3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Morpheus

nowecant wrote: »

Somebody updated the wikipedia page with this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Service_(Ireland)



It references a Sunday Times artical which I only have partial access to http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/News/article1577106.ece



Has anyone got access to the Sunday Times? can they confirm this or post the contents of the article here?

full article was posted here on boards:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96144959&postcount=1108
here it is

HE government is planning to buy a long-range radar system to keep track of covert aircraft such as the two Russian TU-95s which flew across Irish-controlled international airspace in January, defence minister Simon Coveney has confirmed, writes Stephen O’Brien.

The increased capability is recommended in a white paper due to be presented at cabinet later this month. It offers a radical reassessment of the military and other threats faced by the state.

Cyber attacks, extreme weather events, environmental accidents, and Islamic terrorism are among the threats being given a higher priority in defence planning, Coveney has told The Sunday Times.

“The white paper assesses the range, variety and complexity of traditional threats, but also looks at all the new threats,” he said. “Organised crime, people trafficking, piracy, animal disease outbreaks — these are things people don’t talk about every day. But if they happen, people will be demanding the Defence Forces are there as the last line of defence.

“We have worked with other government departments to assess the threats to Ireland that we need a defence infrastructure to deal with. The probability of a conventional military attack on Ireland’s territory is assessed as low, [but] recent events have highlighted the security environment can be volatile and unpredictable.”

The new radar system for the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) would cost up to €10m. Coveney said he will hold discussions with Brendan Howlin, the public expenditure minister, about making the investment in military hardware that is recommended in the new defence plan.

The white paper calls for the purchase of three new naval vessels over the next 10 years, including a frigate with helicopter-landing capability to replace LE Eithne, the flagship. Two naval offshore patrol vessels would cost about €140m, and one frigate upwards of €150m.

Coveney also wants to replace much of the Air Corps fleet over the next decade, including the two Casa maritime patrol planes. He also wants an overhaul of the army’s fleet of armoured personnel carriers, but he declined to say how many vehicles were likely to be replaced over the timeframe covered by the white paper.

Coveney said a new radar system would give better coverage of the Atlantic airspace over which the IAA has responsibility.

Two Russian Tu-95s — known as ‘Bear’ bombers — flew to within 50 nautical miles of the Irish coast on January 28, but the IAA was unaware until alerted by British colleagues.

The white paper will call for the strength of the Reserve Defence Force to be raised to 4,000 from the current 2,200. Coveney hopes to attract a greater range of skills into the RDF including medical, IT and other specialist skills.

Larbre34

So, L.É. William Butler Yeats, P63 is to be.

Its appropriate in many ways, especially if she is delivered in time for the 'Easter 1916' centenary

Better re-spec the powerplant to cope with those nameplates

BowWow

http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Release+ID/46AB2DC6A89AC21080257E8A005D2774?OpenDocument

I did not see that coming......

Ren2k7

Will there be any relatives waiting in the wings to oppose this naming like the last ship?

mikeym

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Will there be any relatives waiting in the wings to oppose this naming like the last ship?

The Le Macha carried the remains of W.B Yeats back to Ireland from France in 1948. So I dont see any problem.

roundymac

mikeym wrote: »

The Le Macha carried the remains of W.B Yeats back to Ireland from France in 1948. So I dont see any problem.

Unless there is a DNA test done on the remains there will always be a doubt as to whether it is his remains. Hopefully it is.

Larbre34

Just spotted LE JJ departing Dun Laoghaire, not sure when she arrived. Any word on the commissioning?

Tabnabs

Early September I hear.

nowecant

Naval Service to broaden horizons by flying kites


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/naval-service-to-broaden-horizons-by-flying-kites-1.2297873

Might be of interest to some here

ted1

nowecant wrote: »

Naval Service to broaden horizons by flying kites


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/naval-service-to-broaden-horizons-by-flying-kites-1.2297873

Might be of interest to some here

It's going to be messy. The wind range will be very small. It'll be totally unreliable

Based on my 15 years experience of kitesurfing

Morpheus

The Kite Sail is computer controlled. One such company SkySails already produces them for cargo vessels. The Irish navy proposes putting a small suite of sensors under the sky sail, the main purpose however will be a combination of fuel saving - thus extending un refuelled range - and an increase in surveillance ranges.

No offence but comparing a kite used in kite surfing with a sail designed to pull thousands of tons of ship under computer controlled flight is a tad simplified.

have a look here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rOzwIlwQPk

ted1

Morpheus wrote: »

No offence but comparing a kite used in kite surfing with a sail designed to pull thousands of tons of ship under computer controlled flight is a tad simplified.

Its not really. Even the promotional video you linked to starts off with kitesurfing.

how small do you think the kites will be to pull thousands of tons of ship? it takes a 12m kite to pull a 95kg kite surfer on a average day.

what happens on days when there's no wind. to little wind, to much wind. to gusty etc.

Larbre34

Why are we talking about "pulling" the ship? The kites are just a platform to elevate the sensors and increase the range aren't they?

Heraldoffreeent

Larbre34 wrote: »

Why are we talking about "pulling" the ship? The kites are just a platform to elevate the sensors and increase the range aren't they?

No, they're being looked at as a propulsion system too.

return guide

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

No, they're being looked at as a propulsion system too.

Do you have a link, as the IT article only reports kites being potentially used to extend surveillance ranges of the naval vessels.

RG

Heraldoffreeent

return guide wrote: »

Do you have a link, as the IT article only reports kites being potentially used to extend surveillance ranges of the naval vessels.

RG

Here you go.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/naval-service-in-historic-kite-sail-tests-256600.html

"the kites will provide the added bonus of also reducing fuel bills, especially as the Naval Service uses around 40% of the fuel allocated to the Defence Forces.

When in use they could provide speeds of up to eight knots, which is as fast as an average trawler."

ted1

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Here you go.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/naval-service-in-historic-kite-sail-tests-256600.html

"the kites will provide the added bonus of also reducing fuel bills, especially as the Naval Service uses around 40% of the fuel allocated to the Defence Forces.

When in use they could provide speeds of up to eight knots, which is as fast as an average trawler."

The article also states it uses a 20 m kite. That would be big enough to pull a ship.

Have a look at project.kiteboat.com and you'll see the size kite they use and then
Compare boat size to the navies

Tabnabs

I'm a bit sceptical about this "invention". A ship steaming along will create her own headwind, so unless you slow right down and let the para-sail/kite pull you along (at very low speeds) it's not going to augment speed from the engines. Even then, you are assuming the wind is behind you. Doesn't sound very practical in real life. I would have thought a drone/uav would be more useful for over the horizon type surveillance.

ted1

Larbre34 wrote: »

Why are we talking about "pulling" the ship? The kites are just a platform to elevate the sensors and increase the range aren't they?

A helium balloon or hot air balloon will do that and would need zero investment in R and D

Larbre34

Think I just slept through to April 1st. How big of a kite would you need to tow a 2,000 ton vessel from a standing start, assuming a constant windspeed and bearing? Might as well just put a mast on her and hoist some sails, at least they wont collapse when the wind dies down.

Ren2k7

Morpheus wrote: »

The Kite Sail is computer controlled. One such company SkySails already produces them for cargo vessels. The Irish navy proposes putting a small suite of sensors under the sky sail, the main purpose however will be a combination of fuel saving - thus extending un refuelled range - and an increase in surveillance ranges.

No offence but comparing a kite used in kite surfing with a sail designed to pull thousands of tons of ship under computer controlled flight is a tad simplified.

have a look here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rOzwIlwQPk

Wait, are we really talking about using kites to haul a Beckett class vessel?! Good grief! Either they're planning on using a big ass sail or intending only to gain a few knots at most in additional propulsion. But the NS is using these kites in a primarily surveillance role, any talk of using them for propulsion needs to be knocked on the head or we'll be regarded as a holy laughing stock of the international community. "Oh look everyone, there goes Paddy unable to afford diesel for its ships." :rolleyes:

Heraldoffreeent

Larbre34 wrote: »

Think I just slept through to April 1st. How big of a kite would you need to tow a 2,000 ton vessel from a standing start, assuming a constant windspeed and bearing? Might as well just put a mast on her and hoist some sails, at least they wont collapse when the wind dies down.

Seems a bit flakey al-right, I can only imagine that if a ship is loitering or has favourable winds then the kite sail would be a brucey bonus after the diesels or the PTI.

Markcheese

I have no idea of the tech involved in the kites- if they can get it to work... brilliant .
I assume there's some way of trimming the kite to get traction without needing the wind to come from directly behind you-
Also if your going into a head wind and have the kite up for sensors ,you'll end up towing the kite- and using extra diesel to do it !!
Of course if the sensor kite gives the radar range that their talking about it'll make the navy much more effective and mean a change of deployment to make best use of the extra information-

ted1

Markcheese wrote: »

I have no idea of the tech involved in the kites- if they can get it to work... brilliant .
I assume there's some way of trimming the kite to get traction without needing the wind to come from directly behind you-
Also if your going into a head wind and have the kite up for sensors ,you'll end up towing the kite- and using extra diesel to do it !!
Of course if the sensor kite gives the radar range that their talking about it'll make the navy much more effective and mean a change of deployment to make best use of the extra information-

Kites can go up wind you'll have to tack a it , just fly it to the edge of the wind window and pilot the boat up wind.
With kites you have 2 steering lines and two power lines. Pulling the kite by either of the back corner will turn it. Lengthening or shortening the front lines changes the AOA (angle of attack )of the kite and reduces/ increases the power.
Move the kite in a figure of 8 or like a sine wave generates more power as your using the apparent wind.

Yawlboy

What about one of these as the Eithne replacement?

http://www.janes.com/article/53644/pt-pal-outlines-weapons-fit-for-philippine-navy-ssvs

sparky42

Yawlboy wrote: »

What about one of these as the Eithne replacement?

http://www.janes.com/article/53644/pt-pal-outlines-weapons-fit-for-philippine-navy-ssvs

Too big for the Cobh Dockyard, and would she fit into the Basin? Not too mention her low speed as well. And let's be honest we would never be using the Landing Craft.

Boreas

sparky42 wrote: »

Too big for the Cobh Dockyard, and would she fit into the Basin? Not too mention her low speed as well. And let's be honest we would never be using the Landing Craft.

All true, plus I can't see us buying anything from outside Europe.

Having said that I suppose the NS would find a ship of this type (including the landing craft) useful in the Mediterranean, although hopefully a long term solution will be found there.

Heraldoffreeent

Yawlboy wrote: »

What about one of these as the Eithne replacement?

http://www.janes.com/article/53644/pt-pal-outlines-weapons-fit-for-philippine-navy-ssvs

Depends on price and seakeeping.

Wiki says the Indonesian Makasser (on which these are based ) cost about $45m, albeit in 2006, which sounds pretty good.

However, the Eithne replacement is being touted as "Frigate sized" or "Frigate like" and this is an LPD. It seems to be capable of moving 500 pax, which maybe more than we need, 200 I think was the number mentioned for the EPV.

Also, we need to remember that the ship planned will spend at least 80% of its life patrolling up to 200 miles out in the North Atlantic, I'm not sure that this ship[(similar to the HMNZS Cant) would fare well out there.

Yawlboy

The original plan when the P6x's were ordered was for the Navy to get an "Extended Patrol Vessel" (EPV).
A helicopter capable large vessel that could be used for humanitarian relief work and as part of the European Rapid Reaction Force.
With Minister Coveney mentioning new ships recently and with Eithne and the Peacocks due for replacement within 5 years perhaps we will see something similar to this?

Boreas

Yawlboy wrote: »

The original plan when the P6x's were ordered was for the Navy to get an "Extended Patrol Vessel" (EPV).
A helicopter capable large vessel that could be used for humanitarian relief work and as part of the European Rapid Reaction Force.
With Minister Coveney mentioning new ships recently and with Eithne and the Peacocks due for replacement within 5 years perhaps we will see something similar to this?

Maybe something like this http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/crossover which other here or on IMO have mentioned.