Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

nerraw1111

jfh wrote: »

there's the odd race entry number popping up..

Yeah seems to be a fair few going up. Check their fb page.

jfh

Peterx wrote: »

difficult for camels in the bible but the oul octopus manages the needle trick on youtube

and lo it would appear that this year there are plenty of late spaces opening up for the Warriors with their highly efficient transfers messageboard on their website.

I'm hoping to get a late Warriors entry myself as we'll be in the area that Friday for a wedding. I am doing my one indulgence race this Saturday (a multisport 4 hour race) followed by the Dublin series 10 miler and 1/2 marathon with two 10k races in the plan for weeks 3 and 2 out from raceday.

not something i expected to find in here, but that was something else, far play to the octupus. i'll be thinking of him at mile 22, when the odds are stacked against me. .

jfh

i'm thinking of doing a half marathon as a MP training run as i train on my own & would find it difficult to knock out MP miles alone, so how would one go about this.
13 miles @ 6:30
or 2 miles WU - 10 miles @ 6:30 - 1 mile WD

suppose it depends on what i've built up to?

DogSlySmile

Suppose it depends on how you are planning to run the marathon. Are you going to do a couple of warmup miles below marathon pace and then ease into race pace? Or are you gonna try and hit 6:30m/m straight out of the box? Whichever you are planning to do you should probably do this during the HM.

If it was me, I'd go for 13m @ 6:30m/m to best simulate what I would hope to happen on the big day.

jfh

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Suppose it depends on how you are planning to run the marathon. Are you going to do a couple of warmup miles below marathon pace and then ease into race pace? Or are you gonna try and hit 6:30m/m straight out of the box? Whichever you are planning to do you should probably do this during the HM.

If it was me, I'd go for 13m @ 6:30m/m to best simulate what I would hope to happen on the big day.

yes that's what i was thinking too, you don't get a warm up in the marathon.

Peckham

I did a 10 mile race recently as a replacement for my PMP session. Like you, I find it very hard to stick with these sessions when running alone. Huge advantage of pacing off other runners and water stations. Planning on doing my final PMP session at the Moone Kilomarathon.

The advantage of doing these sessions outside of a race setting is that you can do your warm-up miles and then kick into the PMP segment whenever you want. Naturally in a race setting you need to start with everyone else, and if you want to run the full race distance at PMP you need to go from a standing start, with any warmup miles having been done before getting to the startline.

However, this is no bad thing as that replicates exactly how most of us run a marathon (straight from standing start to marathon pace, or faster as is often the case!).

TFBubendorfer

jfh wrote: »

i'm thinking of doing a half marathon as a MP training run as i train on my own & would find it difficult to knock out MP miles alone,

While I have seen this recommended quite a few times, it does not work for me. There is no way I can pin a number onto my chest and then deliberately run slower (I tried )

TBH running 10-13 miles at MP pace should not be difficult even on your own.

jfh

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

While I have seen this recommended quite a few times, it does not work for me. There is no way I can pin a number onto my chest and then deliberately run slower (I tried )

TBH running 10-13 miles at MP pace should not be difficult even on your own.

well i have never tried it so your possibly right but i'm hesistent to go out and try and fail, know it would be easier in a race environment. i'm very uncompetitive so will have no problem getting passed by people i'm usually ahead off.

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

While I have seen this recommended quite a few times, it does not work for me. There is no way I can pin a number onto my chest and then deliberately run slower (I tried )

TBH running 10-13 miles at MP pace should not be difficult even on your own.

My own experience is that 12+ miles at pmp is always tough. If you're not finding it difficult, you may not be doing it fast enough (or are someone who fades in marathons).

jfh

would i be wrong in saying that the slower your predicted marathon time, the easier it is to do a PMP session.

menoscemo

jfh wrote: »

would i be wrong in saying that the slower your predicted marathon time, the easier it is to do a PMP session.

Depends; for someone who is looking for a 3:30 marathon off a 1:40 half it is going to be equally as difficult for say someone looking for sub 3 off a 1:26 half.

For someone looking for sub 3 off a 1:20 half or someone looking for 3:30 off a 1:33 half it should be relatively easy.

TFBubendorfer

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

My own experience is that 12+ miles at pmp is always tough. If you're not finding it difficult, you may not be doing it fast enough (or are someone who fades in marathons).

Me and fade? The second half of the course was way tougher, that's all :rolleyes:
Actually I do have quite a few marathons with very even splits to my name.

I generally find that 13 miles at MP sounds very daunting and I'm not exactly looking forward to it, but once I get going I'm able to get the session done.

jfh

hi TFB, don't think krusty was directing that at you.

right when i did a 4 hr marathon, PMP would be 9:09
i think it would have been easier to trot out 12+ of those then, than 12+ @6:29 now.

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Me and fade? The second half of the course was way tougher, that's all :rolleyes:
Actually I do have quite a few marathons with very even splits to my name.

I generally find that 13 miles at MP sounds very daunting and I'm not exactly looking forward to it, but once I get going I'm able to get the session done.

My response was a little tongue in cheek. I reckon if one trains for a marathon that is within one's grasp (which is a good thing) then 13 miles at marathon pace should be pretty achievable. It is after all, a sub-optimal pace half marathon. When you get closer to the limit of your potential though, the gap between your half marathon pace and marathon pace is much narrower, so it should in theory, be tougher. In other words, you have years of improvements to make, and I am at the end of my running curve. I've run a number of marathons where I was probably quite over-optimistic about my targets though, and so probably found long pmp runs harder than they should have been.

The difference in pace between a marathon and half marathon based on some round number targets (according to McMillan):
5 hours: 34 seconds/mile
4 hours: 28 seconds/mile
3 hours: 20 seconds/mile
2 hours 30: 18 seconds/mile
2 hours 04: 14 seconds/mile

Perhaps the above is meaningless as it's all relative, but I ran a half marathon recently at marathon pace, and was just 40 seconds off of my half marathon PB, which certainly had a psychological impact.

ThePiedPiper

By the way, something in one of the posts above struck me, the idea that you should throw yourself straight into MP in a race.. Personally, I don't actually agree with that. I've found in the last couple of marathons I've done that its worked out much better when I take it out at MP + 30-60 seconds for the first mile or so, then increase the pace gradually. In my most recent half marathon, first few miles were 6:20ish pace, before averaging under 6:00 for the last 10, so in my opinion, you actually should go easy in the first mile or two.

Peterx

RunForestRun wrote: »

By the way, something in one of the posts above struck me, the idea that you should throw yourself straight into MP in a race.. Personally, I don't actually agree with that. I've found in the last couple of marathons I've done that its worked out much better when I take it out at MP + 30-60 seconds for the first mile or so, then increase the pace gradually. In my most recent half marathon, first few miles were 6:20ish pace, before averaging under 6:00 for the last 10, so in my opinion, you actually should go easy in the first mile or two.

I think it might be down to personal preference. I generally start slowly and try to either ramp it up or at the very least not get slower!

Passing lads for the last third of an event is mentally very positive (although there can be false complacency as you yourself might not be moving quick enough for target time despite passing all these lads)

I expect to find 13 miles at marathon pace hard enough in training, if it's easy you are possibly being too soft with your marathon target?

happygoose

Why is it so, i.e. hard to run 13/15 PMP in training when you can end up running 26 of them in the race. Is it fatigue/taper?

RayCun

happygoose wrote: »

Why is it so, i.e. hard to run 13/15 PMP in training when you can end up running 26 of them in the race. Is it fatigue/taper?

Partly, but it's always easier to run hard in a race compared to training.

pointer28

I think it's the mental effort of sticking to a pace for that length of time just as much as the physical effort. If it's a normal LSR you can allow your mind to wander and admire the scenery without losing much speed but you really have to concentrate for the longer PMP sessions.

I entered a HM last weekend and just trotted around and I swear it was the easiest run I ever did even if I was a little bold and went a few minutes quicker than planned. The company and chat just makes it so much easier.

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

Partly, but it's always easier to run hard in a race compared to training.

Exactly. The race environment helps hugely. But there are many other factors:
1) You do pmp runs in your training build-up. i.e. you are not yet race-ready. A 12 mile pmp run might take place when you are only half way through your training/development.
2) pmp runs tend to happen at or close to peak mileage weeks. A 12 mile pmp run at the end of a hundred mile week (which includes other tough sessions) is always going to be far tougher than the first 12 miles of your marathon.
3) Taper is designed to bring you to the start line with no niggles, muscle pain or tightness.
4) Gels and drinks that you normally forgo during training.
5) Carb-loading (or whatever your dietary preference may be)
6) Motivation: One is a training run; one is a goal race.
7) Adrenaline.
8) Competition.

RayCun

A lot of people do half marathons as PMP runs (or 10k races as tempo runs for that matter) and I wonder if its a good idea. I suppose the physical effects of running at that pace will stand to you, but maybe you don't get the mental benefits of toughing the run out on your own?

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

A lot of people do half marathons as PMP runs (or 10k races as tempo runs for that matter) and I wonder if its a good idea. I suppose the physical effects of running at that pace will stand to you, but maybe you don't get the mental benefits of toughing the run out on your own?

I'd agree. It's hard to beat the mental and physical hardship you go through when heading out for a pmp run on your own, however, pmp runs are also a form of simulation where you might want to reproduce the variables of a race environment. Still I suppose you could use tune-up races rather than pmp runs to better hone your race 'practise'. Probably a mixture of both worlds.

opus

RayCun wrote: »

A lot of people do half marathons as PMP runs (or 10k races as tempo runs for that matter) and I wonder if its a good idea. I suppose the physical effects of running at that pace will stand to you, but maybe you don't get the mental benefits of toughing the run out on your own?

I'm planning to try and do exactly that at the Charleville half later on in the month.

Coincidently did my least favourite P&D session 18m w 12m @ MP last night, found I didn't have to play near as many mind games with myself to keep going as I did when I did the similar run with 10m at MP a few weeks back. Hopefully a sign of progress.

cianc

opus wrote: »

I'm planning to try and do exactly that at the Charleville half later on in the month.

Coincidently did my least favourite P&D session 18m w 12m @ MP last night, found I didn't have to play near as many mind games with myself to keep going as I did when I did the similar run with 10m at MP a few weeks back. Hopefully a sign of progress.

This. PMP sessions are still hard work, but no longer the scary prospect they were a few weeks ago. Nice to see hard work paying off.

ThePiedPiper

With 6-8 weeks before goal marathons, how are we all feeling at the moment? Are you feeling like you're on target, behind target, struggling with niggles, or is everything going 100% according to plan?

After a couple of excellent weeks in August, a couple of good races and nailing a lot of the sessions, I'm starting to feel like I'm falling off a little bit in the past week or so. The runmute is going reasonably well, but with the elevation profile of the run home, its pretty much impossible to do comfortable MP. And, I stupidly hurt my quad a couple of days back in the most ridiculous of circumstances, a bloody family relay race sprinting around the house!

Maybe this is just pre-taper uncertainty, or the inevitable doubts that were bound to creep in when I started dropping the mileage back a bit, but starting to feel like I may have peaked in August. I suppose the good news is that I've about three weeks to get things sorted with good training, before starting the taper in October. The half in Athlone will tell me a lot next weekend. If I can go under 1:20 again, then I'll not have lost much since the start of August, and will get a bit of confidence back.

cianc

Going well, getting faster, but the idea of running sub 6:29 for 26.2 miles still feels like a tall order. If I can nail an upcoming 14M pmp, and the DCM half, I'll start believing sub 2:50 is achievable.

That's some bad luck with the quad RFR. If there's one thing worse than a running injury, it's a non-running (family races don't count ) injury that messes up your running. Hopefully you'll get sorted quick like.

drquirky

I'm pretty much with ya RFR. Have a small niggle in the calf that always seems to pop up when I'm running well. Have three days off due to it which is frustrating but to hones it may actually do me some good! Lots of weeks of training under the belt now and definitely starting to feel it physically and mentally! Looking forward to the Athlone HM as a good barometer.

Peckham

Can't say I'm exactly brimming with confidence at the moment, but I suppose that's usual for this stage in proceedings.

Of the three key elements, I'm ticking the boxes for two of them - overall mileage and long runs. Unfortunately the PMP/faster pace box remains unticked. Have a total of 22 miles PMP in the legs (over two runs - 10 miles & 12 miles), and whilst the tempo stuff was good in June/July, August wasn't amazing and abandoned a session today.

Still 34 days to go, two of which are really important - Athlone Half next weekend (sub-80 would really push up the confidence) and a 15 mile PMP the following weekend (completing that would leave me feeling a lot more comfortable).

thewolf_ie

I booked loads of races before I started or even seen the P&D 18 week plan and all bar one of the PMP runs landed on races very suitable. What a coincidence hay. It really helps.

blockic

thewolf_ie wrote: »

I booked loads of races before I started or even seen the P&D 18 week plan and all bar one of the PMP runs landed on races very suitable. What a coincidence hay. It really helps.

It is good alright, but on the flipside it can be benefitial to run some PMP Long runs outside of races too.

As if they are all within a race environment when you get to your actual goal race you don't really get the same "race adrenaline" in terms of your pace as all the MP training has been done in races up to that point.

If that makes sense.