Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

dublin runner

Hey. Great improvements, well done.

I am aiming for a similar target in Rotterdam this April having completed Dublin in 2.58. For me personally peaking at 70 miles would not be enough but it can be done. It's hard for me to give advice having not yet gone under the 2.50 mark but I would say it is a realistic target but will require a very structured, well executed plan. For me I'll be peaking around the 100mpw. Having said all that, I will need to hit a sub 1.20 HM to have a realistic chance.

Krusty_Clown

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Was just wondering if anyone could help me with a couple of questions. I have been running for just over 3 years. Have ran 4 marathons in that time. Times were as follows. DCM2011 h3:41:51 DCM2012 h3:13:27 Paris2013 h3:08:31 DCM2013 2:59:26

Am now looking at the Belfast marathon in May for my next race. Question is, is it realistic to aim to cut 10 minutes off my PB set in Dublin this year or is it a bit ambitious? I suppose im looking to know what realistic time gains from 1 marathon to another should be once you get to this level.

Also I followed the 113km peak program from Advanced Marathoning 2 for my my last race in Dublin. Should I be stepping up to the next level with the increased milage or just do the same amount of milage but at a higher intensity?

Thanks in advance!

I can only speak from my personal experience, but 10 minutes should be achievable at that level. While I've never done it myself, many on this forum have been there, or thereabouts. My own progression was (based typically on two marathons per year): 3:25:14 -> 3:22:52 -> 3:00:50 -> 2:55:16 -> 2:48:12 -> 2:48:10 (hot) -> 2:46:41 (missed goal marathon due to heat) -> 2:43:21 -> 2:38:50 -> 2:38:31.

Others have done this in just 2/3 steps, so certainly possible to achieve these kinds of goals. The only concern I'd have is the amount of time you have given yourself for that kind of improvement. I'm not entirely sure that running the same program (with greater miles and/or intensity) will give you the kind of gains you need to make a 10 minute jump in that time-frame, but thankfully, we're all uniquely different.

What you should really be asking yourself is this: for your last two marathons, you made gains of 5 minutes and 8 minutes. What are you going to do differently this time around, that will yield a significantly greater improvement? If, like me, the typical process is to continually follow marathon programs while ramping-up the mileage and the intensity, then at some point, you will likely begin to plateau. Sometimes you need to break the marathon cycle, to find positive improvements.

sub3wannabe

dublin runner wrote: »

Hey. Great improvements, well done.

I am aiming for a similar target in Rotterdam this April having completed Dublin in 2.58. For me personally peaking at 70 miles would not be enough but it can be done. It's hard for me to give advice having not yet gone under the 2.50 mark but I would say it is a realistic target but will require a very structured, well executed plan. For me I'll be peaking around the 100mpw. Having said all that, I will need to hit a sub 1.20 HM to have a realistic chance.

Thanks and good luck with your own goals!

sub3wannabe

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I can only speak from my personal experience, but 10 minutes should be achievable at that level. While I've never done it myself, many on this forum have been there, or thereabouts. My own progression was (based typically on two marathons per year): 3:25:14 -> 3:22:52 -> 3:00:50 -> 2:55:16 -> 2:48:12 -> 2:48:10 (hot) -> 2:46:41 (missed goal marathon due to heat) -> 2:43:21 -> 2:38:50 -> 2:38:31.

Others have done this in just 2/3 steps, so certainly possible to achieve these kinds of goals. The only concern I'd have is the amount of time you have given yourself for that kind of improvement. I'm not entirely sure that running the same program (with greater miles and/or intensity) will give you the kind of gains you need to make a 10 minute jump in that time-frame, but thankfully, we're all uniquely different.

What you should really be asking yourself is this: for your last two marathons, you made gains of 5 minutes and 8 minutes. What are you going to do differently this time around, that will yield a significantly greater improvement? If, like me, the typical process is to continually follow marathon programs while ramping-up the mileage and the intensity, then at some point, you will likely begin to plateau. Sometimes you need to break the marathon cycle, to find positive improvements.

Cheers Krusty and fair play on those times, very impressive!

The only thing I think I can do is like you, ramp up miles/intensity. I here what you're saying with regards to plateauing, I guess generic programes can take me into the 2:30's and then I might consider getting a coach or something.

Do you mind me asking you what your peak weekly milage was when you ran 2:48:12? Do you think id need to step up to the 85miles per week program in AM2 to have a realistic shot? iyo what target time would you advise, is the risk of injury/burnout trying to shave 10minutes off in 6 months too high?

drquirky

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Cheers Krusty and fair play on those times, very impressive!

Do you mind me asking you what your peak weekly milage was when you ran 2:48:12? Do you think id need to step up to the 85miles per week program in AM2 to have a realistic shot. iyo what target time would you advise?

I think it is different for everyone- I recently ran 2:50:xx in Budapest off max 65/70 mpw- hard to have a one size fits all approach

sub3wannabe

drquirky wrote: »

I think it is different for everyone- I recently ran 2:50:xx in Budapest off max 65/70 mpw- hard to have a one size fits all approach

Nice! One guy says he needs 100mpw and another says 70mpw hmm decisions decisions. I guess though if i peaked at 70mpw for 2:59:26 then surely intenity increase alone wouldn't be sufficiant, id need to add miles?

drquirky

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Nice! One guy says he needs 100mpw and another says 70mpw hmm decisions decisions. I guess though if i peaked at 70mpw for 2:59:26 then surely intenity increase alone wouldn't be sufficiant, id need to add miles?

Remember there is a cumulative component to the work you're doing- it adds up. So many variables though - what kinda shorter distance times do you run, ie 5k 10k?

dublin runner

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Nice! One guy says he needs 100mpw and another says 70mpw hmm decisions decisions. I guess though if i peaked at 70mpw for 2:59:26 then surely intenity increase alone wouldn't be sufficiant, id need to add miles?

As you see, everyone is different. I think that's about where i'll peak but it can be done on less. I'd agree, intensity increase alone wouldn't bring about a 10min increase in your case i'd reckon. It's all about balance really - mileage vs. intensity.

Have you started a plan yet or are you just ticking along? The Belfast Marathon, like the Rotterdam Marthon, isn't too far away :eek:

ThePiedPiper

I plateaued at 2:58 - 3:00 for 5 years, then by simply having the confidence and speed and mileage base committed completely to sub 2:50 running 2:50:50 in the end. You'll have to take a long term approach to it, 6 months minimum, and be at 1:20 half shape to have a shot.. Go for it

sub3wannabe

RunForestRun wrote: »

I plateaued at 2:58 - 3:00 for 5 years, then by simply having the confidence and speed and mileage base committed completely to sub 2:50 running 2:50:50 in the end. You'll have to take a long term approach to it, 6 months minimum, and be at 1:20 half shape to have a shot.. Go for it

Great running! What was your weekly milige in the successful 2:50 campaign mate?

sub3wannabe

Anyone familiar with the book Advanced Marathoning? 18 week programs in this book, would this rough ratio between weekly millage and target time be accurate?

Chapter:8 88km peak - 3:30 -4:00
Chapter:9 113km peak -3:30 - 3:00
Chapter:10 137km peak - 3:00 - 2:30
Chapter:11 137km plus 2:30 -2:XX


Would that be the rough ball park?

Followed C9 for my 2:59 in DCM in October, want to attempt sub 2:50 in Belfast in May. Should I repeat C9 with just higher intensity or would I need to step up to C10?

Thanks in advance!

ThePiedPiper

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Great running! What was your weekly milige in the successful 2:50 campaign mate?

I peaked 4 months out with a couple of 80ish mile weeks, but generally 60 or so after that, never under 50.. I took a heavily based marathon paced approach from a long way out.. My base level was a 1:22 half seven months out..

sub3wannabe

RunForestRun wrote: »

I peaked 4 months out with a couple of 80ish mile weeks, but generally 60 or so after that, never under 50.. I took a heavily based marathon paced approach from a long way out.. My base level was a 1:22 half seven months out..

So you'd advise C10 of the book I have? I feel like a bit of a mug running an extra 15 miles a week if as some posters claim sub2:50 can be done at 70mpw!

Krusty_Clown

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Do you mind me asking you what your peak weekly milage was when you ran 2:48:12? Do you think id need to step up to the 85miles per week program in AM2 to have a realistic shot? iyo what target time would you advise, is the risk of injury/burnout trying to shave 10minutes off in 6 months too high?

If I remember correctly, the first time I ran 2:48, I maxed out at about 70-75 miles per week. The second time, I was actually shooting for 2:42 (very aspirational!) so upped my running to 85 miles per week. I maxed out at 100mpw for the two 2:38s, but probably averaged around 85-90mpw.

Everybody's different. You need to figure out what works for you. Your table of chapters/target times isn't meaningful. There is no specific correlation between mileage and times. There is only individual stimulus and how you react to it. Don't make the assumption that the key to running faster times is reading/following a different chapter of a book or having a coach prescribe a set of training. Find out what works for you and do it.

ThePiedPiper

I strongly believe it takes time and a bit of trial and error to find the approach that best works for you. I ran a poor 3:05 off 80-100 miles per week back in 08, but have found in past couple of years that low intensity high mileage 3-4 months out from marathon, followed by average of 65 mpw is what works for me.

rom

I ran 3:04 avg 41 miles a week in the 18 week build up. Max was 55 (most under 50 with no injury/time off). Need to get off my a$$.

jfh

drquirky wrote: »

I think it is different for everyone- I recently ran 2:50:xx in Budapest off max 65/70 mpw- hard to have a one size fits all approach

hi sub3wannabe, agree with this, prob not the answer you looking for. there's no one magic formula, sure there's some that are safer bets than other's.
maybe join a club or find runners with similiar goal.

my plan incl a lot of hill & trail running which really is not that specific to marathon training, combined with one speed session & a MP session.
both milage & MP were on the low side, avg mileage 56, longest MP 10 miles.
arrived fresh & completed target sub 2:50

i hope to knock another few minutes of it but i'll be focusing on bringing down the times in the 10k's first, perhaps take a break from the marathon's & do this?

sub3wannabe

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If I remember correctly, the first time I ran 2:48, I maxed out at about 70-75 miles per week. The second time, I was actually shooting for 2:42 (very aspirational!) so upped my running to 85 miles per week. I maxed out at 100mpw for the two 2:38s, but probably averaged around 85-90mpw.

Everybody's different. You need to figure out what works for you. Your table of chapters/target times isn't meaningful. There is no specific correlation between mileage and times. There is only individual stimulus and how you react to it. Don't make the assumption that the key to running faster times is reading/following a different chapter of a book or having a coach prescribe a set of training. Find out what works for you and do it.

Krusty knows where im at and seems to have an understanding of the book im working off. I know it seems like im just looking for the magic formula and that I should really go on feel and stuff like that, it's just that im still very much a green horn when it comes to running, never been a member of any clubs etc so I fear If I just start doing what I think feels right I may stray off in the wrong direction. The books ive read like Lore of Running and Advanced Marathoning really enlightened me and the programmes give me that craved structure!

Anyway Krusty mate, you're a great asset to the forum and as a long term lurker have gained greatly from reading your posts. If you ran 2:50 off a peak 70mpw then that's good enough for me. I'm going to repeat Chapter 9 Advanced Marathoning programme with the required upping in intensity unless you think that isn't sufficient.

Thanks for all the replies and thoughts everyone, if its proved one thing is there's defiantly more that one way to skin a cat

Krusty_Clown

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Anyway Krusty mate, you're a great asset to the forum and as a long term lurker have gained greatly from reading your posts. If you ran 2:50 off a peak 70mpw then that's good enough for me. I'm going to repeat Chapter 9 Advanced Marathoning programme with the required upping in intensity unless you think that isn't sufficient.

Hi sub-3, I had the added advantage of coming from a 2:55 marathon when I was shooting for 2:48, so didn't have quite the gap in improvement you are looking for. If you think your body (and schedule!) will take the extra punishment, I'd certainly be leaning towards adding some extra mileage, so if you're stuck on the P&D programs, why not shoot for the next more challenging schedule in the book? Then based on how you perform this time around, adjust your strategy for next time.

sub3wannabe

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi sub-3, I had the added advantage of coming from a 2:55 marathon when I was shooting for 2:48, so didn't have quite the gap in improvement you are looking for. If you think your body (and schedule!) will take the extra punishment, I'd certainly be leaning towards adding some extra mileage, so if you're stuck on the P&D programs, why not shoot for the next more challenging schedule in the book? Then based on how you perform this time around, adjust your strategy for next time.

Hey. I am fundamentally lazy though and want the best results with the minimum of effort. If I thought sub 2:50 on a P&D 70mpw could be done then why would I put myself through all the stress of doing 18 weeks of 15mpw extra! I do feel like im falling between two stools at this time bracket. I mean, I have no doubt that if and when I attempt sub 2:40 id be no doubt moving up to the next programe, 85mpw

drquirky

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Hey. I am fundamentally lazy though and want the best results with the minimum of effort. If I thought sub 2:50 on a P&D 70mpw could be done then why would I put myself through all the stress of doing 18 weeks of 15mpw extra! I do feel like im falling between two stools at this time bracket. I mean, I have no doubt that if and when I attempt sub 2:40 id be no doubt moving up to the next programe, 85mpw

You kinda picked the wrong sport.

dublin runner

Minimum of effort? Hmmm....

Instead of running 26.2 miles in sub 2.50 why not drive it or better still, just get a taxi? A goal like that takes dedication, time, maximum effort and persistence not minimal effort.

ThePiedPiper

Yeah, seriously, if you're really intent on running sub 2:50, your attitude and commitment are way more important than which chapter of a book you're reading.. Dropping from 3:00:20 took me 10 marathons, 5 years, about 8,000 miles.. I'm not saying I was always completely committed or didn't make a few mistakes along the way but you have to be prepared to put in the work and possibly months or years of positive commitment..

sub3wannabe

dublin runner wrote: »

Minimum of effort? Hmmm....

Instead of running 26.2 miles in sub 2.50 why not drive it or better still, just get a taxi? A goal like that takes dedication, time, maximum effort and persistence not minimal effort.

I was sorta being flippant. Obv having ran successfully a 2:59:26 in Dublin this year off the back of 22 weeks hard graft I am aware it takes a serious comitment but theres also a oportunity cost involved and if I could run sub 2:50 off 15 miles per week less and spend those extra hours doing other things like spending time with friends and family then why wouldn't I?

rom

sub3wannabe wrote: »

I was sorta being flippant. Obv having ran successfully a 2:59:26 in Dublin this year off the back of 22 weeks hard graft I am aware it takes a serious comitment but theres also a oportunity cost involved and if I could run sub 2:50 off 15 miles per week less and spend those extra hours doing other things like spending time with friends and family then why wouldn't I?

It simple, if you don't "like" running why do it? Life is too short. If you like what your doing you don't ever need motivation to do more of it.

sub3wannabe

rom wrote: »

It simple, if you don't "like" running why do it? Life is too short. If you like what your doing you don't ever need motivation to do more of it.

Who said I don't like it? Just want to achieve the goal as efficiently as possible!

dublin runner

If you want to train with maxium efficency then I fully agree but saying something like 'minimum effort' doesn't really sound too great!

Getting back to your question, using a generic plan is well and good but you must find what works for you rather than following it blindly. Personally, I doubt running the same mileage will bring about such an desired improvement but that is just my take, especially with the marathon not too far away.

RayCun

sub3wannabe wrote: »

I was sorta being flippant. Obv having ran successfully a 2:59:26 in Dublin this year off the back of 22 weeks hard graft I am aware it takes a serious comitment but theres also a oportunity cost involved and if I could run sub 2:50 off 15 miles per week less and spend those extra hours doing other things like spending time with friends and family then why wouldn't I?

I see from your other posts you want to go on to run 2.40 and faster? Then any 'extra' running you do when training for 2.50 is in the bank for when you try to run 2.40.

sub3wannabe

RayCun wrote: »

I see from your other posts you want to go on to run 2.40 and faster? Then any 'extra' running you do when training for 2.50 is in the bank for when you try to run 2.40.

That's a very good point to be fair.

I also forgot to mention that I have started a new job on a building site so im going to be on my feet all day doing some resistance cross training, compared to my sedentary daily routine in between training for Dublin this year. I really am concerned of serious fatigue/burnout if I do step up the extra 15 miles. If that was what I thought was required though I would try and do it.

ThePiedPiper

The sheer volume of miles doesn't always make a big difference in terms of fatigue, its the intensity you're doing them at that does.. Last year, I did 320 miles training in 19 days without any fatigue issues, but I had time in my hands and pace was mostly easy.. A 65 mile week with 25-30 of them at 6:25 pace is far tougher than 115 miles miles easy running.. Each have their place and each bring huge benefit.. How you structure your plan depends as much on your life schedule as your running philosophy..