Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

EauRouge79 wrote: »

If I want to run between 2:52 - 2:53 i.e 6:35 p/mile avg. What kind of pace would it be advisable to set off at and for how long should I stay at that pace before picking it up?

It's an interesting question and one that I was discussing with a club-mate the other day. For last year's Dublin marathon, I went out and hit my target pace from the start (aiming for a 2:41). My club-mate (who I didn't know at the time), started out conservatively, below his target pace. I struggled to run at the pace I had trained for, ran a positive split, finishing slower than my target time, in 2:43. He by contrast, with his conservative approach, passed me at about half way, and went on to finish with a negative split, faster than his target time in 2:39.

As you might remember, myself and KU positioned ourselves pretty badly in the starting corral in London, and within a couple of miles we were a minute down on where we would have expected to be. But mile by mile, the pace picked up, and by half way, we were bang on target (1:19:49), without actually killing ourselves to get there and finished with a 48 second negative-split, with the second half taking 1:19:01. The first 5k was the slowest of the day, by a good 40 seconds (because of people congestion). I'm not sure about KU, but that first 5k is what made my race.

It's hard to plan to run your first 5k very conservatively (as you get caught up in the adrenaline and rush of the race), but that's what I'll be hoping to do in Dublin this year. Run a slow first 5k, hit the half-way point slightly slower than target, and hope that the conservative strategy will allow me to finish strong. Rather than focussing specifically on numbers, I'll be hoping to run very comfortably for the first 10 miles, pick it up slightly for the next 10, and unleash hell over the final 10k.

Peckham wrote: »

Some great points there KC, and it’s a strategy I’ll probably be adopting for Chicago. However, it leaves the question of how to run the first 5k at a slower than target pace without watching the numbers on the Garmin. As you say, it’s all too easy to get caught up in the moment and what feels “very easy” is actually 10+ seconds per mile faster than target pace, and then you end up stressing during miles 2 and 3 trying to put the brakes on.

Trying to avoid overtaking people for the first mile is one possible strategy (assuming everyone is positioned correctly at the start).

I guess I should say that I will be watching the splits every mile. What I won't be doing is establishing that for a target pace of 6 min/mile, I'll run the first 5k miles at 6:10/mile. It just feels too contrived; too forced. The first few miles at PMP should normally feel pretty comfortable, so running slightly slower than that should feel really easy.

I think it was TRR who posted a race report at one point (Berlin or London?), where he divided the whole race into 10k blocks and essentially increased the effort/pace for each of the 10k blocks and basically picked up the pace for the entire race, to finish with a flourish and a windmill. Sounded like the perfect race strategy.

I agree with my London buddy of course. I applied a similar strategy for Dublin last year and it worked out really well. Basically aimed to run the first five miles at MP+10, up to halfway at MP and then make a decision at half way. I felt very good on the day so I picked it up and picked it up again at 20 miles. Next time I race a marathon, I will definitely go for something similar. There's sometimes a perception that you can't have time to make up in the second half of a marathon but if you've done the training then it's the best way to go. You'll be passing people right, left and centre and this momentum will allow you to go even quicker.
It's probably a good idea to train this way too if you are going to race this way.

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I agree with my London buddy of course. I applied a similar strategy for Dublin last year and it worked out really well. Basically aimed to run the first five miles at MP+10, up to halfway at MP and then make a decision at half way. I felt very good on the day so I picked it up and picked it up again at 20 miles. Next time I race a marathon, I will definitely go for something similar. There's sometimes a perception that you can't have time to make up in the second half of a marathon but if you've done the training then it's the best way to go. You'll be passing people right, left and centre and this momentum will allow you to go even quicker.
It's probably a good idea to train this way too if you are going to race this way.

Hi KU,
Thanks for that. Very sound advice also. Will get 2 20+mile runs in over the next 2 weeks and hopefully run it as I hope to race.

EauRouge79 wrote: »

"Unleash Hell" - brilliant, I can see myself using that as my mantra at 20 miles come 28th October!

Thanks KC, great advice. Yes, I remember sitting awe struck in the boozer in London when listening to you and KU's recollection of the race. Certainly a race that ye both nailed.

I had a seriously encouraging half marathon 2 weeks ago where I ran 5 mile warm up followed by the race itself which was a progressive run in terms of the pace. 1st six @6:38 , next 5 @6:12 & last 2@ 5:50.
Yesterdays Charleville half has me 2nd guessing myself now

I think based on what you and Peckham have said, i will aim to be about 1 minute down on target at 5 miles i.e just ahead of the 3hr pace group At least your in the park at stage and should be getting into a rhythm. Push it on from there.
Thanks

don't read too much into one bad time in charleville, as everyone's times were down. but i think the race strategy advised is sound & one i'll be employing myself

Gavlor wrote: »

Great discussion guys, definitely has me rethinking my strategy.

Whats the target V?

I don't think staying with a slower pace for 6 miles will work out too well unless you really are capable of upping the pace after 2 hours. *

Sticking with the 3 hour pacers for the first 5 or 6 minutes maybe, after 6 miles you would have lost 2 minutes 42 seconds on your virtual even paced 2.50 runner.
So then for the remaining 20 miles you have to run 8 seconds per mile quicker than the even paced guy or 6.17 per mile.

* my opinion only!

In the same boat and some good advice (KC/KU) about starting slow and picking up the pace gradually. I'm running Berlin on Sunday but at the moment sub 2:50 seems hard to get. In the last month have big PBs in 10mile (59:05) and half (1:19:01) and have 6 20 milers done but very little PMP work done due to racing... Any I have done I found hard although all indicators suggest sub 2:50..

Going to go for it on Sunday but like the idea of starting slower and picking it up provided I'm going good. In the past, I've gone for even splits but with the ambitious target might favour some initial caution...

been quiet over here..how's training going for ye?
wideball you did well. any tips?!

Peterx wrote: »

Lads falling by the wayside left right and centre tends to make for low post counts.
My excellent start (if I say so myself) foundered on the rocks in September. 7 very good weeks led to the last 4 weeks being a disaster for training. I had a reality check in the Adidas half (struggled to hold a pace for 10 miles and then fell apart for 3.1) and have now readjusted my goal time to sub 2.52.56, not quite as catchy as sub 2.50 and to be honest possibly not realistic but that my pb so that's the target.
I'm off to the sub 3 thread now:P

maybe you had one bad race in the half?
i'm going into the unknown, i had a good half, bad 10k, okish half in charleville, athlone was my longest run, hope to get 21 done this weekend.
then taper for 2 weeks

wideball wrote: »

Meant to post here after Berlin. Not sure if it helps but here's briefly my experience.

I was unsure like a lots of folks here about whether sub 2:50 was on but indicators said it was. Weather was perfect (sunny, cool 8c-12c with a slight breeze). It took me almost a min to cross the start line and for the first 5km I was behind the 3 hr pacers (they seemed to be going quicker than planned), after that I got in a rhythm of 4min kms (6:26 in old money..) and more often was a sec or 2 below this. Felt comfortable and crossed half way in 1:25:05. I had 2 gels at 7 & 12 miles. Only took mouthfuls of water.

Picked up the pace slightly but steady till 30km and was still comfortable. Gels at 16 and 20 miles. From 30km in I ran to empty the tank. Was passing lots of runners which was a great feeling. Ran a few kms in low 3:50s and even one at 3:46... but might have over cooked it as last 2 kms I was back to 4min kms but finish line came soon. The faster pace in the last 12 km meant the kms passed by quicker which was great from psychological perspective, than the usual death march to the line. I covered the 2nd half in 1:23:57 and I reckon a high 38min last 10km for 2:49:02.

First time to ever negative split a marathon and will do this again as a strategy. For what it's worth, I'd go for an even pace first half so if you are feeling good, the goal is on. If not you should back off after the 1st half. But if on, I'd delay upping the pace till late on (20 miles) if you feel you can go faster. Try to be patient till that point.

Best of luck to all in Dublin. I'm doing it as well.

you reckon that was a better strategy than running even splits?
not sure if id be comfortable to trust that i'd give it my best shot if i stuck behind the sub 3 pacers.
worked out well for you & come to think of it, i did athlone 3/4 in a similiar fashion, passed a lot as i started way back but i didn't treat it as a race so was happy to . decisions decisions..

Peterx wrote: »

Lads falling by the wayside left right and centre tends to make for low post counts.
My excellent start (if I say so myself) foundered on the rocks in September. 7 very good weeks led to the last 4 weeks being a disaster for training. I had a reality check in the Adidas half (struggled to hold a pace for 10 miles and then fell apart for 3.1) and have now readjusted my goal time to sub 2.52.56, not quite as catchy as sub 2.50 and to be honest possibly not realistic but that my pb so that's the target.
I'm off to the sub 3 thread now:P

I wouldn't count yourself out just yet. I think a good strategy on the day would be to run a big negative. I mean if you sandbag the first half but leave the door open you have a good chance of going sub 2:50. That course in particular lends itself very favorably to a negative split. Something like 86 first half then an 83 second half is very doable for you. Its always better to be chasing after it than trying desperately to hold on. Plus never underestimate the power of overtaking people in a race, it just drives you on, whereas that feeling of losing pace and being passed is death.

wideball wrote: »

I was behind the sub 3 for a few early kms but it was largely to due to them going quicker than they should plus they got ahead of me when crossing the initial start line.

I ran the goal race pace splits (4min km / 6:26 mile) till half way, marginally quicker till 19miles before going quicker. My base pace was the goal pace. I wasn't slower than the goal pace in the early stages.

Even splits is probably best for as long as you can depending on how you are feeling. I guess committing yourself to a strategy, running relaxed during the race before the inevitable hard work later in the race. I took confidence in the end from the training and trusted the plan to work.

think that's the key alright, sounds like you ran the ideal race strategy, much preferable to the usual death march. slim margin between giving it your all & doing too much.
you say you're doing dublin, easy right?

Was just wondering if anyone could help me with a couple of questions. I have been running for just over 3 years. Have ran 4 marathons in that time. Times were as follows. DCM2011 h3:41:51 DCM2012 h3:13:27 Paris2013 h3:08:31 DCM2013 2:59:26

Am now looking at the Belfast marathon in May for my next race. Question is, is it realistic to aim to cut 10 minutes off my PB set in Dublin this year or is it a bit ambitious? I suppose im looking to know what realistic time gains from 1 marathon to another should be once you get to this level.

Also I followed the 113km peak program from Advanced Marathoning 2 for my my last race in Dublin. Should I be stepping up to the next level with the increased milage or just do the same amount of milage but at a higher intensity?

Thanks in advance!