Bouncers?

VNP · 31-01-2011 1:52am

Im not surprised Bouncers get a bad rap they have to listen to the same crap music every night inside, or total and utter fools at a door, and some dcikhead managers breathing down their neck, they're usually double jobbing, not the best conditions for bubbly personalitys

seanybiker · 31-01-2011 1:52am

leggo wrote: »

Haha lad, stop trolling. I've often been told I'd make a great garda because I've a lot of nice, clean arrests and a good ability to keep the head in serious situations, and I even have some great contacts in the force, but Jesus Christ it's the last job on earth I'd do. It's the most thankless, horrible job where you're ritualistically ****ed over by the state or your own industry. Security is grand because you leave the job as soon as you clock out (unless you get too involved, which some lads do).

Sure it's a fall back for people who don't get into the army or gardai, but don't tar everyone with the same brush.

Is it true that if an off duty cop is on the premises and there is no bouncers on then the owners/management can ask the cop to get rid of someone acting the sack. Me twin brother was asked to get rid of some plonker a while back in his local and he did even though he was off duty. I presume its ok if he just left me man act the sack or does he have to act on the request of the bar?

*edit* yes I know your not a cop its just the talk of cops in your reply reminded of this

TrollHammaren · 31-01-2011 1:53am

steddyeddy wrote: »

I never had trouble with bouncers except one last week but I find if if say "howya man", act confident and make eye contact with the bouncers their usually grand. Some of my mates however walk in with their heads down afraid of making eye contact ect and the bouncers pick them out, its not that their bad people their just lacking in confidence and unfortunatly that trait has seen them being refused entry.

That's a shame, because I could see how some people could interpret that as guilt. The best thing to do is to advise your mates to state their case in a friendly manner.

Oranage2 wrote: »

Well most punters think there's only a few bad ones but this type of job attracts certain individuals - These guys are wanna be garda but are to stupid so they have a chips on their shoulders!

Also most bouncers want trouble to kick off because they get a kick out of beating up some guy with their karate thats so intoxicated he can hardly walk never mind try defend himself when one of these monkeys and stamping in the head whilst he's on the ground!

What an amazing insight you have there. That's me down to a tee; you're obviously very clever.

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Has anyone ever been told to go get a coffee by bouncers? It seems to be what they've been saying to be me lately.
I don't even drink coffee, so I usually just have to go to the shop and buy chewing gum or something and when I arrive back they usually let me in with a few wise words like, "take it easy in there tonight". It's quite nice to know they really do care about me though.

If I refuse someone or ask them to leave for being too drunk I usually tell them to go get a bag of chips, and come back later if they've sobered up. This has a psychological element as well - it's letting them know they've a second chance and not to **** it up. It usually works.

Wolfe Tone · 31-01-2011 1:54am

Whats the law anyway with regard to Bouncers physically touching you anyways? They are civilians so I wager they are treated the same as you or I in the eyes of the law?

I must look it up

leggo · 31-01-2011 1:56am

Is it true that if an off duty cop is on the premises and there is no bouncers on then the owners/management can ask the cop to get rid of someone acting the sack. Me twin brother was asked to get rid of some plonker a while back in his local and he did even though he was off duty. I presume its ok if he just left me man act the sack or does he have to act on the request of the bar?

It's strange for an off-duty Garda to do so, but yes if there is no security available then the only procedure for a venue to deal with punters acting the bollix is to get the Gardai involved. Don't get me wrong, the manager can't boss the Gardai around the way he could a bouncer in his employment, but he hands over the case to them and they deal with it as appropriate.

steddyeddy · 31-01-2011 1:57am

That's a shame, because I could see how some people could interpret that as guilt. The best thing to do is to advise your mates to state their case in a friendly manner.

Ah yes I was faltering anyone it could easily be interpreted as guilt or trying to sneak in

seanybiker · 31-01-2011 1:58am

leggo wrote: »

It's strange for an off-duty Garda to do so, but yes if there is no security available then the only procedure for a venue to deal with punters acting the bollix is to get the Gardai involved. Don't get me wrong, the manager can't boss the Gardai around the way he could a bouncer in his employment, but he hands over the case to them and they deal with it as appropriate.

Ah it was the brothers local anytime he is home from work he is always down there so the lads knew he was a guard.

TrollHammaren · 31-01-2011 1:58am

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Whats the law anyway with regard to Bouncers physically touching you anyways? They are civilians so I wager they are treated the same as you or I in the eyes of the law?

I must look it up

You're entilted to the exact same level of physical contact as any other civilian, although I'd be lying if I were to tell you I know the exact laws. I'll ask my sister; she's a law student :-P

Basically, if you can justify it in court, you can do it. If someone refuses to leave the nightclub/bar/venue, you can physically remove them, as long as you're confident that you can do so without harming them.

leggo · 31-01-2011 2:01am

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Whats the law anyway with regard to Bouncers physically touching you anyways? They are civilians so I wager they are treated the same as you or I in the eyes of the law?

I must look it up

'Reasonable force' is the phrase you're looking for. Basically we can do whatever it takes to restrain you and protect ourselves.

If you're talking about arrests, then we can extend that use of force somewhat to ensure that you remain detained and not a risk to yourself/others. But arrests are a messy business. If we get it wrong and use ANY kind of force against you, that's a lawsuit, possible charges for false imprisonment and our job almost certainly gone.

Once the above boxes are ticked, any added force is considered assault.

seanybiker · 31-01-2011 2:03am

leggo wrote: »

'Reasonable force' is the phrase you're looking for. Basically we can do whatever it takes to restrain you and protect ourselves.

If you're talking about arrests, then we can extend that use of force somewhat to ensure that you remain detained and not a risk to yourself/others. But arrests are a messy business. If we get it wrong and use ANY kind of force against you, that's a lawsuit, possible charges for false imprisonment and our job almost certainly gone.

Once the above boxes are ticked, any added force is considered assault.

Citizens arrest?

TrollHammaren · 31-01-2011 2:06am

I know all about reasonable force and citizens arrest; I mean the actual legislation.

jugger0 · 31-01-2011 2:07am

Had a bad run in with a bouncer once, he was a ****! but to be honest if your not actin the bollocks theres no problem... you should see what they're like in portugal:eek:

seanybiker · 31-01-2011 2:08am

TrollHammaren wrote: »

I know all about reasonable force and citizens arrest; I mean the actual legislation.

I was only asking was that what he meant.

mixed up · 31-01-2011 2:09am

I think most bouncers are w**kers, the most of them are perverts who will never stop a woman as long as she is wearing a short skirt and tight top.They tend to stop men just to make themselves feel important.

Wolfe Tone · 31-01-2011 2:10am

leggo wrote: »

'Reasonable force' is the phrase you're looking for. Basically we can do whatever it takes to restrain you and protect ourselves.

If you're talking about arrests, then we can extend that use of force somewhat to ensure that you remain detained and not a risk to yourself/others. But arrests are a messy business. If we get it wrong and use ANY kind of force against you, that's a lawsuit, possible charges for false imprisonment and our job almost certainly gone.

Once the above boxes are ticked, any added force is considered assault.

Im a law student myself so I should know this! :P

I was refering to a situation where I have done no wrong, any physical contact is assault, so along the civil route I would be heading down the Assault, false imprisonment route.

'Reasonable force' is the phrase you're looking for. Basically we can do whatever it takes to restrain you and protect ourselves.

Basically, thats wrong. If I hit you a dig, you can do the bare minimum to protect yourself, its not open season.

What I was getting at is whether or not bouncers have any "rights" above that of the ordinary citizen. Considering security officers don't I will assume bouncers would be the same.

Whats the statutory backing for dragging someone out? Would the correct legal thing not be to call the Gards to have the punter removed?

Oranage2 · 31-01-2011 2:11am

You think bouncers know the law? Don't make me laugh!!!

Bouncers know they can do anything they like because the Gards don't want to deal with drunk people so a guy gets bashed and bouncers just tells Gard that he fell and Gard doesn't care because he doesnt want to go back to the station and write up a report.

leggo · 31-01-2011 2:26am

seanybiker wrote: »

Citizens arrest?

You're after putting me on the spot there. There is legislation that gives powers of arrest and detention to security guards in special circumstances (namely retail as opposed to bouncers in cases of theft, damage of property etc, but bouncers can also do so if a serious crime occurs on their sites). I can't think of the exact act off the top of my head now but it's in there somewhere. Sorry it's been a while since I took the PSA test!

Im a law student myself so I should know this!

And I do this for a full-time living instead of recession-dodging in college so I should know it better!

I was refering to a situation where I have done no wrong, any physical contact is assault, so along the civil route I would be heading down the Assault, false imprisonment route.

There's a few factors you need to take into account here, before you do go down the legal route.

Firstly, why didn't you go down to the station immediately? I assume if they roughed you up a badly as you say then you'd have had the scars to prove it?

Secondly, why haven't you done anything about it sooner? There must be CCTV if this took place outside a nightclub, it's an open-and-shut case, and a merciless assault isn't just something we put off to get a few extra hours kip in bed. Something doesn't add up.

Thirdly, taking your case at face value, the bouncers in question would obviously be much better acquainted with the CCTV system than you. So why would they attack you, unprovoked, on camera? And they would have likely had to have written incident reports following the fracas...where their story would have probably been corroborated (it's not legal but it's safe enough to assume) to paint you as the guilty party. So are you sure you've any actual evidence that this happened as you do? And do you have enough to make the Gardai get off their arse and investigate? Keep in mind that almost every Joe Schmo who has a run-in with a bouncer tries to get one over on them by crying about the law.

If you've got good answers to the above questions, then what are you waiting for? Go to the Gardai and stop hurting your case by discussing an open legal matter on a public message board!

Basically, thats wrong. If I hit you a dig, you can do the bare minimum to protect yourself, its not open season.

What I was getting at is whether or not bouncers have any "rights" above that of the ordinary citizen. Considering security officers don't I will assume bouncers would be the same.

And that's exactly why the term 'Reasonable force' is important. That's our bible. We're covered by the law to facilitate us to do our jobs...anything outside of the law should be caused by us having to protect ourselves, the staff, customers, stock and property of the person employing us because the guilty party is attempting to assault us or commit a crime. And the 'Reasonable force' in question is the line.

No we can't beat the **** out of you if you hit us a dig, but we can restrain you. If you continue to attack us, we can then hit you back if we can justify doing so as our last resort of self-defence. And so on and so forth.

Like I said, anything BEYOND that is assault.

If I had to guess based on the line of your questioning (and that's all this is...a guess...), I'd say you're not as innocent as you claim to be. Why are you asking me what a bouncer can do if you throw a punch at him?

seanybiker · 31-01-2011 2:29am

leggo wrote: »

You're after putting me on the spot there. There is legislation that gives powers of arrest and detention to security guards in special circumstances (namely retail as opposed to bouncers in cases of theft, damage of property etc, but bouncers can also do so if a serious crime occurs on their sites). I can't think of the exact act off the top of my head now but it's in there somewhere. Sorry it's been a while since I took the PSA test!

ah right so yes there is a certain bit of extra power for want of a better word as opposed to a normal citizens arrest.

Wolfe Tone · 31-01-2011 2:34am

leggo wrote: »

You're after putting me on the spot there. There is legislation that gives powers of arrest and detention to security guards in special circumstances (namely retail as opposed to bouncers in cases of theft, damage of property etc, but bouncers can also do so if a serious crime occurs on their sites). I can't think of the exact act off the top of my head now but it's in there somewhere. Sorry it's been a while since I took the PSA test!

As far as I know they are the same as the ordinary citizen, and if you falsely arrest someone you are fcuked completely.

There's a few factors you need to take into account here, before you do go down the legal route.

Im not talking about myself here at all......

Secondly, why haven't you done anything about it sooner? There must be CCTV if this took place outside a nightclub, it's an open-and-shut case, and a merciless assault isn't just something we put off to get a few extra hours kip in bed. Something doesn't add up.

Ive been to the Gardaí.....

And that's exactly why the term 'Reasonable force' is important. That's our bible. We're covered by the law to facilitate us to do our jobs...anything outside of the law should be caused by us having to protect ourselves, the staff, customers, stock and property of the person employing us because the guilty party is attempting to assault us or commit a crime. And the 'Reasonable force' in question is the line.

But what if a person refuses to leave? We have all seen people being dragged out, whats the statutory backing for that?

No we can't beat the **** out of you if you hit us a dig, but we can restrain you. If you continue to attack us, we can then hit you back if we can justify doing so as our last resort of self-defence. And so on and so forth.

Like I said, anything BEYOND that is assault.

Yeah, so basically the same as Joe Bloggs can in the street.

If I had to guess based on the line of your questioning (and that's all this is...a guess...), I'd say you're not as innocent as you claim to be. Why are you asking me what a bouncer can do if you throw a punch at him?

I wasnt referencing my own experiences here at all, I was in law student mode

And I seriously could not be arsed suing a nightclub or whatever firm they get the security from.

TrollHammaren · 31-01-2011 2:35am

seanybiker wrote: »

I was only asking was that what he meant.

Yeah, sorry, that comment was addressed to the "reasonable force" comment, I should have made that clearer.

mixed up wrote: »

I think most bouncers are w**kers, the most of them are perverts who will never stop a woman as long as she is wearing a short skirt and tight top.They tend to stop men just to make themselves feel important.

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seanybiker wrote: »

ah right so yes there is a certain bit of extra power for want of a better word as opposed to a normal citizens arrest.

I think leggo would know better than I would (I would fúckin hope so!), but I don't think it constitutes as "extra power". As far as I'm aware, any civilian can detain someone if they've committed a serious crime, but it's a legal minefield.

I-Shot-Jr · 31-01-2011 2:36am

Tessa Huge Registrar wrote: »

I'd be surprised if there's a pub or club in Dublin City without security camera's outside.

To the poster who said his mate told him the shots are being called by someone viewing the camera, tell your mate he's a spoofer.

I'd be more inclined to take his word for it! I believe another poster has agreed with me that that is the case in certain nightclubs.

TrollHammaren · 31-01-2011 2:39am

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

But what if a person refuses to leave? We have all seen people being dragged out, whats the statutory backing for that?

Again, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure even a shopkeeper can physically remove you from his/her store if you've put the safety of yourself, the place, or the other people in the place in danger. Doormen are just hired specifically for duties that include removing patrons behaving in this manner.

seanybiker · 31-01-2011 2:41am

TrollHammaren wrote: »

I think leggo would know better than I would (I would fúckin hope so!), but I don't think it constitutes as "extra power". As far as I'm aware, any civilian can detain someone if they've committed a serious crime, but it's a legal minefield.

haha might be different though if bouncers can hold a person there till the cops arrive, I cant imagine us mere mortals being allowed do that but as you said its a legal minefield.
I dont envy the job at all. one of the lads I know used to bounce here in town and in the end he gave up because the head bouncers where telling him who to leave in and not leave in and he got tired of refusing his friends so just quit.

Wolfe Tone · 31-01-2011 2:43am

seanybiker wrote: »

haha might be different though if bouncers can hold a person there till the cops arrive, I cant imagine us mere mortals being allowed do that but as you said its a legal minefield.
I dont envy the job at all. one of the lads I know used to bounce here in town and in the end he gave up because the head bouncers where telling him who to leave in and not leave in and he got tired of refusing his friends so just quit.

No they cant, unless the person has committed a crime and they have proof of such, otherwise thats assault, defamation, false imprisonment and a nice check for the victim.

And the offence must carry the possibility of five years imprisonment on a first conviction for a citizens arrest to be made.

mixed up · 31-01-2011 2:43am

TrollHammaren wrote: »

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I guess you're a bouncer and like to feel important

seanybiker · 31-01-2011 2:46am

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

No they cant, unless the person has committed a crime and they have proof of such, otherwise thats assault, defamation, false imprisonment and a nice check for the victim.

ah thats where i was getting mixed up.
Shop i used to work in the manager was mad. some knacker was in robbing one day so he went to bring her to the managers office so he could ring the cops and get her sorted. on the way to the office she spat in his face. there was a knacker womans face print in the plaster wall. i know yeah he shouldn't have done that but I couldnt help giggle when i found out what the bang was.

TrollHammaren · 31-01-2011 2:49am

mixed up wrote: »

I guess you're a bouncer and like to feel important

Yes, I'm a doorman. I feel no sense of superiority, or a need to gratify myself by letting a bunch of skin-flaunting, attention-seeking women in while refusing men.

So, what's more likely; that I'm a power tripper whose job makes him feel important, or that you perceive some sort of power in my job and feel that people are attracted to it because they can abuse it? Mixed_up, if you want to become a bouncer, you just have to ask

leggo · 31-01-2011 2:51am

It's not so much extra 'power' than a citizen's arrest...just legislation to give us the necessary leeway to do our job. The law is still massively against us thanks to years of unlegislated security giving the industry a bad name.

As regards removing people from nightclubs, again that is a grey area covered by the 'Reasonable force' blanket. Our job is to 'escort' them from the nightclub. Ideally this would involve no force. However, if they resist it then it becomes reasonable to escort them by the arm, and the more they resist the more leeway they give us.

It IS such a grey area, though, that it's almost not worth going down. One wrong step can see you **** your job up. This is why you attempt to talk to them like a reasonable person first and foremost (a lot of bouncers will insist this doesn't work...I insist it works better than you would think), THEN use any available back-up to outnumber them and make resisting it not worth their while, THEN escort them out. If it becomes more hassle than it's worth, just cover your arse and call the Gardai.

And you'd have a tough time making any claims stick if you are in the wrong to begin with. In other words, they'd have to beat the living **** out of you while your mates and innocent bystanders witnessed. In this day and age, that rarely happens.

Wolfe Tone · 31-01-2011 2:57am

Please point out said legislation.

mixed up · 31-01-2011 2:59am

TrollHammaren wrote: »

Yes, I'm a doorman. I feel no sense of superiority, or a need to gratify myself by letting a bunch of skin-flaunting, attention-seeking women in while refusing men.

So, what's more likely; that I'm a power tripper whose job makes him feel important, or that you perceive some sort of power in my job and feel that people are attracted to it because they can abuse it? Mixed_up, if you want to become a bouncer, you just have to ask

I don't want to be a bouncer but thanks all the same i think i'll just enjoy myself in the nightclubs instead of standing at a door all night trying to convince myself i'm important.

Bouncers?

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