Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

squinn2912

AuldManKing wrote: »

They are tough sessions - but you don't just go & knock them out - there's a build up to the ones below from previous weeks - its all progression.

Tempo about 6.10/mile give or take.

God man you’re flying! Way in front of me! Well done on getting through that

healy1835

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just tricking away since on about 30 MPW. Some sessions. Have upped it since new year. This week’s gonna be about 55 miles. Following similar plan. Two mideeek sessions tues 7 miles about 6:25s, tonight 8 x 800s sub 3 mins. Everything else is easy pace. What you think?

Would you not get a bit stale repeating the same sessions every week? The longer tempos and 800's would be some of my favourite sessions but would there not be a case of diminishing returns if you keep sticking them in the plan? You ran a big negative split in DCM if I recall, so your endurance and strength are there Are you going long at all at the weekends?

Bahanaman

Would love to have a crack at the 2:50.. Did 2:54 in Frankfurt in 2015 for my pb. Haven't been able to fully commit to a similar type training effort since. Entered in Dublin which is a much tougher course i.e. not pancake flat so if I could manage a pb by maybe a min then possibly I might have a chance next year. I'll be 45 next Jan..

squinn2912

healy1835 wrote: »

Would you not get a bit stale repeating the same sessions every week? The longer tempos and 800's would be some of my favourite sessions but would there not be a case of diminishing returns if you keep sticking them in the plan? You ran a big negative split in DCM if I recall, so your endurance and strength are there Are you going long at all at the weekends?

Oh my sessions will change that was just this week. Nothing too radical though.
Yea 1:29 then 1:26 roughly in Dublin. Second half maybe slightly quicker on the watch. Just in from 14 so not very long yet. Moving into 12 weeks to go so I’m happy enough no panic

squinn2912

Going to sit down and make out a 12 week programme this evening after my 60 min easy run. I'm going to be doing the long runs at easy pace for now and tempo on tuesday with interval stuff on thursday. One session I like is 4x10 mins at marathon pace minus 20 secs. Any other good sessions you guys swear by to make it into my programme? I'll share all I'm doing if anyone wants it.

healy1835

squinn2912 wrote: »

Going to sit down and make out a 12 week programme this evening after my 60 min easy run. I'm going to be doing the long runs at easy pace for now and tempo on tuesday with interval stuff on thursday. One session I like is 4x10 mins at marathon pace minus 20 secs. Any other good sessions you guys swear by to make it into my programme? I'll share all I'm doing if anyone wants it.

I always enjoy the longer intervals, 6x1Mile or 3x2 Miles. I'd say the most satisfying session I've ever put in was an 8 Mile Tempo @MP-20secs. Really hilly track and the weather was atrocious but once I'd got it over and done with I was set for anything. Repeated the session in the following block for DCM just gone and did it 2 mins faster but it was over a flatter loop and didn't give me the same satisfaction wouldn't have had too many longer tempos in any one block, but when they show up I know that they're important.

Also I'd usually be given a 400's session midweek before a warm up race.....

BeepBeep67

squinn2912 wrote: »

Going to sit down and make out a 12 week programme this evening after my 60 min easy run. I'm going to be doing the long runs at easy pace for now and tempo on tuesday with interval stuff on thursday. One session I like is 4x10 mins at marathon pace minus 20 secs. Any other good sessions you guys swear by to make it into my programme? I'll share all I'm doing if anyone wants it.

The cut-down MP session 4-5 weeks out is a good tester.
5 miles @ MP; 5 mins recovery
4 miles @ MP; 4 mins recovery
3 miles @ MP; 3 mins recovery
2 miles @ MP; 2 mins recovery
1 miles @ MP;
With 2-3 miles w/u; c/d

Duanington

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

The cut-down MP session 4-5 weeks out is a good tester.
5 miles @ MP; 5 mins recovery
4 miles @ MP; 4 mins recovery
3 miles @ MP; 3 mins recovery
2 miles @ MP; 2 mins recovery
1 miles @ MP;
With 2-3 miles w/u; c/d

You can also run that one off 800m recovery throughout, toughy but a goody

squinn2912

Christ you’d want a handy week leading up to that session it’s rough!!

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Christ you’d want a handy week leading up to that session it’s rough!!

It ain't easy, no. But I wonder which is better, that or the 3x5miles@MP with the 800 steady in between. That comes out as 16 miles @ MP really cos the two 800s if you really do 'em steady, you're not losing much time to MP.

I've not done the 5,4,3,2,1 with the 800s......... That would be long alright.

I do think the 3x5 is a great session if you can handle it. I used the 800s between to get some water in and maybe even a gel.

(There is of course the option to just do 16 miles @ MP which I know one sub 2.30 runner here has done on occasion. That way you don't have to worry about nothing but keep going.......)

AuldManKing

Itziger wrote: »

It ain't easy, no. But I wonder which is better, that or the 3x5miles@MP with the 800 steady in between. That comes out as 16 miles @ MP really cos the two 800s if you really do 'em steady, you're not losing much time to MP.

I've not done the 5,4,3,2,1 with the 800s......... That would be long alright.

I do think the 3x5 is a great session if you can handle it. I used the 800s between to get some water in and maybe even a gel.

(There is of course the option to just do 16 miles @ MP which I know one sub 2.30 runner here has done on occasion. That way you don't have to worry about nothing but keep going.......)

My Plan has a 15m@MP coming up - I was going to do Bohermeen and do 13MP there - but a work trip put pay to that.

I was considering doing 3x(4MP+1Steady) but am now thinking of the 5/4/3/2/1 - I done similar with the Steve Way plan previously (based on time, not miles) and it worked very well.

Itziger

AuldManKing wrote: »

My Plan has a 15m@MP coming up - I was going to do Bohermeen and do 13MP there - but a work trip put pay to that.

I was considering doing 3x(4MP+1Steady) but am now thinking of the 5/4/3/2/1 - I done similar with the Steve Way plan previously (based on time, not miles) and it worked very well.

Yeah, I saw you mention that. I think the 3x5 w 800 steady is a very good workout. Not saying the others aren't now.

Duanington

AuldManKing wrote: »

My Plan has a 15m@MP coming up - I was going to do Bohermeen and do 13MP there - but a work trip put pay to that.

I was considering doing 3x(4MP+1Steady) but am now thinking of the 5/4/3/2/1 - I done similar with the Steve Way plan previously (based on time, not miles) and it worked very well.

How afar out will that be from race day A?

AuldManKing

Duanington wrote: »

How afar out will that be from race day A?

7 weeks out and another one at 3 weeks out.
I wont do a straight 15MP on either of them.

Itziger

AuldManKing wrote: »

My Plan has a 15m@MP coming up - I was going to do Bohermeen and do 13MP there - but a work trip put pay to that.

I was considering doing 3x(4MP+1Steady) but am now thinking of the 5/4/3/2/1 - I done similar with the Steve Way plan previously (based on time, not miles) and it worked very well.

There's something weird about how our minds and bodies work. If you said to me, do a 15 miles MP run, I'd think, WOW!! 15 miles at MP in one go........

But if you say, do a Half at MP I'm thinking why not race it....... at about 15 seconds a km faster!!!

Shows you the power of race environment. I couldn't do a Half on my own at half pace. It also shows you that I'm a silly bugger I suppose.

BeepBeep67

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

The cut-down MP session 4-5 weeks out is a good tester.
5 miles @ MP; 5 mins recovery
4 miles @ MP; 4 mins recovery
3 miles @ MP; 3 mins recovery
2 miles @ MP; 2 mins recovery
1 miles @ MP;
With 2-3 miles w/u; c/d

Dug that one out for old time's sake #funtimes
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1073418983

It was part of a heavy block of training
Feb 13th 2h50 @ 6:51 pace
Feb 16th 10M with 6 @ tempo 6:14
Feb 18th mid-week MSR @ 7:33
Feb 20th 20 with 12 @ 6:29
Feb 23 mid-week MSR @ 7:28
Feb 25 3k race in 9:58
Feb 28 Long 22 @ 7:25
March 3rd 4 x 1200
Mar 5th session above
March 8th 2 x 3M (6:02/5:52)
March 17 HM in 79

They were the make or break you weeks in the plan

squinn2912

So how would your week look in the build up to a long run like that? I do almost all of the long runs easy with the exception of 3-4 where the last few miles will have MP

BeepBeep67

squinn2912 wrote: »

So how would your week look in the build up to a long run like that? I do almost all of the long runs easy with the exception of 3-4 where the last few miles will have MP

The was at the end of 4 big weeks for 'me', accumulated fatigue.
The long runs were alternated between easy/steady and ones with quality in there.

squinn2912

That's eye watering stuff. I don't think I could do it. The two sessions per day would break my heart. I'm 15/20 miles behind that even at peak I'm only on 70 or so miles. What time were you going for in that programme?

BeepBeep67

squinn2912 wrote: »

That's eye watering stuff. I don't think I could do it. The two sessions per day would break my heart. I'm 15/20 miles behind that even at peak I'm only on 70 or so miles. What time were you going for in that programme?

Low 2:50's, I was in shape to hit it, 86 at halfway, but had stomach issues / reflux from 14 miles, clung on for an 89 in the 2nd half.

squinn2912

So you ended up with 2:55? Or is my maths gone nuts? Wuold you consider that you may race better in Autumn than Spring? I'm convinced of it. On my good day I did 89 then 86 give or take but I was deliberately conservative on the way out then dropped the hammer for the last 10 miles. But we're different levels of ability and training, I feel. You should be finishing well ahead of me. What's up next for you?

BeepBeep67

squinn2912 wrote: »

So you ended up with 2:55? Or is my maths gone nuts? Wuold you consider that you may race better in Autumn than Spring? I'm convinced of it. On my good day I did 89 then 86 give or take but I was deliberately conservative on the way out then dropped the hammer for the last 10 miles. But we're different levels of ability and training, I feel. You should be finishing well ahead of me. What's up next for you?

2:55 - yep.
I think my candle burns a little brightly for marathon running.
I've gone back to my roots, indoor track for the spring and outdoor track / shorter road races for the summer.

Jmcmen

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

The was at the end of 4 big weeks for 'me', accumulated fatigue.
The long runs were alternated between easy/steady and ones with quality in there.

Holy Moly.....Did I make 16 different pairs of shoes there!!! Are you Imelda Marcos Beepbeep? Some detail in that, fair play.

Great thread, good to see a bit of action on it again.

AMK you are fairly flying it at the moment. Will catch you soon for a gallop in the park

AuldManKing

Jmcmen wrote: »

Holy Moly.....Did I make 16 different pairs of shoes there!!! Are you Imelda Marcos Beepbeep? Some detail in that, fair play.

Great thread, good to see a bit of action on it again.

AMK you are fairly flying it at the moment. Will catch you soon for a gallop in the park

Cheers Jmcmen - Any insights into your latest training endeavors? PS was telling me that they are intense.

Jmcmen

AuldManKing wrote: »

Cheers Jmcmen - Any insights into your latest training endeavors? PS was telling me that they are intense.

Tis going ok lad, alot more sessions than I have ever done before but alot less long longs runs. Shorter long runs at greater pace which is nice. Enjoying the change, hopefully will get rewards out of it but there is alot coming up in the next couple of weeks to get in the way of training

Limpy

The recovery in the 5,4,3,2,1 is that active or rest?.

Regarding Heart rate/Effort for the session, would going out of threshold zone and into anaerobic mean maybe the pace is to hot? I would imagine going into zone 5 would mean it wouldn't be sustainable when the big day comes..thoughts?

Itziger

Limpy wrote: »

The recovery in the 5,4,3,2,1 is that active or rest?.

Regarding Heart rate/Effort for the session, would going out of threshold zone and into anaerobic mean maybe the pace is to hot? I would imagine going into zone 5 would mean it wouldn't be sustainable when the big day comes..thoughts?

Limpy, I've never really worked with HR and Zones but, yes, going into Zone 5 suggests it's a tough pace to hold. That said, I often find marathon pace tough to hold. Sometimes it seems as bad as HM pace although of course it's not in reality.

Flynnboslice

Limpy wrote: »

The recovery in the 5,4,3,2,1 is that active or rest?.

Regarding Heart rate/Effort for the session, would going out of threshold zone and into anaerobic mean maybe the pace is to hot? I would imagine going into zone 5 would mean it wouldn't be sustainable when the big day comes..thoughts?

Should be run off effort. If you are fresh and are working too hard with no underlying issues (illness, tiredness, stress, wind, hydration,) I would say it is time to go back to the drawing board.

If effort is right but paces are slow in middle of a heavy week I wouldn't worry too much

One session won't tell you much without the overall plan as context

Limpy

I've done 12 straight at marathon pace. Had about 25-30 beats to spare off my max of 180. I reckon I could do the 5,4,3,2, 1 I just don't know if I could manage it over 26.2.

That's why I was wondering about effort, how hard did it feel for you and how did you perform in the marathon that followed?

BeepBeep67

Limpy wrote: »

I've done 12 straight at marathon pace. Had about 25-30 beats to spare off my max of 180. I reckon I could do the 5,4,3,2, 1 I just don't know if I could manage it over 26.2.

That's why I was wondering about effort, how hard did it feel for you and how did you perform in the marathon that followed?

It should feel tough, especially if doing solo, but easy to get your head around mentally. After the 5M, you've completed 1/3 of the session.
You'll be in the middle of heavy training, you won't have taper and you won't have the race day buzz and adrenaline.
The recoveries are active, you keep rolling at easy pace, about 60 to 90 seconds slower than PMP.