Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

dukeraoul

dukeraoul wrote: »

Yup. You're mad targeting a sub 2:50 off a 17 min 5k in your first mara . Context my 5k pb was 15:4x and I blew up to a 3:16 in my first mara... Totally different animal. Like said above run some longer races and then think about marathon target not as easy as u might think ! Lol at "bag a 2:5 x "...

Actually just skimmed yer log tbh you and I would have similar backgrounds pb wise . I ran some decent times from 17-20 then took 12 years off - when I came back running 17 min 5 ks was no prob either but the marathon takes a lot of build up (over a couple years ) to get right...

DarByrne1980

dukeraoul wrote: »

Yup. You're mad targeting a sub 2:50 off a 17 min 5k in your first mara . Context my 5k pb was 15:4x and I blew up to a 3:16 in my first mara... Totally different animal. Like said above run some longer races and then think about marathon target not as easy as u might think ! Lol at "bag a 2:5 x "...

ha ha, yeah I now its now going to be easy and ill have to build up but I'm not going to be in awe of the 3hr barrier like a lot of posters i see on here

KielyUnusual

RunForestRun wrote: »

Cheers KU. I think I'll probably do a MP session on Wednesday this week, possibly incorporating a few slightly faster miles. At the weekend, I'll hopefully do an easier 20 miler, without hitting MP in them. The weekend after that, it'll be the Novice Cross country 6k, but I'll likely need to fill it out to about 18-20 miles. Hopefully, I'll manage to fit in a 20 miler with 13/14 MP miles also. The only issue is that session may need to wait until just 15 days before the race, hence the reason why I'm considering trying to make hay on the day of the Novice race. Any suggestions?

I wouldn't see 15 days out being a big issue for your last big session but then everybody is different on these sort of things. Definitely think its important to get the 13-14 mile MP run in, even if its not part of a longer run. Could get it in mid week with a mile or two warm up and warm down either side. Will you be doing the patented 8-10 miles at MP a week or so before the race? Always liked that one and then really back it off after that for the final week.

ThePiedPiper

I'm not sure if people who are capable of running under 3 hours are in awe of it. I think that the people who eventually go under 3 respect the arbitrary time barrier. When my marathon PB was 3:00:20, I was foolhardy enough to think I could go out and smash a 2:55, made a total balls of it. People like KielyUnusual would be, pun excused, unusual, in going from 3:1x to 2:48. People who run sub 2:50 on debut marathons are extremely rare, and I would respectfully suggest would have very good 10k (sub 35 at least) and half marathons (1:20 at least) times to their name.

That said, I do love to see people come along here every so often who effectively throw convention out the window. I'll look up your log to follow the progress. Best of luck with it.

ThePiedPiper

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I wouldn't see 15 days out being a big issue for your last big session but then everybody is different on these sort of things. Definitely think its important to get the 13-14 mile MP run in, even if its not part of a longer run. Could get it in mid week with a mile or two warm up and warm down either side. Will you be doing the patented 8-10 miles at MP a week or so before the race? Always liked that one and then really back it off after that for the final week.

Yeah, I don't plan on breaking too far away from tradition on that front. Effectively, I'm after doing 17 miles with 13 averaging MP twice over the last couple of weeks. For that reason, I'm backing off this weekend, and will attack it again in a couple of weeks. I'd think that 15 days is plenty of recovery time also, so will likely go with this timeframe.

DarByrne1980

Thanks forest. Sure what's the worst that can happen

blockic

DarByrne1980 wrote: »

Thanks forest. Sure what's the worst that can happen

Haha...I wouldn't dismiss the time so easily. Agree with RFR. Those who are capable of it may not be in awe of it but sure to respect it. For what it's worth, pretty bad things can happen. Talking from experience.

dublin runner

DarByrne1980 wrote: »

ha ha, yeah I now its now going to be easy and ill have to build up but I'm not going to be in awe of the 3hr barrier like a lot of posters i see on here

I think that's a pretty good attitude to have as long as you use it correctly. Too many people build it up too much and almost become scared of it.

Regarding your 5km. I personally believe that there is very little to be gained from predicting a marathon time off a 5km time. There are just too many variables. In fact, I would also extend that to the half marathon distance as well.

Chucking a time into McMillian etc can be good fun but what does it really mean? In my humble opinion, very little.

DogSlySmile

Anyone interested in getting together and forming an unofficial boards.ie 2:50 pace group? Just throwing it out there as an idea, would be good to work together as a group seeing as a few of us may be heading for the same time.

bazb11

Hi all, my question, where do i get a 16 - 20 week training schedule for a 2.45 marathon, something i can print and stick on the fridge and try to follow? long time reader of all threads running related, cheers

Rolex_

Depends on a few things.... what kind of base you are coming from. What's your current PB? How long ago? What kind of mileage were you doing then and what kind of sessions? What's your baseline level of aerobic fitness like now compared to then?

One-size doesn't fit all.. But 16-20 weeks is plenty of time if coming from a good starting point...

bazb11

Thanks Rolex, running with a club, done Dublin in 2016 in October, 2.56, Derry in June, 2.57, have been running consistently again since Christmas, around 40 + Mike's per week. I hope you be sub 17 for 5k in a couple o weeks, have dipped under before but I need to work in the speed. I suppose I'm looking for an easier option but for previous two marathons I followed asics 3 hour plan, peaked at 65 mile in a weak, and it done the job. Unknown territory here so I guess I'd like to see what a plan for 2.45 looks like, cheers

Rolex_

A few things. There's no "magic plan" for 2.35 v 2.45 v 2.55 etc. Gains are gradual based on your natural ability and the quality and volume of your training, and on your ability to avoid injury.

While 2:56 is a very good time, 2:45 is a big step up and most runners won't achieve it in one year unless they are relatively new to consistent proper training and have yet to start to "plateau". How many marathons have you trained consistently for and how rapidly have your times come down?

The biggest single predictor of improved marathon performance is increased training volume IMHO. There are no shortcuts. Doing the right "key sessions" will help, but not as much as increasing your training volume by 10-20% will.

Many runners (including good ones) leave it too late to jack up the volume. Good October Marathons are made in March, April, May and June with lots and lots of easy miles (hopefully avoiding injury) with a reasonable sprinkling of tempo and marathon-paced stuff added in. The fine tuning can take place in the last 12 -14 weeks if the aerobic base is good enough

I would say don't get too hung up on a specific programme unless you really need it as a motivating tool to keep training. Instead of looking at 65 miles per week as your peak, look on it as your Spring baseline mileage if work/family/other commitments allow.

Dublin9210

dukeraoul wrote: »

Yup. You're mad targeting a sub 2:50 off a 17 min 5k in your first mara . Context my 5k pb was 15:4x and I blew up to a 3:16 in my first mara... Totally different animal. Like said above run some longer races and then think about marathon target not as easy as u might think ! Lol at "bag a 2:5 x "...

5k time has no relevance to marathon times if training with the marathon as a target.I ran 18.12 for 5k a few weeks out from Clonakilty marathon(2.47)
And my fastest was 17.28.Running in tired legs for my 5k's.
McMillan gives an idea of what type of athlete you are i.e. Speed v endurance.
Just cause you ran 15.4x and bombed in the marathon doesn't mean everyone is the same.

bazb11

Hi Rolex, thanks again, that advice makes sense alright, this'll be number 5 if it works out, the first two attempts bring a case of getting around the distance just.. I've spent some time looking on forums blogs etc and it seems some people can go sub 2.50 / 2.45 on 70 ish miles a week, others are talking 100 for similar times, with the lesser maybe being in the minorty of cases.. I know I defo won't have the time come July onward for massive miles, so I need to find something between. Presently ticking along at 45-55 miles per week, majority done at around 7.20ish. From my reading all this is fine but it would seem that the real key is a MP run weekly, probably Saturday, throughout schedule. Any thoughts on distances here, maxing out at ?? Thanks

Rolex_

bazb11 wrote: »

Hi Rolex, thanks again, that advice makes sense alright, this'll be number 5 if it works out, the first two attempts bring a case of getting around the distance just.. I've spent some time looking on forums blogs etc and it seems some people can go sub 2.50 / 2.45 on 70 ish miles a week, others are talking 100 for similar times, with the lesser maybe being in the minorty of cases.. I know I defo won't have the time come July onward for massive miles, so I need to find something between. Presently ticking along at 45-55 miles per week, majority done at around 7.20ish. From my reading all this is fine but it would seem that the real key is a MP run weekly, probably Saturday, throughout schedule. Any thoughts on distances here, maxing out at ?? Thanks

Hi bazb, I ran 2:45 last year off about 70 miles per week and I'm over 50. I was a late starter (first marathon 2011) and have continued to improve, generally increasing average mileage by 10-15% in each marathon cycle. I avoid doing doubles until and unless the mileage is hitting 70 or so. A fair bit of recent research suggesting optimum length of easy run is 60-80 minutes... so a lot of 8-10 mile easy runs at anything from 7:00-7:50 pace depending on fatigue/proximity of next hard session etc.
I have become a big believer in MP runs and my training group generally does them on alternate weekends, doing an easy long run on the alternate weekend. We do MP long runs fortnightly pretty much all year round - as short as 6M@MP off season and peaking at 20M with 16@MP done twice before last Autumn's marathon. All our grouup recorded significant PBs with that approach

Duanington

bazb11 wrote: »

Hi Rolex, thanks again, that advice makes sense alright, this'll be number 5 if it works out, the first two attempts bring a case of getting around the distance just.. I've spent some time looking on forums blogs etc and it seems some people can go sub 2.50 / 2.45 on 70 ish miles a week, others are talking 100 for similar times, with the lesser maybe being in the minorty of cases.. I know I defo won't have the time come July onward for massive miles, so I need to find something between. Presently ticking along at 45-55 miles per week, majority done at around 7.20ish. From my reading all this is fine but it would seem that the real key is a MP run weekly, probably Saturday, throughout schedule. Any thoughts on distances here, maxing out at ?? Thanks

Have meant to check in for months now - any news on how this went?

bazb11

Duanington wrote: »

Have meant to check in for months now - any news on how this went?

hi Duanington, it didn't go to plan on the day, 2.53, whilst still a pb, wasn't what I had trained for. On the day I found the going tough and at the half way point I had hoped to push on but the legs weren't able to respond. Pre race I had readjusted my target time to sub 2.50 but this was still overly ambitious. With the benefit of hindsight, I can say that I didn't do enough miles at MP and my mile repeats were too fast, certainly faster than they needed to be. At the start of October I had ran a xc race and might've left a bit behind me there. Hope this helps if you're targeting something similar

Duanington

bazb11 wrote: »

hi Duanington, it didn't go to plan on the day, 2.53, whilst still a pb, wasn't what I had trained for. On the day I found the going tough and at the half way point I had hoped to push on but the legs weren't able to respond. Pre race I had readjusted my target time to sub 2.50 but this was still overly ambitious. With the benefit of hindsight, I can say that I didn't do enough miles at MP and my mile repeats were too fast, certainly faster than they needed to be. At the start of October I had ran a xc race and might've left a bit behind me there. Hope this helps if you're targeting something similar

Thanks for the reply - sorry it didn't go to plan, not far off it all the same, well done

Peterx

Sub 2.50 and beyond.....
Great to see this thread pop back up on the main page.

I have entered for Dublin and have done specific training there recently amid the usual white noise of a hillrunning summer season of racing and cycling to races.

First actual tester will be this Saturday at the Tullamore half, going to go out at about 3.50min/km pace (81 min half) and hopefully pick it up a little after half-way. Various calculators reckon a sub 82 minute half marathon is realistically required for sub 2.50 on the big stage so we'll see.

did 6 x 1k last night trying to not go balls out in about 3.33min/km pace for first 4 and 3.37min/km for last two so we'll see.

If the opposite happens and the pace gets slower after half-way just forget you ever saw this post

jfh

Peterx wrote: »

Sub 2.50 and beyond.....
Great to see this thread pop back up on the main page.

I have entered for Dublin and have done specific training there recently amid the usual white noise of a hillrunning summer season of racing and cycling to races.

First actual tester will be this Saturday at the Tullamore half, going to go out at about 3.50min/km pace (81 min half) and hopefully pick it up a little after half-way. Various calculators reckon a sub 82 minute half marathon is realistically required for sub 2.50 on the big stage so we'll see.

did 6 x 1k last night trying to not go balls out in about 3.33min/km pace for first 4 and 3.37min/km for last two so we'll see.

If the opposite happens and the pace gets slower after half-way just forget you ever saw this post

just out of interest, will you continue racing the hills or will it affect the marathon?
for me personally, i had to go under sub 1:20 half(1:18) but you prob have the endurance after the hills?

Peterx

The hillraces (and the CX) are on the back burner till after the Marathon.
I struggle with the constant steady state pace of the roads to be honest, I am much more suited to the changing effort/pace of hills/cx.
Sure it will be fun finding out how it goes.
Are you racing it yourself?

jfh

Missed Dublin entry, too much thinking about it! Frankfurt is the back up, but won't be sub 2:50, last few years have been hit & miss with injuries & life.
Would like to stick in a few hill races myself but think the end goal would suffer.

Peterx

Posted this in sub 3 thread also
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/
Anyone any opinions on it, good , bad or indifferent....

It has put the spotlight on mileage big time. What I took from it was you can bluff your way to short hillruns or up to half marathon on the road with low mileage but for a good strong marathon you should either be supremely talented (0.05%) or get the miles in (99.5%)

I now plan to get the miles in

squinn2912

I know I’ve just dismissed it but I played about with it and conservatively adjusted things to reflect race conditions and it’s not too far off the mark. I do still think it’s a bit pessimistic which might be good during preparation at least. Thanks for sharing it!

Duanington

Peterx wrote: »

Posted this in sub 3 thread also
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/
Anyone any opinions on it, good , bad or indifferent....

It has put the spotlight on mileage big time. What I took from it was you can bluff your way to short hillruns or up to half marathon on the road with low mileage but for a good strong marathon you should either be supremely talented (0.05%) or get the miles in (99.5%)

I now plan to get the miles in

Not sure what to read into it, it gave me 2.59 based on my 2016 marathon prep....I ran 2.58 but probably finished too fresh on reflection.

Mileage seems to be the big variable alright

Peterx

Duanington wrote: »

Not sure what to read into it, it gave me 2.59 based on my 2016 marathon prep....I ran 2.58 but probably finished too fresh on reflection.

Mileage seems to be the big variable alright

Sounds pretty accurate to me so.
But the big question is what time did the other prediction calculators give you

What did your half marathon time x2 + 10 minutes give you for your 2016 half pace, for comparison purposes?

RayCun

I put in my numbers from 2014, it's predicting a good bit slower than I actually ran

Duanington

Peterx wrote: »

Sounds pretty accurate to me so.
But the big question is what time did the other prediction calculators give you

What did your half marathon time x2 + 10 minutes give you for your 2016 half pace, for comparison purposes?

2.54 from memory

Jmcmen

Peterx wrote: »

Posted this in sub 3 thread also
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/
Anyone any opinions on it, good , bad or indifferent....

It has put the spotlight on mileage big time. What I took from it was you can bluff your way to short hillruns or up to half marathon on the road with low mileage but for a good strong marathon you should either be supremely talented (0.05%) or get the miles in (99.5%)

I now plan to get the miles in

Put in this years training and time and it gave me a time 16sec better than my PB and nearly 4mins slower than my Target of 2:45

Then Put in last years training and times and it gave me 5min slower than I did for the PB of 2:49:D

So yes Confused. Will let you know in 3 weeks though