Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

--amadeus--

All hail our hero Buzz

Looking at the 2011 targets thread there are a fair number of runners who have cracked 3 and are looking to move onto the next level - or are already performing in the 2:30 - 2:45 bracket. I'm not sure that the training is *that* different for a 2:45 / 2:50 than it is for a 2:59 but there is only one way to find out...

Speaking personally I ran 2:58:02 in Oct, was running at sub 2:55 pace up to half way but was feeling it so eased off and ran "easy" in the second half to bag a pretty comfortable sub 3 with a big cheesy grin. Things that went wrong were the now traditional fade in the latter stages of the race and my nutrition (idiotic mistake of using non-isotonic gels and not matching gels to water stations).

So how am I going to move from 2:58 now to sub 2:50 by this time next year?

- More commitment. I was inconsistent in my training last year, no Spring race and entire missed weeks in preping for autumn. At least 5 days running every week, no matter what gets in the way this time round with a target of 7 days per week is the plan this time

- More mileage. And more commitment will = more mileage. And that has to help

- Tougher long runs. I get where Tungska comes from with his long, long PMP runs but I couldn't do 18 @ PMP. I will do more PMP runs this year but I will also mix in PMP and LT miles into the weekly LSR (working to a Daniels plan) and I hope that will benefit both my overall endurance and my ability to maintain speed when fatigued. It should also help sort out my chronic HTFU problem...

So that's how I'm planning on bridging the gap. Personally I'm pretty confident I can get to 2:55; I ran pretty easy in the latter stages of Amsterdam. Much beyond that I'm not so sure about but I'd be interested in hearing how others plan on moving from sub 3 to faster times (or what the really quick guys do that sub 3 aspirants might not). In particular things like cross training, weight training, diet & nutrition and massage, none of which I do or pay much attention to.

misty floyd

Hey Amadeus,
I'm in a similar situation. I like to keep things simple so here is my rough plan for the year:

*From now to the middle of Feb (if I'm good) each week like this:
1 x Shorter speed session like 400's and 800's. I want to improve leg speed and all that LT level business
1 x longish run ~12/13m easy
1 x 6-8m tempo maybe.
The rest easy (add in some strides along the way).

Then getting hitched in March :rolleyes::D, 3 week holiday work on the belly.

Early March - July same as above but increase the LSR slowly but surely.

July - Oct back to the usual:
1 x big session with long intervals (4x2m @ HMP)
1 x medium effort
1 x Long run (gonna get loads of 20's and lots with PMP.)
The rest easy. I would like to get up to the 70m pw range.

My efforts (tempo/HMP interval etc) will be determined by the time I get in a shorter race around June/July (macmillan) plus a bit faster to allow for an improvement in fitness over the 18 weeks of marathon training.

Something like that anyway. Works for me. Best of luck with it all....I'll race ya.

*subject to change.

ecoli

Great idea for a thread

Wont be stepping up the marathon just yet but i think when you get to this level its the right training principles that need to be applied across the board regardless of the 5k - marathon training

4 Aspects to a successful training plan i believe which will bring a runner on are as follows.

Consistency, Capacity, Frequency, Mixture

In order to make the most gains and realize your full potential as a runner you have to maximize each area in unison with the others.

That means get in the right mixture of work: speed work, threshold work, long runs, races, and don't let any area fall behind. You have to work on all aspects year round.

Do this consistently, week after week, month after month and year after year. There is no short cuts in running, it takes time to realize your full potential.

You need to improve your frequency, slowly over time until you are running anything between 6-13 times a week (or cross train depending on injury history again this is ability to listen to ones body)

You need to slowly build your capacity/mileage over time, but only in conjuction with the proper mixture. This means that the usual 18 week plan coming up to a marathon should only tell 1/2 the story of the work put in through cumulative miles throughout the last three to four years

Big jumps in either mileage or quality don't work 9 out of 10 times because they aren't sustainable be it injury risk or sickness.

No short-cuts, just look at these 4 tenets and slowly and methodically over time improve on them. Maintain good mixture while increasing your capacity and frequency.

Too many people just pick out 1 of the 4 areas and then go overboard on it and that just doesn't work in the end.

Runners are like chains, we are only as good as our leakest links.

Improve your consistency until you are training solidly year round except for occassional planned short regeneration breaks.

Improve your capacity until you have reached your own personal maximum amount that you can do while keeping up the other areas.

Keep you mixture in balance with regular work on all areas.

You won't be able to make big changes to any area very quickly but will have to work on all areas (starting with whatever your weakest is) slowly over time

There are no magic formulas or sessions just keep it Simple and constant and you will see the results

T runner

--amadeus-- wrote: »

All hail our hero Buzz

Looking at the 2011 targets thread there are a fair number of runners who have cracked 3 and are looking to move onto the next level - or are already performing in the 2:30 - 2:45 bracket. I'm not sure that the training is *that* different for a 2:45 / 2:50 than it is for a 2:59 but there is only one way to find out...

Speaking personally I ran 2:58:02 in Oct, was running at sub 2:55 pace up to half way but was feeling it so eased off and ran "easy" in the second half to bag a pretty comfortable sub 3 with a big cheesy grin. Things that went wrong were the now traditional fade in the latter stages of the race and my nutrition (idiotic mistake of using non-isotonic gels and not matching gels to water stations).

So how am I going to move from 2:58 now to sub 2:50 by this time next year?

- More commitment. I was inconsistent in my training last year, no Spring race and entire missed weeks in preping for autumn. At least 5 days running every week, no matter what gets in the way this time round with a target of 7 days per week is the plan this time

- More mileage. And more commitment will = more mileage. And that has to help

- Tougher long runs. I get where Tungska comes from with his long, long PMP runs but I couldn't do 18 @ PMP. I will do more PMP runs this year but I will also mix in PMP and LT miles into the weekly LSR (working to a Daniels plan) and I hope that will benefit both my overall endurance and my ability to maintain speed when fatigued. It should also help sort out my chronic HTFU problem...

So that's how I'm planning on bridging the gap. Personally I'm pretty confident I can get to 2:55; I ran pretty easy in the latter stages of Amsterdam. Much beyond that I'm not so sure about but I'd be interested in hearing how others plan on moving from sub 3 to faster times (or what the really quick guys do that sub 3 aspirants might not). In particular things like cross training, weight training, diet & nutrition and massage, none of which I do or pay much attention to.

Hi Amadeus,

I was averaging 70-80 miles a week for the 1000 mile challenge last year and that got me just under 2.45. I did some longer fast runs and some cross country races for strenght. The high mileage was key.

I failed in my training pre-Berlin becuase my body wasnt ready for the workload i was asking it for. Mileage wasnt as high.

Foe myself I am going to get up to teh high mileage (easy runs), do a few shoerter faster races and cross country and then transfer to marathon type training.

tunguska

--amadeus-- wrote: »

- Tougher long runs. I get where Tungska comes from with his long, long PMP runs but I couldn't do 18 @ PMP. I will do more PMP runs this year but I will also mix in PMP and LT miles into the weekly LSR (working to a Daniels plan) and I hope that will benefit both my overall endurance and my ability to maintain speed when fatigued. It should also help sort out my chronic HTFU problem...

So that's how I'm planning on bridging the gap. Personally I'm pretty confident I can get to 2:55; I ran pretty easy in the latter stages of Amsterdam. Much beyond that I'm not so sure about but I'd be interested in hearing how others plan on moving from sub 3 to faster times (or what the really quick guys do that sub 3 aspirants might not). In particular things like cross training, weight training, diet & nutrition and massage, none of which I do or pay much attention to.

The Long marathon paced runs have been traded in for Daniels' sessions whereby I'll do 2 x 22mile runs per week, which each one of these been broken down into Threshold and marathon pace intervals. I mean once you get to Phase IV you'll be doing purely marathon paced runs aswell but the most you'll cover will be 15miles at Marathon pace. All other runs are done at easy pace. So you're basically just talking about 2 hard sessons/week. But at 22 miles, theyre monster sessions.
If I were you Amadeus I'd follow Daniels's elite plan. Its a very straight forward, no nonsense schedule. Although with the 2 x 22miler T-pace and M-pace sessions, plus the 22 mile long run, you'd be looking at 100miles/week all in all with the easy runs added in aswell.

Although having said that, I think 2:55 is a soft target for you. You should be looking at having a good crack at sub 2:50, to make it really worth your while. I think 70miles a week is the minmum requirement if you wanna go 2:45 and beyond.

heffsarmy

For me personally, I have noticed with increase in mileage and marathon specific training my times have come down. The mileage increase was'nt huge about 15 - 20%, but the more I trained the more my body was about to cope with the increase. The Dublin marathon 2010, I averaged around 60miles approx a week (not alot by some standards), but some weeks peaked just under 90miles. I used a simple plan by Brendan O'Shea, which was 1 1/2 fartlek tuesday, 2 hour fartlek thurs and a long run 2 1/2 sunday, the rest of the week was easy running with fri as a rest day. I like to keep things simple, so I will be using this plan for the next marathon, but will increase the avergae mileage to mid 70s and hopefully will bring me home in under 2.30 Dublin 2011 . My advice would be increase your mileage with marathon specific runs and you will improve.

Gringo78

--amadeus-- wrote: »

So how am I going to move from 2:58 now to sub 2:50 by this time next year?

For you Amadeus, a few more races are required over 5k to 10m before heading into another marathon program. Start hitting McMillan equivalent times for 2:45 and then pick a marathon to train for.

One reason I believe a lot of people don't progress on from sub 3 to sub 2:45 is the 6min/ml barrier. When you're aiming for sub 3 marathon, PMP is 6:50. Lots of people aiming for 6:50 PMP will have race experience of a couple of miles at <6:00 pace i.e 30min 5 mile, 18min 5k, maybe sub 38 10km. So they can and have run 3-6 miles at a pace 50sec/ml faster than PMP.

Now take 2:45 - PMP is 6:15. So you need to get experience running at 5:25/5:30 pace - 17min 5k, 28min 5mile, maybe 36min 10k. So when you can string a few miles together at 5:30, then, 6:15 will start to feel like PMP, then you can build up the endurance and go for it in a marathon.

Kilnaboy 10 miler on 10th April is not too far from you and you could start a nice 12 week program after new year to build into that and hit a nice 2:50 McMillan equivalent Sub 60 there.

BeepBeep67

I'm not a marathon runner but that sounds like solid advice Gringo.
I know when I'm targetting a 5k race you can beat a couple of mile and 3k races in advance and I'm sure that translates for the longer distances also.

--amadeus--

Whoa, whoa, hold on! This is a generic thread on 2:45 not on me getting to 2:45! I'm a long, long way short of that kind of form or fitness - sub 2:54 is the immediate goal and maybe sub 2:50 in the autumn is as far as I'll stretch for now, thank you very much...

Bundles of really, really good advice above. T. I am using a hybrid P&D and Daniels elite plan for this race actually, possibly as a way of bridging to a full Daniels elite next year maybe. I just don't know if I can commit the time though.

Interesting idea on targeting faster times on shorter races first, that's the KC approach I think, makes a lot of sense.

Sosa

Like yourself Amadeus and Gringo....i eased to a sub 3 in Cork last year and on the day if i didnt have the 2 toilet breaks i could have gone sub 2:55...if i had went for it.
I will not be doing another Marathon until i have the time...if i was to do Cork or Dublin next year,i would be looking at sub 2:50...if i have to wait until next year...i may go for sub 2:45.
At the minute i am getting around 25/30m a week in,but its all fast tempos and intervals,so as Gringo said to run a 6:15p marathon,you need to get used to running at 5:25/30p in races and training.

I plan to use the very same program of specific marathon training that i used for Cork,just adjust the paces and maybe throw in a few extra miles.
My plan was 55-60m a week up to the last 2 weeks...i think that if i averaged 60-65 i could break 2:50 in Cork next year.

I will be following this log with interest.

sherdo2010

anyone know where you can get daniels marathon plan! or does he have a book etc!!! does ti give different program's for different pace/targets etc!!!

cheers!!!

sherdo2010

also. keep postin up these training plans etc!! a mate of mine did a 2.55 marathon last year and this was his first time to get under 3 hours. he does one marathon a year if even and F**k all other races. mabye 2 a year!! he wants to go sub 2.50!! runs about 60mile a week on his own all the time. has no knowledge,well little about plans etc!! he doesnt do gels etc!! he only took on water on mile 15 when he did the marathon at 2.55 and at that mabye a few mouthfulls etc!! he lives off rice krispicies and coke. his diet is shocking!!!! he also goes to the gym 3/4 times a week and tones upper body alot (he's 32 and wants to look good)!! i think he wanna forget about the gym to get to under sub 2.50 etc!! he has a 35min 10k and 1.18 half!!! where should he start!!!

Experts lets hear it please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Krusty_Clown

sherdo2010 wrote: »

also. keep postin up these training plans etc!! a mate of mine did a 2.55 marathon last year and this was his first time to get under 3 hours. he does one marathon a year if even and F**k all other races. mabye 2 a year!! he wants to go sub 2.50!! runs about 60mile a week on his own all the time. has no knowledge,well little about plans etc!! he doesnt do gels etc!! he only took on water on mile 15 when he did the marathon at 2.55 and at that mabye a few mouthfulls etc!! he lives off rice krispicies and coke. his diet is shocking!!!! he also goes to the gym 3/4 times a week and tones upper body alot (he's 32 and wants to look good)!! i think he wanna forget about the gym to get to under sub 2.50 etc!! he has a 35min 10k and 1.18 half!!! where should he start!!!

Experts lets hear it please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm!!!! What kind of advice are you looking for!!!!!! Sounds like you have it all sussed!!!!!

He should fix his diet, follow a structure plan, take on more water (if he needs it), but by the sounds of things, he's doing pretty good all on his own. When I ran 2:48, I peaked at 63 miles, so you don't necessarily need to run very high mileage to break 2:50, but you probably do need to run proportionately more mileage than you did for previous marathons. You can't really follow an identical plan and hope for a different result, so you've got to change a variable, and usually the winning strategy is higher mileage. If he's not currently doing 10-15 miles at marathon pace every other week, then he might get some benefit from that too.

Look at the really fast guys up above (heffsarmy, tunguska, etc.). They're running significantly more miles than those of us who are just around the sub 2:50 mark. Coincidence that they're running much faster times? Don't think so!!!!

sherdo2010

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hmm!!!! What kind of advice are you looking for!!!!!! Sounds like you have it all sussed!!!!!

He should fix his diet, follow a structure plan, take on more water (if he needs it), but by the sounds of things, he's doing pretty good all on his own. When I ran 2:48, I peaked at 63 miles, so you don't necessarily need to run very high mileage to break 2:50, but you probably do need to run proportionately more mileage than you did for previous marathons. You can't really follow an identical plan and hope for a different result, so you've got to change a variable, and usually the winning strategy is higher mileage. If he's not currently doing 10-15 miles at marathon pace every other week, then he might get some benefit from that too.

Look at the really fast guys up above (heffsarmy, tunguska, etc.). They're running significantly more miles than those of us who are just around the sub 2:50 mark. Coincidence that they're running much faster times? Don't think so!!!!

he does no rep work. just 6,10,12 miles run's all year round!! he also did the 2.55 just with a normal watch and he now got his garmin 405cx and will this really help make a difference to traning if he's running to pace all the time!!

Krusty_Clown

Well, yes. If he runs to pace all of the time, he will probably find that he starts going backwards. You can't run at marathon pace all of the time. It sounds like he has a lot of potential.

Don't mean to be rude, but you really have to get your exclamation marks under control. It's hard to tell where you're asking a question or making a statement. Sorry.

--amadeus--

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Look at the really fast guys up above (heffsarmy, tunguska, etc.). They're running significantly more miles than those of us who are just around the sub 2:50 mark. Coincidence that they're running much faster times? Don't think so!!!!

I wonder how the time training compares though? As you get faster you can fit more miles in to the same training timeframe whereas for us slower runners attempting to match thier mileage could involve 10 or 20% more of a time commitment (Daniels discusses this in his book and reccomends you adjust mileage to suit pace)

That said I would suspect that the Heffs & T's of this world probably do both more time and more mileage and my lazy ploy at being lazy might not work...

Krusty_Clown

A good rule of thumb would be to factor in an extra hour for every 10 miles of running. However, the real cost is in the changing, showering and stretching. If you skip the showers, you're sorted. I reckon there are other costs too. For example you need more sleep, more calories, and there's probably a fanily, work and social cost too (opportunity cost).

seanynova

tunguska wrote: »

The Long marathon paced runs have been traded in for Daniels' sessions whereby I'll do 2 x 22mile runs per week, which each one of these been broken down into Threshold and marathon pace intervals. I mean once you get to Phase IV you'll be doing purely marathon paced runs aswell but the most you'll cover will be 15miles at Marathon pace. All other runs are done at easy pace. So you're basically just talking about 2 hard sessons/week. But at 22 miles, theyre monster sessions.
If I were you Amadeus I'd follow Daniels's elite plan. Its a very straight forward, no nonsense schedule. Although with the 2 x 22miler T-pace and M-pace sessions, plus the 22 mile long run, you'd be looking at 100miles/week all in all with the easy runs added in aswell.

Although having said that, I think 2:55 is a soft target for you. You should be looking at having a good crack at sub 2:50, to make it really worth your while. I think 70miles a week is the minmum requirement if you wanna go 2:45 and beyond.

hey tunguska, have you used daniels elite plan? if so, at what level do you think one should be at before switching to the elite plan?

would say a 2:55 marathoner be better off with the Plan A and an anything below a 2:45 marathoner find more gains with the elite plan*? just as beginer might be better off with a hal hingdon plan for example.


* using time training adjusted as per daniels recommendation - not distance specific training.

was just reading through it and it seams fairly demanding even when time adjusted. points to note are the time spent at MAR pace, 6 big MAR(PMP) sessions with 5min tempo break, and the Q2 sessions are more varied - Plan A has a block of 6 interval session in the first 6 weeks and its tempo every week after that. Elite plan has alternating Interval, Tempo every other week.

Gringo78

seanynova wrote: »

hey tunguska, have you used daniels elite plan? if so, at what level do you think one should be at before switching to the elite plan?

would say a 2:55 marathoner be better off with the Plan A and an anything below a 2:45 marathoner find more gains with the elite plan*? just as beginer might be better off with a hal hingdon plan for example.


* using time training adjusted as per daniels recommendation - not distance specific training.

was just reading through it and it seams fairly demanding even when time adjusted. points to note are the time spent at MAR pace, 6 big MAR(PMP) sessions with 5min tempo break, and the Q2 sessions are more varied - Plan A has a block of 6 interval session in the first 6 weeks and its tempo every week after that. Elite plan has alternating Interval, Tempo every other week.

Haven't gone through the exact differences between Plan A & Elite Plan but I would imagine it would really depend on your previous running. You can increase weekly mileage and/or increase weekly intensity to get performance gains. Daniels so far as I know doesn't really mention what your weekly peak mileage should be to do the elite plan but he mentions 90mpw as a benchmark for entering straight into Phase II of the plan so I'd take 90mpw would be what he figured someone should be doing.

Up to 70mpw, you get great performance increases from increasing mileage. however, above this, you need bigger and bigger increases in mileage to have the same effect i.e the increase you get from 40-50mpw might be replicated by only by an increase from 70-95mpw. So when you go above 70mpw you are looking for intensity increases to get the performance improvement. I think the Elite Plan packs in a lot more intensity hence you'd need to be comfortable and have adapted to big mileage of 80-90mpw before also stepping up the intensity. If your weekly mileage is not big enough, then the proportion of intensity of the Q1 & Q2 workouts would be too great and you would maybe get injured.

So i'd say Elite plan if you're going for 80-90mpw, otherwise Plan A.

I also kinda get the impression from Daniels, like Condo131 in another thread, that he ain't really impressed with mileage <90mpw. He also suggests doubledays once you go >50mpw which from reading kiwirunners adventures in Iten, Kenya is exactly what the Kenyans are doing i.e 40mpw very easy running in the mornings before any sort of intense sessions are clocked.

tunguska

seanynova wrote: »

hey tunguska, have you used daniels elite plan? if so, at what level do you think one should be at before switching to the elite plan?

would say a 2:55 marathoner be better off with the Plan A and an anything below a 2:45 marathoner find more gains with the elite plan*? just as beginer might be better off with a hal hingdon plan for example.


* using time training adjusted as per daniels recommendation - not distance specific training.

was just reading through it and it seams fairly demanding even when time adjusted. points to note are the time spent at MAR pace, 6 big MAR(PMP) sessions with 5min tempo break, and the Q2 sessions are more varied - Plan A has a block of 6 interval session in the first 6 weeks and its tempo every week after that. Elite plan has alternating Interval, Tempo every other week.

Its a difficult one to call Seany, so I wouldnt say for definite when a person should use plan A or attempt the elite schedule. Personally I like the look of the elite plan just because its very simple and straight forward(simple as in non complicated). Plan A is just a bit too messy as far as Im concerned. The elite plan has monster 22 mile sessions with M-pace and T-pace intervals(back to back). So I reckon if you can handle those sessions and complete the 24week program you'd be bullett proof come race day.
From the way I read it though, you'd have to be able to handle above 90miles a week to have a proper crack at the elite plan so if you're in anyway dodgy with mileage like that I'd stick with Plan A.

woodchopper

tunguska wrote: »

Its a difficult one to call Seany, so I wouldnt say for definite when a person should use plan A or attempt the elite schedule. Personally I like the look of the elite plan just because its very simple and straight forward(simple as in non complicated). Plan A is just a bit too messy as far as Im concerned. The elite plan has monster 22 mile sessions with M-pace and T-pace intervals(back to back). So I reckon if you can handle those sessions and complete the 24week program you'd be bullett proof come race day.
From the way I read it though, you'd have to be able to handle above 90miles a week to have a proper crack at the elite plan so if you're in anyway dodgy with mileage like that I'd stick with Plan A.

What time are you looking to run in the marathon, whats the mileage going to be like.

Regards
Woodchopper

dermCu

seanynova wrote: »

hey tunguska, have you used daniels elite plan? if so, at what level do you think one should be at before switching to the elite plan?

would say a 2:55 marathoner be better off with the Plan A and an anything below a 2:45 marathoner find more gains with the elite plan*? just as beginer might be better off with a hal hingdon plan for example.


* using time training adjusted as per daniels recommendation - not distance specific training.

was just reading through it and it seams fairly demanding even when time adjusted. points to note are the time spent at MAR pace, 6 big MAR(PMP) sessions with 5min tempo break, and the Q2 sessions are more varied - Plan A has a block of 6 interval session in the first 6 weeks and its tempo every week after that. Elite plan has alternating Interval, Tempo every other week.

I asked myself much the same question when I was looking at these plans - whats the switch over point? I think it depends more on recovery than times(ability) or mileage.
Those are some monster sessions e.g. 5 x 4 x 3 x 1 @ T pace. Thats pretty mean. My thinking was that I'd probably be just about able to do it but it would take me the best part of a week to recover from it. Its something you'd need to build towards so in an ideal world the progression from one plan to the other should almost come naturally.

Of course if you are regularly running 90 miles a week as opposed to 70 you are going to have better powers of recovery but in my opinion its not the key indicator.

If you were a 2:55 marathoner and you had not yet done plan A (and handled it pretty well) I certainly wouldn't advise jumping to the elite plan.

Just my opinion.

seanynova

tunguska wrote: »

Its a difficult one to call Seany, so I wouldnt say for definite when a person should use plan A or attempt the elite schedule. Personally I like the look of the elite plan just because its very simple and straight forward(simple as in non complicated). Plan A is just a bit too messy as far as Im concerned. The elite plan has monster 22 mile sessions with M-pace and T-pace intervals(back to back). So I reckon if you can handle those sessions and complete the 24week program you'd be bullett proof come race day.
From the way I read it though, you'd have to be able to handle above 90miles a week to have a proper crack at the elite plan so if you're in anyway dodgy with mileage like that I'd stick with Plan A.

Gringo78 wrote: »

Haven't gone through the exact differences between Plan A & Elite Plan but I would imagine it would really depend on your previous running. You can increase weekly mileage and/or increase weekly intensity to get performance gains. Daniels so far as I know doesn't really mention what your weekly peak mileage should be to do the elite plan but he mentions 90mpw as a benchmark for entering straight into Phase II of the plan so I'd take 90mpw would be what he figured someone should be doing.

Up to 70mpw, you get great performance increases from increasing mileage. however, above this, you need bigger and bigger increases in mileage to have the same effect i.e the increase you get from 40-50mpw might be replicated by only by an increase from 70-95mpw. So when you go above 70mpw you are looking for intensity increases to get the performance improvement. I think the Elite Plan packs in a lot more intensity hence you'd need to be comfortable and have adapted to big mileage of 80-90mpw before also stepping up the intensity. If your weekly mileage is not big enough, then the proportion of intensity of the Q1 & Q2 workouts would be too great and you would maybe get injured.

So i'd say Elite plan if you're going for 80-90mpw, otherwise Plan A.

I also kinda get the impression from Daniels, like Condo131 in another thread, that he ain't really impressed with mileage <90mpw. He also suggests doubledays once you go >50mpw which from reading kiwirunners adventures in Iten, Kenya is exactly what the Kenyans are doing i.e 40mpw very easy running in the mornings before any sort of intense sessions are clocked.

thanks for the responses, i know what ye mean regarding the mileage, i dont think ill be able for a 90mpw, i was thinking my max would be about 70mpw and with that, most weeks are 80-90%, approx 56-63mpw...which for me is do-able. the average would be down at around 55mpw after taper though, so although 70mpw is high(?) the average along with most weeks are, medium high.

i think id like the try the elite plan, as you say, you would be bullet proof after it, i actually feel the same way about Plan A though but they are both very different plans. Plan A is all tempo based running after a round of interval training early on, where as the Elite plan steps up each type of session a notch as the goal race moves closer. they just seam to be geared towards different "types" of althletes, and work the different systems in a completly different way, which i guess is obvious, as the word - ELITE - is the give away...but for P&D plans, each training schedule is essentially the same difference but with proportional increases across the board.

with regards the monster 22mile PMP/Tempo runs, if these were done on a time basis, then for me the session might "only" be 17-19miles. i did a few 20-22m easy/tempo runs for plan A in my last marathon training and i feel they really stood to me.

maybe the elite plan is more suited to the faster runner though, sub2:45 or even sub2:40, 2:35 etc and even if it is workable it might just be better suited to them anyway? so wher you are at that level, you could use the plan to take things to the next level, which is prob the wrong way of looking at it from reading kiwirunners latest post and Gringos post from earlier in the thread, ie doing the shorter stuff FASTER and building from there.

seanynova

dermCu wrote: »

I asked myself much the same question when I was looking at these plans - whats the switch over point? I think it depends more on recovery than times(ability) or mileage.
Those are some monster sessions e.g. 5 x 4 x 3 x 1 @ T pace. Thats pretty mean. My thinking was that I'd probably be just about able to do it but it would take me the best part of a week to recover from it. Its something you'd need to build towards so in an ideal world the progression from one plan to the other should almost come naturally.

Of course if you are regularly running 90 miles a week as opposed to 70 you are going to have better powers of recovery but in my opinion its not the key indicator.

If you were a 2:55 marathoner and you had not yet done plan A (and handled it pretty well) I certainly wouldn't advise jumping to the elite plan.

Just my opinion.

thats the question - what is the switchover point?

i find that plan A is mighty and found huge gains in my ability, so, i was wondering if i used the elite plan would i see more gains? probably yes, but at what cost - recovery, injury, fatigue?

that is a monster tempo session, a session that if ran at PMP would be considered awesome! run it based on time and for me, even with a very generous tempo pace, the session would take a little less mileage, maybe a total of 11miles @tempo, again not easy but if completed(without major setbacks) you would feel a lot stronger going into a marathon.

tunguska

woodchopper wrote: »

What time are you looking to run in the marathon, whats the mileage going to be like.

Regards
Woodchopper

Its early days yet woodchopper, I wont be starting the marathon program until April, so I wouldnt be making any predictions for a good few months yet. In terms of mileage I'd say 100 - 120(max)per week.

Mac Cormaic

Some very interesting points here. I'm planning to train to run a sub 2.30 marathon in Dublin this year, my pb been only 3.35. The reason is I read a thread on this forum lately that an any average runner can run a 2.30 with the right training program. My training last year never exceeded 20 - 30 miles a week, and there was no consitency. I was taking weeks off at a time (often only did 6 miles), with very little speed work. This year I plan to do a 9 month training program, and increase my mileage up to a basic 50 miles a week, with increased mileage (if I don't have races). At least I'll be able to put the theory to test, and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I only knocked 10 minutes off my times. Some will say it's probably impossible to knock that much time off a marathon in such a short period of time. I'm not sure, but sure we'll see how it goes over the next few months.

http://samhioldanach.blogspot.com/

asimonov

Good luck with your training there, its a big ask tbh. I don't think you should see it as a 9 month training programme, might be better to split it into two phases - I think you have 6 months to try and get as fast as possible over 5k / 10k distance and then do a 12 week marathon programme. The 5k / 10k work will be more intense than the marathon training but you'll get by on 50 miles per week. This will need to jump for your marathon phase to 70 miles minimum a week. Your biggest challenge won't be the race it'll be holding your body together as you increase the stress load over the next 9 months. Best of luck with it - I look forward to tracking your log.

heffsarmy

Mac Cormac, I read your blog. I think your asking alot, on your blog you reckon your current marathon time would be about 4hrs and you plan to knock 10minutes off each month to get you too sub 2.30 for the Dublin marathon, you also seem to be doing more weight training and hiking than running, good luck with your goal.

TheRoadRunner

heffsarmy wrote: »

Mac Cormac, I read your blog. I think your asking alot, on your blog you reckon your current marathon time would be about 4hrs and you plan to knock 10minutes off each month to get you too sub 2.30 for the Dublin marathon, you also seem to be doing more weight training and hiking than running, good luck with your goal.

+1 I also read your log and while nothing is impossible to go from 3.30 odd to 2.30 is a massive jump in such a short space of time. 2.30 averages out at 5.43 per mile. Don't know anything about your previous marathon training regimes so it's hard to comment but a low 3 hour mark might be a better goal for this year. Might be a good idea to contact your local running club or approach somebody who has run fast marathons and let them see your full marathon history and goals and let them decide if they are realistic.

TFBubendorfer

Mac Cormaic, we met in Killarney and (shortly) in the Dublin marathon, so I'd like to say good luck, but Good God, that's one hell of a target. Even going from 3:37 to 2:59 is ambitious, why not aim for this one to start with?

shels4ever

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

Some very interesting points here. I'm planning to train to run a sub 2.30 marathon in Dublin this year, my pb been only 3.35. The reason is I read a thread on this forum lately that an any average runner can run a 2.30 with the right training program. My training last year never exceeded 20 - 30 miles a week, and there was no consitency. I was taking weeks off at a time (often only did 6 miles), with very little speed work. This year I plan to do a 9 month training program, and increase my mileage up to a basic 50 miles a week, with increased mileage (if I don't have races). At least I'll be able to put the theory to test, and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I only knocked 10 minutes off my times. Some will say it's probably impossible to knock that much time off a marathon in such a short period of time. I'm not sure, but sure we'll see how it goes over the next few months.

http://samhioldanach.blogspot.com/

Fairplay on the target and would love to see you do it, basically your aiming to get a top 10 spot in the national marathon with 9 month training :eek: all you need to do is find Pauric Mckinney as the start line and follow him around.

The base these sub 2:30/40 guys have is usually years of running in the legs, While its not impossible for you to do it, I'd agree with the lads here that sub 3 first maybe a better option.. But then again you need to dream too... my sub 2:04 plan started yesterday(well last night) .

Gringo78

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

Some very interesting points here. I'm planning to train to run a sub 2.30 marathon in Dublin this year, my pb been only 3.35. The reason is I read a thread on this forum lately that an any average runner can run a 2.30 with the right training program. My training last year never exceeded 20 - 30 miles a week, and there was no consitency. I was taking weeks off at a time (often only did 6 miles), with very little speed work. This year I plan to do a 9 month training program, and increase my mileage up to a basic 50 miles a week, with increased mileage (if I don't have races). At least I'll be able to put the theory to test, and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I only knocked 10 minutes off my times. Some will say it's probably impossible to knock that much time off a marathon in such a short period of time. I'm not sure, but sure we'll see how it goes over the next few months.

http://samhioldanach.blogspot.com/

I do think the average runner can run 2:30 eventually but on average I would expect it to take 100-120mpw which is a far cry from 50. Also, I would expect it to take 2-3 years and 3-4 cycles of marathon training. So you are probably setting the time target a bit on the overly ambitious side but as you say, you would be delighted with even a 10min improvement if thats what you get out of the experiment so why not reach for the stars. However, be careful, the worst you can get out of it is an overtraining injury like a stress fracture and be sidelined for a long time - so build things up slowly, enjoy the running and just try to get consistent quality training in. Even if you make extremely slow progress, if you train consistently it will add up to a lot over 8-9 years.

Mac Cormaic

heffsarmy wrote: »

Mac Cormac, I read your blog. I think your asking alot, on your blog you reckon your current marathon time would be about 4hrs and you plan to knock 10minutes off each month to get you too sub 2.30 for the Dublin marathon, you also seem to be doing more weight training and hiking than running, good luck with your goal.

I don't disagree with you heffsarmy. My marathon time is about 4.00 hours at present, but I'll have knocked that down to close to 3.30/3.40 in six weeks. That would be my general level of fitness. I said I'm about a 4 hr marathon at present, simply because I've hadn't trained in about 6/7 weeks before the new year. What I would class as weight training would include a variety of exercise, stretches, skipping and so forth. My hiking will slowly turn into mountain runs as the legs build up. I'm doing that principally to build the agility of the legs and strengthen different muscles. I found personally when I run marathons that after mile 17 as the body begins to crunch up, I start to use different muscles and change the posture. I see hill running as an opportunity to run principally on my toes going uphill. As I said it is merely a challenge. If I only knock a few minutes off it wouldn't bother me at all.

Mac Cormaic

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Mac Cormaic, we met in Killarney and (shortly) in the Dublin marathon, so I'd like to say good luck, but Good God, that's one hell of a target. Even going from 3:37 to 2:59 is ambitious, why not aim for this one to start with?

Ah its merely a challenge. Obviously the goal is too target taking 5 minutes off at a time. You never know the blog name could change to sub 3 hour in June (haha), but sure what are we without ambition. I simply put my slow times down to having a poor training schedual. I normally run a 3.15 up to mile 16/17which is quiet good for the small mileage I do in training. Once I build my mileage up to 50 miles a week, I'd say I would comforably run close to a 3.15. Hopefully by mid April. Was good to meet you in Dublin. Hopefully I will see you at a few more marathons in the coming months.

Mac Cormaic

shels4ever wrote: »

Fairplay on the target and would love to see you do it, basically your aiming to get a top 10 spot in the national marathon with 9 month training :eek: all you need to do is find Pauric Mckinney as the start line and follow him around.

The base these sub 2:30/40 guys have is usually years of running in the legs, While its not impossible for you to do it, I'd agree with the lads here that sub 3 first maybe a better option.. But then again you need to dream too... my sub 2:04 plan started yesterday(well last night) .

Thanks shels4ever I'd love to see me do it to . I agree that it will be extremely difficult, but as you use the term yourself 'its not impossible' begs the question can it be done. I'm very relaxed about it. For me to achieve a sub 3.30 at the moment, I'd feel great achievement. It is merely testing if an average runner can do a 2.30 with the right training program over 9 months. But basically I'm hoping that by focusing on the 7 points I posted up on the blog, that I'll be able to knock 10 minutes off my marathon times by perfecting each.

Mac Cormaic

Gringo78 wrote: »

I do think the average runner can run 2:30 eventually but on average I would expect it to take 100-120mpw which is a far cry from 50. Also, I would expect it to take 2-3 years and 3-4 cycles of marathon training. So you are probably setting the time target a bit on the overly ambitious side but as you say, you would be delighted with even a 10min improvement if thats what you get out of the experiment so why not reach for the stars. However, be careful, the worst you can get out of it is an overtraining injury like a stress fracture and be sidelined for a long time - so build things up slowly, enjoy the running and just try to get consistent quality training in. Even if you make extremely slow progress, if you train consistently it will add up to a lot over 8-9 years.

Personally I don't believe an individual needs to run 100-120 mpw to achieve a sub 2.30, although I might be proved wrong on that. I believe in the 3rd phase of training I'll run closer to 70 miles a week, and plan to include a 2 hr cycle on top of that to prevent over exertion on the bones/joints. I'm hoping that off-track running on very rough terrain and running barefoot over grass (comprising at least 33% of all runs), will build a different form of endurance as opposed to extensive mileage. I'll know by mid April the progress I'm making, and if my times are improving in the way I have been calculating.

Krusty_Clown

Hi Mac Cormaic, best of luck with your lofty goal/challenge. As long as you're not too set on your targets and are happy with progress rather than specific milestones, then at least you'll be heading in the right direction.

One question that begs asking though: your training regime (are you following a program?) seems to be based on a monthly marathon improvement, i.e. 10 minutes per month. Are you planning on racing a marathon every month and using this to determine your progress? Your blog mentions multi-marathoning, so I was wondering if this was what you had in mind. You'll have to consider recovery and injury lay-offs if that is the case.

Trying to improve 5 or 10 minutes (or more sizeable chunks) every marathon (note: I didn't say every month!) may work out in the beginning (as your fitness and mileage improve), but with the law of diminishing returns it will be very difficult to continue the same trend as you move up the times. I took 8 minutes off of my marathon time recently, but that took 12 weeks of training. It'll take me a lot more than 12 weeks of training to take off the next 8 minutes.

T runner

--amadeus-- wrote: »

.........
Bundles of really, really good advice above. T. I am using a hybrid P&D and Daniels elite plan for this race actually, possibly as a way of bridging to a full Daniels elite next year maybe. I just don't know if I can commit the time though.
......

Hi Amadeus,

Be careful with this approach, nothing wrong with it though:

For Berlin I did 2 tough sessions per week (10 by 2k) and (thrshols run up to 56 mins). Because the P and D PMP long runs worked well for me in my Paris 2.44 i kept these. That meant running most of the long runs distance at pace from 30-60 secs of goal marathon pace. This was too much.

Count a P and D long run as a hard session and do only 2 of those (hards essions) per week. The remainder should be to accumulate my miles.

if i ahd my time back, i would have done a P and D paced long run every 2nd week. Replacing one of the tougher runs when i did it. LSR every second week also.

What im saying is if you are doinga hybrid, dont add hard sessions to one schedule or another, replace them.

Also for the critical alst 2-4 weeks before taper, ahve a solid plan. You will be tired, a little obsessed with a huge training load at this time. Ad libbing ar altering a plan taht is too flexible during thsi period can end in disaster.

Have your HM race or whatever race you plan for this period in your schedule well in advance, complementing your necessary longer sessions and runs.

Havinga solid plan to follow for this crucial period can be half the work.

Mac Cormaic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Mac Cormaic, best of luck with your lofty goal/challenge. As long as you're not too set on your targets and are happy with progress rather than specific milestones, then at least you'll be heading in the right direction.

One question that begs asking though: your training regime (are you following a program?) seems to be based on a monthly marathon improvement, i.e. 10 minutes per month. Are you planning on racing a marathon every month and using this to determine your progress? Your blog mentions multi-marathoning, so I was wondering if this was what you had in mind. You'll have to consider recovery and injury lay-offs if that is the case.

Trying to improve 5 or 10 minutes (or more sizeable chunks) every marathon (note: I didn't say every month!) may work out in the beginning (as your fitness and mileage improve), but with the law of diminishing returns it will be very difficult to continue the same trend as you move up the times. I took 8 minutes off of my marathon time recently, but that took 12 weeks of training. It'll take me a lot more than 12 weeks of training to take off the next 8 minutes.

I'm putting together my marathon training program at the moment, which will begin at the start of February. This month is bascially just a warm up month. I hope to run a good few marathons in the next six months, and will use the final three months to let the body build in strength and speed. With the training program I have in mind, after intensive marathon-runs, I will switch over to cross-country, cycling and weights for five-day recovery, and then back to road running. For the first six-months I will complete a marathon each month, and will only do marathons in the last three months as training exercises (possibly pacing myself for the first 15 - 18 miles as fast as I can).

The way I see myself knocking off the 90 minutes over nine months is 10 minutes on each of the key aspects of my training program.

1. Intellect (knowing how to run, learning tips).
2. Core training
3. Diet
4. Upper body
5. Legs
6. Comprehensive training
7. Speed work

and two subsequent aspects

8. Races (for the competitive edge)
9. Endurance runs (for stamina and pacing).

A rough estimate of how I see my times be reduced over the nine months would be (at the end of each month)

February - 24 minutes/3.36 marathon (giving me six weeks to recover my natural fitness).
March - 18 minutes/3/18 marathon (I'd probably run close to a 3.18/20 by sticking to a training program; I have run most of my marathons at 3.15 pace up to the 16/18 mile).
April - 12 minutes/3.06 marathon
May - 10 minutes/2.56 marathon
June - 9 minutes/2.47 marathon
July - 7 minutes/2.40 marathon
August - 5 minutes/2.35 marathon
September - 3 minutes/2.32 marathon
October - 2 minutes/2.30 marathon

In my eyes it's really the first 5 months that will be the challenge; and by the end of month 3 I'll be fully able to determine if I can actually achieve the goals I have set. You must remember that I would generally have classed myself as been unfit when running all my marathons before, carrying probably a stone in excess weight, and often doing only 20 miles training at week (with the only speed-work been if I ran in 5 mile races, which just up'd the tempo).

RayCun

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

For the first six-months I will complete a marathon each month, and will only do marathons in the last three months as training exercises

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you could hope to do a full training programme over 9 months while also running a marathon a month to the best of your ability.

To run your best marathon you'll have to taper off beforehand, and if you've run to your limits you'll need to recover after. Where does the training fit in?

john do

I,d just like to say to your man planning on doing the sub 2.30 marathon is go for it. I consider myself as a relative inexperienced runner as I only took up running less than 2 years ago and done my first and only marathon last year in a sub a sub 2.30 time on less than 70 miles average a week only going over 70 when long runs were over 20 miles. I never done speed work but tried to do plenty of races and use them as speed work.
Average week ,
Mon- 7miles 6.40 pace
Tues- 12 miles one week 6 miles the next week- 5.30-5.40
wed-7-9 miles 6.40
Thur-5 miles 5.30-5.40
Fri-9 miles 6.40
Sat-7 miles 6.40
Sun-long run 18-24 miles 6.20-6.30

I would agree with the comment that the average runner could run a sub 2.30 marathon because thats just what I am

heffsarmy

Fair play to you John do, were did you do the marathon. Have you any plans to do another one, I think you should could be a national contendor.

Mac Cormaic

RayCun wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you could hope to do a full training programme over 9 months while also running a marathon a month to the best of your ability.

To run your best marathon you'll have to taper off beforehand, and if you've run to your limits you'll need to recover after. Where does the training fit in?

I think it was on his 25th consecutive marathon Gerry Duffy ran a 3.24 and 4 days later ran a 3.17, after running three marathons in between (all around the 4 hr mark).

He proves that with the right training program recovery can happen in a very short period of time. While my program isn't complete yet, my proposal would be to run a marathon at the end of each month, take it easy for five days, doing a little weights, cross-training and possibly a few small jogs to shift any toxins in the body, and then be full swing back into training. I'd probably aim for a 18 mile jog the following weekend, 22 mile the week after, and 13 miles at fastest pace on the third week. I'd then taper down road runs for the following month's marathon on the 4th weekend. When I did my first marathon I did a 3 hr workout in the gym on the friday night (1 hr weights, 1 hr cycling and 1 hr cross-training) and ran the marathon on the Monday.

Personally I don't believe that a person needs to have several weeks rest before and after marathons, but I plan to find out over the coming months, which get's the most efficient results. If I'm sluggish in a follow up marathon, or my times don't improve I'll change my training program. I'll keep that quiet flexible in terms of how the body is holding up.

shels4ever

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

I think it was on his 25th consecutive marathon Gerry Duffy ran a 3.24 and 4 days later ran a 3.17, after running three marathons in between (all around the 4 hr mark).

He proves that with the right training program recovery can happen in a very short period of time. While my program isn't complete yet, my proposal would be to run a marathon at the end of each month, take it easy for five days, doing a little weights, cross-training and possibly a few small jogs to shift any toxins in the body, and then be full swing back into training. I'd probably aim for a 18 mile jog the following weekend, 22 mile the week after, and 13 miles at fastest pace on the third week. I'd then taper down road runs for the following month's marathon on the 4th weekend. When I did my first marathon I did a 3 hr workout in the gym on the friday night (1 hr weights, 1 hr cycling and 1 hr cross-training) and ran the marathon on the Monday.

Personally I don't believe that a person needs to have several weeks rest before and after marathons, but I plan to find out over the coming months, which get's the most efficient results. If I'm sluggish in a follow up marathon, or my times don't improve I'll change my training program. I'll keep that quiet flexible in terms of how the body is holding up.

So that will build the stamin etc but to go 2:30 you will need to develope your base speed also or do you have natural base speed?

jaymack75

just for reference, according to the mcmillan calculator a 2:30 marathon equates to:

a mile in 4:26
5k in 15:23
5mile in 25:30
10k in 31:58
10mile in 53:33
half mar in 71:07

Mac Cormaic

john do wrote: »

I,d just like to say to your man planning on doing the sub 2.30 marathon is go for it. I consider myself as a relative inexperienced runner as I only took up running less than 2 years ago and done my first and only marathon last year in a sub a sub 2.30 time on less than 70 miles average a week only going over 70 when long runs were over 20 miles. I never done speed work but tried to do plenty of races and use them as speed work.
Average week ,
Mon- 7miles 6.40 pace
Tues- 12 miles one week 6 miles the next week- 5.30-5.40
wed-7-9 miles 6.40
Thur-5 miles 5.30-5.40
Fri-9 miles 6.40
Sat-7 miles 6.40
Sun-long run 18-24 miles 6.20-6.30

I would agree with the comment that the average runner could run a sub 2.30 marathon because thats just what I am

John that's a great boost to my confidence. That kind of mileage looks well within my grasp. It will probably take me 3/4 months to get my times down to 6 minute miles, but I'll have 5 months after that to try and increase mileage and pace to match your training schedual. It's great to see you having done a 2.30. Hopefully your times will improve even more over the next 2 years.

Mac Cormaic

shels4ever wrote: »

So that will build the stamin etc but to go 2:30 you will need to develope your base speed also or do you have natural base speed?

I have included two speed training drills every week in my training program. How do you measure 'base speed'? Is that how fast you can run a mile?

Peterx

A 2.45 marathon is my goal for dublin 2011. Closer to 2.40 would be great but I learned last time out that you get out what you put in and I lack the discipline to fully focus on the one event.

I loved the training with the other marathon runners in my club and would encourage anyone going for an ambitious time (whatever that may be) to train with other lads. The feeling after the monster sessions were over is fantastic.

It would indeed be only mighty if Iten Kiwirunner could pace a 2.45 in Dublin for us after his experiences there!

TheRoadRunner

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

John that's a great boost to my confidence. That kind of mileage looks well within my grasp. It will probably take me 3/4 months to get my times down to 6 minute miles, but I'll have 5 months after that to try and increase mileage and pace to match your training schedual. It's great to see you having done a 2.30. Hopefully your times will improve even more over the next 2 years.

Mac Cormaic do you mind me asking how old you are? Apart from marathons do you have pbs for shorter distances? Good PBS at shorter races could point towards the possibility of a 2.30 marathon.

Your ideas on training are unique and if im honest are not the way i would approach a crack at 2.30 but Best of luck. Maybe you could strat a log in the logs section so we could follow your weekly/monthly progress.

Krusty_Clown

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

John that's a great boost to my confidence. That kind of mileage looks well within my grasp. It will probably take me 3/4 months to get my times down to 6 minute miles, but I'll have 5 months after that to try and increase mileage and pace to match your training schedual. It's great to see you having done a 2.30. Hopefully your times will improve even more over the next 2 years.

If your training strategy works, there's no reason why you should stop at 2:30. Why not keep going? Any idea where your potential lies? 2:20? Faster?

RayCun

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

I think it was on his 25th consecutive marathon Gerry Duffy ran a 3.24 and 4 days later ran a 3.17, after running three marathons in between (all around the 4 hr mark).

I think he's run sub-3 though, so in none of those runs was he racing to his potential.