the issue regarding promoting Irish, to an outsider at least, appears mostly political.

I'm just commenting as someone who is very, very much in the minority of being able to converse in my national language...IMO, as minority countries with an ancient and proud heritage, wiping out huge swathes of cultural uniqueness is not something we should be aiming for, regardless of politics.

Duckworth_Luas

OPENROAD wrote: »

Is it not the case if you want to go to the likes of UCD etc.. or have things changed?

Who "forced" you to go to UCD?

Amhran Nua

Wibbs wrote: »

Honestly? I don't. I really don't. I do worry about the large proportion of narrow minded eejits tasked with it's preservation. I worry about the chuckies who use it as a stick to exclude. I worry about the boggers who have the chip on their shoulder. I worry about the resources being spent on it. I worry about the schizoid take on our culture and it's narrowness. As for who fought and died IM, very very few of them were native Irish speakers. That apparently makes them and non Irish speakers somehow lesser and that most of all I call bollocks on.

So your problem isn't with the language, its with the cadre who have angry delusions about how the File and Seanchaí learned their trade?

Took a while to get there.

Wibbs

ShamoBuc wrote: »

"Since the 70's" - the gaelscoil movement has trebled in the last ten years - so yes to say the Irish language is on its ass is Utter Nonsense!

As long as Irish is spoken - it is alive!! The growth in the numbers of young people not only capable but proud to speak Irish is growing - and that can only be a good thing for Irish - it's been around for a long long long long time, it never went away, I don't think it ever will !
Deal with it!
Tá sé in am dul a chodladh,
go dtí an uair seo chugainn,
Oíche mhaith go léir

Yea yea chuck chuck chucky ar la, It's alive, blah blah.... I quote:

ftnbase wrote: »

As a matter of fact between 1985 and 2002 there was a reduction of 40% in the number of pupils in Gaeltacht National Schools who mastered the Irish language. English speaking schools were slightly better with a 36% reduction.

You do realise this schooling through Irish has been tried before? You do realise that more careers had Irish as a requirement before? If its so successful and thriving and supported by all or most Irish people why the hell are ye all so damned defensive and in need of government funding and propping up?

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Cinnte dearfá go bhfuil mé in ann sé sin a thuiscint, ráiméas ceart a bhí ann - an dtuigeann tú anois?
Slán

Nope no speako lingo. Well I get the gist. Good manners would include a translation though. I accept that may be a stretch for you, but worth a try anyway.

OPENROAD

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Who "forced" you to go to UCD?

Jonah42

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Who "forced" you to go to UCD?

Irish in the Leaving Cert is essential for a huge number of college courses. Even when the language has nothing to do with the course.

Learning Irish is fine, but making it compulsory in schools is a strategy which turns more people against the language (myself included) than it ever would have in the first place.

lmaopml

Wibbs wrote: »

Honestly? I don't. I really don't. I do worry about the large proportion of narrow minded eejits tasked with it's preservation. I worry about the chuckies who use it as a stick to exclude. I worry about the boggers who have the chip on their shoulder. I worry ..about the resources being spent on it. I worry about the schizoid take on our culture and it's narrowness. As for who fought and died IM, very very few of them were native Irish speakers. That apparently makes them and non Irish speakers somehow lesser and that most of all I call bollocks on.

Me too Wibbs. I hate the 'idealism' of it all....but it has nothing to do with the normal folk who place value on the language, and it's influence on learning languages in general in our education system..along with deeper understanding of culture and history - and not in a crazy republican way - not that 'republicans' are crazy..lol..but you know just in a 'normal' take it on the chin and absorb it way...

I don't think there is a better place to start and finish than with 'Irish' tbh...leaving aside all the 'fears' of what it represents and the divisive influences that some lay claim to...who cares about that?

It stands on it's own; and it is 'valuable' imo....all on it's own, as much as French or Spanish etc. even moreso, as an introduction and something that inspires learning...

Duckworth_Luas

OPENROAD wrote: »

:pac::rolleyes::pac:

Wibbs

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm just commenting as someone who is very, very much in the minority of being able to converse in my national language...IMO, as minority countries with an ancient and proud heritage, wiping out huge swathes of cultural uniqueness is not something we should be aiming for, regardless of politics.

Yea but that's the point IM, how is a very very small minority as you put it representative of the national? Irish is a part of our heritage, but it's just one part and a small one with it at this point, so why should the vast majority be forced or guilted into it?

OPENROAD

Jonah42 wrote: »

Irish in the Leaving Cert is essential for a huge number of college courses. Even when the language has nothing to do with the course.

Learning Irish is fine, but making it compulsory in schools is a strategy which turns more people against the language (myself included) than it ever would have in the first place.

+1

Change the teaching method, possibly keep it compulsory in primary school, then have it as a choice in secondary school.

wurzlitzer

Okay the irish language bashing brigade is out in all force
reasons why learning Irish is good for me and may be good for others

1. Identity
2. Learning a language helps you learn another ( I am learning Spanish or castellano if ya wanted to be all pedantic about it)
3. Fun if you just go with the flow, relax, resistance is futile
4. Useful to know abroad when you do not want anyone else knowing what the you are talking about ( it has gotten me out of sticky situations)
5. Learning a second language improves memory
6. Also broadens the mind makes you aware of your culture and heritage and makes you aware of other cultures
7. There are More jobs now in Irish than there ever was since TG4 and since Irish has been recognised as an official European language

If welsh can be revived, why not Irish

Mise le meas

Wurzlitzer




It's all good I tell ya

Mise le meas
Wurzlitzer

Duckworth_Luas

Jonah42 wrote: »

Irish in the Leaving Cert is essential for a huge number of college courses. Even when the language has nothing to do with the course.

Learning Irish is fine, but making it compulsory in schools is a strategy which turns more people against the language (myself included) than it ever would have in the first place.

Why do they want candidates who have navigated their way through the Irish course?

Wibbs

lmaopml wrote: »

It stands on it's own; and it is 'valuable' imo....all on it's own, as much as French or Spanish etc. even moreso, as an introduction and something that inspires learning...

Yea but lmaopml you can't have it both ways. It either "stands on its own" or it doesn't. It hasn't stood without a crutch in 90 years. It is valuable, but it needs a polish after it's contraction from it's more lauded past. Moreso than French or Spanish? Irish though I am, I can't agree, nor objectively take that too seriously a statement. 1000 years ago, yes, today, no way.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

You do realise this schooling through Irish has been tried before?

Can you provide a source for this, I haven't been able to find anything on it, You mentioned the 40's - 50's before, but I do know that there was only one Boys and one Girls Gaelscoil in Dublin in the 50's. So if that is what you are referring to, then its hardly comparable.

Wibbs

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So your problem isn't with the language, its with the cadre who have angry delusions about how the File and Seanchaí learned their trade?

Took a while to get there.

Not really. I said this early on on more than one thread on this damned subject. The chuckies/naive/language nazis chose to ignore it for the most part(but not all to be fair). Meh I'm out. Its damned boring at this stage "debating" with the usual crew. Some are so narrow minded they could look through a keyhole with both eyes at the same time.

Ickle Magoo

Wibbs wrote: »

Yea but that's the point IM, how is a very very small minority as you put it representative of the national? Irish is a part of our heritage, but it's just one part and a small one with it at this point, so why should the vast majority be forced or guilted into it?

Well, perhaps they shouldn't...perhaps my issue here is the same that I have with the scots - why don't they want to preserve their own cultural uniqueness?! Perhaps you are right, perhaps out-dated historical romantic is right but I think while there is scots gaelic and irish then there is some genuine ancient link to our pasts - if you willingly forgo that then I worry you too will end up regretting being left with just the same hollow-ringing shortcake-tin façade for the tourists.

I'm coming round to the conclusion that the Irish language has become the "whipping boy" all the problems Ireland has at the moment.
T'was no real discontent during the C***** ****r years.

Jonah42

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Why do they want candidates who have navigated their way through the Irish course?

I don't know why, especially while the language will never be used in 90%+ of the courses mentioned.

wolfpawnat

KeithAFC wrote: »

Fair enough. I hope i ain't reading it wrong that people are being forced to learn it though.

If at 8-9 my son comes to me and says he is not happy with being taught through Irish, of course I will listen, but the majority of people who hate Irish from school, hate it because of how it was taught. Those who are taught Irish in Gaelscoild learn it from just speaking it, making it easier and more interesting to learn.

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Did you do higher level maths? Lets chat about that. How often have you used your maths qualification? What about the poems of John Donne or any other English language poet?

I cannot for the life of me think of a scenario where I would need to use X+Y=Z find out the value of X!

I do enjoy looking over my old poetry book though!:o

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Multiple languages on the other hand have been shown to have positive effects on the development of the mind.

Studies show that children that are introduced to multiple languages at a young age are more likely to be able to learn more languages later in their academic life.

ShamoBuc

Wibbs wrote: »

Yea yea chuck chuck chucky ar la, It's alive, blah blah.... I quote: You do realise this schooling through Irish has been tried before? You do realise that more careers had Irish as a requirement before? If its so successful and thriving and supported by all or most Irish people why the hell are ye all so damned defensive and in need of government funding and propping up?

Nope no speako lingo. Well I get the gist. Good manners would include a translation though. I accept that may be a stretch for you, but worth a try anyway.

Why are you only quoting the fact that the number of children attending Galetacht national schools was falling ? You failed to mention the fact that the population in gaeltacht areas was also falling ? One kind of relies on the other don't you think?
There are still approximately 9000 kids going to school in Gaeltacht areas but you - selectively -left out the other 30,000 in Gaelscoils around the country and those numbers are rising! There's also secondary and those actually studying Irish at 3rd level of course, forgot them too?:rolleyes:

You want a translation for what I said..... no need, afterall you get the gist ( thought you would;))
Why don't you go learn the language - you obviously have a passion for it, embrace it, I'll even give you grinds - you might learn something - wouldn't that be nice!!

ShamoBuc

Wibbs wrote: »

Not really. I said this early on on more than one thread on this damned subject. The chuckies/naive/language nazis chose to ignore it for the most part(but not all to be fair). Meh I'm out. Its damned boring at this stage "debating" with the usual crew. Some are so narrow minded they could look through a keyhole with both eyes at the same time.

:D the definition of Pot Kettle Black fella!

Rodin

It's a national disgrace the way the national language has been treated and is viewed

Wow this one sprang up fast while I was away. I've made all my points in the FG thread, not going through them again. Wibbs, disappointed you went hammer and tongs into this thread, really liked the compromise position you came to in the other one.

I support public funding of support of the Irish language. I support the right of every parent to raise their children as they see fit, including sending them to a gaelscoil. I support reform of the teaching of the Irish language. And between active and benign supporters, I believe that the majority of Irish citizens support public funding of the Irish language.

coffeelover

I never really liked irish but when I was in Spain this Spanish guy started chatting me up as Gaeilge Couldn't believe it .. So now I'm glad irish exists :cool:

aDeener

Wibbs wrote: »

Honestly? I don't. I really don't. I do worry about the large proportion of narrow minded eejits tasked with it's preservation. I worry about the chuckies who use it as a stick to exclude. I worry about the boggers who have the chip on their shoulder. I worry about the resources being spent on it. I worry about the schizoid take on our culture and it's narrowness. As for who fought and died IM, very very few of them were native Irish speakers. That apparently makes them and non Irish speakers somehow lesser and that most of all I call bollocks on.

now in all fucking fairness you are the last to be giving off about chips on shoulders. you're as bad as mike1972